11yo girl Dies - God Vs. Science

reply to post by muzzleflash


Muzzleflash.. At the start of your posting you sound a bit angry. I think you misunderstand me.. But now that you have had some time your further replies are much better and more to what I was thinking..

I do not support government telling you what to put into your body.
I wrote the Thread on that issue right here!

I do support free religions! Yes even Scientology!! I have studied them closely.. And happen to feel they like many other religions have some good points.. Yet some very dark and closed end points.

I support science.. Yet I know deep down, science can not offer us all the answers. Nor can religion.. But together.. religion and science together just think of what could happen! And how far we would go as a people!

I do not support people to hurt children just becasue they want to "belive" in something like prayer, that can not be tested like medications can be tested.
You can belive what ever you want!! But once it starts hurting others, then we have a problem. And comman sense tells you to jump in and save the child!!
Being a good person of this world would tell you to jump in and get envolved! However far to many things in this world, have broken us all up into little shards.. Little side show groups, who laugh and hate eachother. Divison is the work of the grand evils of this world..Call it what you want.. Unbalance, evil, the devil, choas.
Either way.. IM glad you came to understand our point in this thread, and I wish you well!

My biggest point being.. What the hell is going on with that church they go too??? Churches are suppose to help eachother out! Not keep eachother in the darkness, and only hold prayer groups!
Most churches I know of.. really go out and DO GOOD! Not just sit on their butts and pray..
No I know many great churches who go out of their way to help people.
I think its grand!!!

So please understand.. Im not putting down religion as a whole here.
Im very spiritual person.. And very deep with my thoughts.
I just hope you guys can see that now, and realize IM not your foe. We pretty much all fight on the same side at the end of the day.
Most of us.. Not all of us.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by zysin5]

This is a horrible thing that happened but that is their choice on how to live. The mainstream media is not exactly jumping all over the stories on when things like this go right. You only hear about the people who die you will never see a news story on how prayer or any unconventional medical treatments worked. You should check out Psychopolitics, it was a manual for psychiatrists on how to run their practices. The only things it said should be attacked and commited were people who did not agree with psychiatry and those who practicing Christian Science and Dianetics. With all the drug companies paying large sums of money to the networks (ever notice how there seems to be at LEAST one anti-depressant add every comercial break) is it any wonder on why stories like this are put up for everyone to see?

reply to post by YoungStalin

This is a horrible thing that happened but that is their choice on how to live.

Right. Its their choice on how to Live their life. I express live.. Well because it means you stay alive!

Someone needs to step in when others are put in harms way!

The girl was put in harms way, and suffered death. Now was that this little girls choice? I think not.. It was the parents choice to let their child die!

Please go back and read the full thread, and read my replies.. It will help you understand where I am comming from.

they missed the point of a miracle: that it is used when God sees it necessary in his plan for an individual or a group or company of persons. Diabetes is something easily treated, and it is very selfish, if not rude, to ask god to make her better when the parents are fully capable to drive her to the local hospital. it would be like asking, "dear God, could you pass the gravy?" when it is right next to you.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by zysin5]

Originally posted by YoungStalin
This is a horrible thing that happened but that is their choice on how to live. The mainstream media is not exactly jumping all over the stories on when things like this go right.

When do things like this ever go right? Is there any real proof of prayer ever healing someone of terminal illness?

Originally posted by YoungStalin
This is a horrible thing that happened but that is their choice on how to live. The mainstream media is not exactly jumping all over the stories on when things like this go right. You only hear about the people who die you will never see a news story on how prayer or any unconventional medical treatments worked. You should check out Psychopolitics, it was a manual for psychiatrists on how to run their practices. The only things it said should be attacked and commited were people who did not agree with psychiatry and those who practicing Christian Science and Dianetics. With all the drug companies paying large sums of money to the networks (ever notice how there seems to be at LEAST one anti-depressant add every comercial break) is it any wonder on why stories like this are put up for everyone to see?

It may have been the choice for how the parents wanted to live. They are adults. The child was not their property. They were here caregivers and they had no right to enforce the narrowness of their beliefs upon their children and risk their lives in the process. Spirituality and Science should be holistically going hand in hand.

This is almost murder to me.

This is very sad and just wow how can someone put into words this tragedy. To me their refusal to seek real help is unforgivable. They should be charged with 1st degree murder.

Prayer does not work because if it did you would see amputees running about with sprouting new legs but, that never happens. I'm sorry this is just stone age primitive beliefs that should be left behind.




[edit on 11/1/2009 by toochaos4u]

God what a sad and messed up story. Diabetes is so easily treatable for many. It wasn't like she had some incurable and terminal disease.

I have a diabetic cat and know enough to realize death via untreated diabetes is hidious. They quite literally starve to death. How they could have watched that happen for WEEKS, watched their kid starve and whither away and not do anything is astounding.

They should be brought up on charges.

reply to post by zysin5


IMHO, prayer does heal, on certain occasions. It's not some "God," or the prayer itself that does the healing, it is a molecular change in the body of the sick person and the power of the human being doing it that actually does the trick. However, each person has a life to live, and that cannot be interfered with. If it is time for a person to die to this world, nothing can stop that from happening. You might read some here:
www.born2heal.com...

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

It's not about the parents, it's about the child.
Freedom of religion should not extend the choice to drastically decrease someone's chances of living.
Yay parents have the right to be dumbasses - but what about their children?
Once it crosses that line it should be dealt with.

I agree with that one- its self evident to most of us but in cases like these overtly religious parents should have a 'legal requirement' to do everything in their power to protect/help/cure their child.

Just selfishly projecting their own agenda based beleifs onto young children...and causing them to die in the process is unforgivable.

I honestly beleive these people should be prosecuted as,through
'inaction based on superstition and ignorance' , they were directly responsible for the child's death.

Well when prayer does work it is not given credit because there is no way to prove that prayer worked. Doctors just think the guy was lucky his body fought off the infection or his cancer went into remission. Or it was all because he had faith and the mind is capable of wonderful things. With all things being fair you never see the media criticize the medical community with headlines like "Man dies after 4 painful years of chemo" or "Doctors still trying to stop cancer with medicine". I think the parents should be protected under the freedom of religion. It should be looked into before people make a snap judgement off a 2min news clip. Neglect when i think of it is not providing because you are ignorant or lazy. Now if it is found that the parents worked 24/7 while their daughter was losing her life at home by all means the parents should be put in jail. But if they were using prayer they gave the best care that their religion would allow them.
Freedom of religion does not mean selecting from a preset list that everyone can agree on.

Originally posted by YoungStalin
I think the parents should be protected under the freedom of religion.

Its a great pity the girl was not protected 'from' religion.

If prayer is so powerful then why don't folk jump out of aeroplanes without parachutes?

This girl should have been 'afforded the right to live' and her deluded parents should be prosecuted -it may very well stop another incident like this happening again.

God helps those who help themselves. That's about all I can say.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

"God helps those who help themselves" is not found in any bible Benjamin franklin said that. He also said "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

reply to post by zysin5


This is why I lash out against false teachers. False teachers are ignorant dangerous fools. To deny this girl her life with basic medical treatment is premeditated murder. They should have thanked God for the Doctors who discovered insulin and let their daughter have some and live.

reply to post by John Matrix


One mans "false teacher" is anothers prophet. Your faith is what makes your teacher right, nothing more. Just like their faith makes them right. At 11 years old you can use the phone to call 911 this was the girls religion and people should respect that choice.

I have no problem with parents praying for God to heal their children who are sick - as long as it's done beside a hospital bed.

God gave humans the brains, the curiosity and the desire to strive and learn, to heal.
It's up to us to trust God working through these men and women of science.
(Within reason - ie. I don't believe in popping kids full of pills and inoculations).

All in all parents mess up all the time - sometimes to us it seems totally incomprehensible - the mistakes parents make when trying to do their best - but it isn’t for me to judge them.

I can't even begin to imagine the hell of living when others feel I allowed my child to die - when I feel myself I allowed my child to die. (One way or another you can bet they feel the guilt - even if it’s that they didn’t have enough faith).

I hope they can find some kind of peace.

Originally posted by mystiq
...The child was not their property. ...

The founding fathers, AND THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION, disagrees with you. But you know better, right? 2,000 years of historical precedence, but you know better?

***YOU*** know better than Thomas Jefferson on when the government should be allowed to interfere with the parent/child relationship, right? You know better than the man that helped form this country, and it's guiding principles, right?

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by mystiq
...The child was not their property. ...

***YOU*** know better than Thomas Jefferson on when the government should be allowed to interfere with the parent/child relationship, right? You know better than the man that helped form this country, and it's guiding principles, right?

Bringing up Jefferson? He was not a fan of religion. They made damn sure that state and church where to be seperate..( But its not..)

You can not down play this like we want to get into everyones lives..
Please man..
Its comman freakin sense to step in when someone is doing this to their children. Its comman sense, and a step to being a good person to step in and take the child away from these people.

Lets put it this way.. As many members already have.
God created us, thus God created a cure! But they refused the cure.
They thought if they prayed.. God would just heal her.

It doesnt work like that!!!! And you don't have to say..
Oh you want governments telling you what to do??

No you have people with comman sense to step in and say, "Hey! Get this girl to a doctor where she can be healed!!"
And healed with the knowledge God gave to man!

God doesnt help those who don't help themselfs. As speaker said.

I find most devout religions to be down right rude and childish.

Would you do that to a friend?
Would you sit there and ask for things from your friends every day!!!
People ask God for so many things.. I would never treat God this way.
Its rude and down right sickening to me...

And to top it off.. They pick his day off to hammer him with prayers..
Little joke there.. God Im sure doesnt live day by day like we humans do.
God just is.. And God gave us the tools to help eachother..

Its people who stand in the way of that plan who are messing with the natural order of things..
Asking God to heal your kids... pffff.. Thats so rude... And ignorant.

We live on a tiny spec of dust.. A little blue mote of dust.. God created not only us humans, but so many other beings in this universe..
And they have the gall to expect God to heal their child on a floating mote of dust out of trillions and trillions and trillions of other beings?
When God put the cure here the whole time???

This is just messed up how people can defend these folks..
Simply freakin amazing to me at how far we really have to go yet as a people.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Zysin5 is right - bringing up Jefferson to somehow excuse this child's death is a bit rich.
There are many things the man said but I find this one quite revealing:

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

As for the benefits of objective science and the inherent dangers of blind obedience to superstition:

“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”

I suspect if Jefferson were alive today he would be thoroughly disgusted with the actions of this girl's parents.

Just why is this case not being prosecuted as homicide?

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by zysin5

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by mystiq
...The child was not their property. ...

***YOU*** know better than Thomas Jefferson on when the government should be allowed to interfere with the parent/child relationship, right? You know better than the man that helped form this country, and it's guiding principles, right?

Bringing up Jefferson? He was not a fan of religion. They made damn sure that state and church where to be seperate..( But its not..)

...

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Thomas Jefferson WAS NOT a fan of religion. But what did he say about the rights of parents versus the "right" of the government to dictate to parents? Hmmm?

Any particular reason you don't want to paste his quote about this very thing?