11yo girl Dies - God Vs. Science

This is an extreme case. But it is biblical... i.e., they are following the bible literally. And the parents where not open for questions.
To me this is murder and neglect!

How can anyone expect a prayer to heal someone who has a serious illness as this little girl did?

Please tell me that? How can a prayer heal someone this sick?
This is comming from a person who belives strongly in mind over matter, and healing with ones energy. But there are times when modern medications need to be consulted now and then!!
Prayers and thought can not cure everything! Science and religion at some point have to come together, and bind together if we are to move onto the next age of human kind.

So many people in this world, sit on their butts, and pray.. While so many bad things happen!! Get off your duff and do something about it!! No lets pray to God to save us~!!

Bullocks!!

[edit on 8-1-2009 by zysin5]

This is a news story because it's unusual. Doctor's offices, hospitals, etc. etc. are full of Christian people seeking appropriate help for their conditions.

It is unfortunate that whoever posted this clip on YouTube took this tragedy as an excuse to post tags over the video demonstrating their own brand of extremism.

Remarkably the daily plethora of murders in the name of "choice" rarely make the news. Hey, if the parents had had her tested before birth and discovered she woulda had diabetes they coulda saved her the pain and killed her there and then.

Originally posted by Supercertari
Remarkably the daily plethora of murders in the name of "choice" rarely make the news. Hey, if the parents had had her tested before birth and discovered she woulda had diabetes they coulda saved her the pain and killed her there and then.

At least she wouldn't have had to suffer. I'm trying to understand how letting someone suffer for a decade is better than not?

Hey, if the parents had had her tested before birth and discovered she woulda had diabetes they coulda saved her the pain and killed her there and then.

HUH?
It was treatable!
So why would you say something like that? Unless it was sarcasm?

There are plenty of people who go to church, and trust in science.
But theres still many still living under the notion that if you pray, and have faith, thats all you need.
Well they are DEAD wrong. And they lost their daughter becasue of their ignorance.

So I sense you are taking a little offence to this post?
I don't know why.. Its the 11 year old girl who had to suffer, at the hands of her parents via faith in God.

Which I don't state is your God. Its sertinly not the God I have faith in.
However the parents would not comment about what faith they had.

So don't get all huffy, no one is pointing any fingers here..
Just sharing a story.

reply to post by zysin5


ya good idea, lets make the government go shove pills down everyones throat !




seriously, i support the right of stupid religious nuts to let their kids die 100%

i dont want them breeding!

Many cultures do this, they don't believe in Western medicine and they believe in either cultural remedies or in prayer to heal their sick or wounded.

Sadly, God often does not win out. I believe in self-healing and placebo effects in the cases where it appears that prayer works. However, I think the odds are in the favor of Western medicine, and that often patients left to heal by God or on their own suffer.

Perhaps in the long term such beliefs would ring true. But I think chronic infection or seizures or heart problems kill too fast to allow self-healing or other remedies time to work.

This doesn't mean I support the healing of everybody through antibiotics for every disease. In fact, I think disease is great population control and that in order to follow evolution and natural selection, Western medicine does need to step back a bit.

reply to post by zysin5


your suggestion is that we have no freedom of religion anymore?

or freedom of opinion?

because i DEFINITELY wont let them shove pills down my kids throat!
if any pills go in my kids body, im gonna know exactly what it is first, and then decide if its worth the RISKS (because ALL medication has risks!)


they are my blood its my choice, not yours

go dope your own kids up and leave the other people to their own religious insanity

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
However, I think the odds are in the favor of Western medicine, and that often patients left to heal by God or on their own suffer.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that religious nuts have almost no chance for medical "miriacles".

But I disagree that western medicine is as good as everyone pretends it is. Its a fact that half the medications are poison and cause more pain than they "treat".

Because its also a fact "western medicine" doesnt CURE anything. Its not profitable. They only "Treat" things , meaning they never get cured only the Symptoms are temporarily relieved (and many side effects can occur)
Lifelong treatment plan = huge pharmacorp profits$$$

Honestly the only thing I trust putting in my kids generally is Tylenol, because I know for a fact its very safe and effective. And the odds are on my side with that very well known drug.

And yes, if my children had diabetes I would be seeking professional medical assistance because I am pretty smart and I want my kids to live.

But I also believe I shouldnt be forced to.

Because if you can force me to make my kid take diabetes medications; than you can also force my children to take horrible poisons like that so called HPV Vaccine (which has been recalled already due to how dangerous it really is).

Get my point? We need to have a middle ground here. Going to either end of the spectrum is bad.

People shouldnt be forced to take medications, but they should be informed about them in a fair truthful manner.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by muzzleflash]

Y'all have the free-will to make fools of yourselves! The intervention (or answers to their prayers) for this girl was in the form of medical treatment, which the parents failed to exercise on and for behalf of their daughter. I am surprised that many religious zealots would continue to hold fast to their blind faith for healing over an alternative that would have saved the family some grief! I say religion should not have been taken this far. Science has been installed for good reasons and not all medicine is bad. Sheesh!

[edit on 2009-1-08 by pikypiky]

Originally posted by Supercertari
Remarkably the daily plethora of murders in the name of "choice" rarely make the news. Hey, if the parents had had her tested before birth and discovered she woulda had diabetes they coulda saved her the pain and killed her there and then.

And sent her straight to heaven. How cruel abortions are. Saving a child like that 11 years of suffering and a free ticket to heaven. I guess I am missing something here.

Originally posted by zysin5

Well they are DEAD wrong. And they lost their daughter becasue of their ignorance.

Im not upset over it, I give applause to people for showing exactly how foolish their religion REALLY is.

Its a perfect example of why they should consider if their beliefs are stupid.

I cant even say they are guilty of involuntary manslaughter because they are too stupid to know any different.

I say let them off the hook, and let them deal with their own religious decisions.

Originally posted by pikypiky
Science has been installed for good reasons and not all medicine is bad. Sheesh!

[edit on 2009-1-08 by pikypiky]

I agree 100%

Not all medicine is bad. But also, Not All medicine is good either!

That is why we all need to take it on a case by case basis.

If your child is sick, and you want them better, investigate the chemicals your about to put in their body before you actually put it in them. Just a fair warning.

Alot of times the risks are minimal and medical treatment is a viable and logical solution, but other times its far too dangerous of a risk.

Case by case.

reply to post by muzzleflash

A child has died and your not upset about it. Kinda makes me wish i was a christian cos then i might have the satisfaction of 'knowing' that youll burn in hell for that point of view.
I would agree with you if it was one of the parents who had got ill and died, if they are willing to sacrifice their own life in order to keep to some ridiculous set of laws then good luck to them, i wont shed a tear for they die though, they brought it on themselves. But a child's life has been wasted due to someones ignorance and your not upset? whats wrong with you.

We have to remember that all things were created by God for the Glory of God in fulfilling the purpose of God. All the technology given to us has been given by God. He is the Author of LIFE. He is the Author of Love. Doctors and medicines are not all bad and can be used to glorify God. However, that's not always the case. This little girl died as a result of ignorence and negligence on the part of the parents(NOT GOD). That's why God gives us a brain, so we can think. I've witnessed miracles without medicine, and miracles with modern medicine and treatments. She should have been taken to a doctor. As for you who scoff at Christians, be not decieved, God will not be mocked. And the day will come when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord. I pray that some reading this post will bow and confess today while you can. Isaiah 55:6 says "Seek the Lord while He mey be found, call on Him while he is near". The day will come when it will be too late. The bible says Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven draws near. I beg you to fall on your face and beg God to forgive you and heal you of your fallen depravity. If your not sure God is real read "The Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Or "The Case For A Creator" by Lee Strobel. And listen to Ravi Zaccharias. These guys know their stuff. And most importantly read the Bible and ask God to reveal himself. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. I challenge you to do this. I did.

Zy, it is not just a religious thing,
My Mom moved to Pahrump Nevada some years ago and on the land where she lived was a little old lady whom the owner of the property let stay in her mobile home on the property. She had alzheimer's, and was also completely blind with cataracts. Her eyes were glazed over with film and yet her light shone so brightly, that people came from far and wide to sit with her.

With her long shiny silver hair and sweet smile she totally trusted the people that were her caretakers and they would place their healing hands upon her eyes and perform healing for her.

From time to time she could see a little better and you would have thought Jesus was healing the blind according to the healers.

Well Mom went over to meet the enlightened woman, and as soon as she took a look at her she said BS! She has cataracts on her eyes! The healers said "And we are healing her..." No! Said my Mom and she grabbed a phone, made an appointment and within 2 weeks the little lady could see perfectly.

The reason she sat silently, was because she had alzheimers, she needed meds to help her. Mom helped her to become whole.

You and I know that healing and naturopathy have their place, and we both respect it, however you and I also know when medical help is important too. I too think its a crock of sheet. I do not want to be the one to say, take the kids away though either, would you? Where would it end?

reply to post by muzzleflash

Good for you! Never allow a doctor to give you or any of your family any medication unless and until they have explained the reason for the drug, the side effects(You're right, ALL DRUGS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS), and how long you or your family member will have to take it. Ask if there are any alternative treatments. What are the other options? (For example, with adult onset diabetes, a disorder that is often controlled with oral drugs, excercise, proper diet, and weight loss will often bring the blood sugar back under control. Of course you may have to take the oral med for a short time. The same goes for elevated cholesterol, and high blood pressure. In other words, get away from the computer and do something!

When you go to the pharmacy to pick up your medications, the pharmacist should review the meds with you, if it is something you have never taken before. (My pharmacist does this with me, and he knows me, knows I'm an RN, and that I know my drugs almost as well as he does.) Then, when you get home, get on the internet, and check for yourself. Be careful doing this. Avoid the drug company sites, but also avoid those sites which dispense nothing but horror stories. My suggestion would be medscape.com and a couple of others that actually give out decent information.
In response to parents who depend on prayer to heal their child of diabetes, or heart disease, or the common cold, I have this to say.
You, as an adult have the right to accept or refuse medical care based on your religious beliefs. But if there is a PROVEN TREATMENT available for a particular disease, which your child has, and you choose not to use it, then you are guilty of neligible homicide at the very least. If I was the prosecutor I would go for 1st degree murder. Why? Because God gave man a brain capable of accumulating great knowledge. Mankind has learned to treat a great number of diseases, and to actually cure some of them. Guess what? The knowledge to develope these treatments came the God you claim told you to pray for your child and withhold treatment. I believe you could have given your child insulin, and if God chose to heal her, then He would have done it.
To those of you who want to know if I have ever seen evidence of divine intervention, I will say that I have seen a few times that someone I thought was going to die totally screwed with my head (as well as the rest of the nurses) and recovered. Was it a miracle? As far as we were concerned it was. Especially when I ran into that person at Walmart a year later, and although they were still weak, they looked remarkably healthy.

reply to post by antar


Well for those of you like Antar who know me.. Im very much into healing, and NO I DO NOT trust doctors. I have been a child of all religions, and world seeking soul. I found very much solace in Scientology teachings about phyc drugs, and the ill effects it can have on people.

Im very much into mind over matter, and I have not been sick in 3 years.
No colds, no flue. Im in perfect health. And its becasue I don't take tons of stuff and put into my body. So no science doesnt have all the answers.
Yet neither does religion.

There comes a time, where even a druid such as myself would seek western medications for sertin types of illness.

Due to this story.. The child could have been saved, by modern medications. All on the up and up in my studies.
So don't get me wrong here folks, and come at me like I want governments to shove pills down your kids throats..
I prefer you try mind over matter, and when that doesnt work.
GO see a doctor!!

Mind over matter doesn't always work. Healing doesnt always work.
And Im not saying that to try to discredit anyone.
I personal know in my life many shamans, druids, pagans, ect ect.
who live by this. Yet there is a time when modern medication should be thought about.. Or given its due.

I belive Science and religion can come together to create a new age of this world. I wish thats what 2012 was all about really.. Is the shift from 1 way of thinking into a more broad reasoning awakening.

I have studied all religions in great depth. I can heal myself, and others.
But if someone came to me, with this kind of sickness.
I would never treat them.. I would tell them to seek other help.

As our minds can only take us so far.. Sometimes we all need a little help.
Even God.

reply to post by muzzleflash


It's not about the parents, it's about the child.
Freedom of religion should not extend the choice to drastically decrease someone's chances of living.
Yay parents have the right to be dumbasses - but what about their children?
Once it crosses that line it should be dealt with.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Honestly the only thing I trust putting in my kids generally is Tylenol, because I know for a fact its very safe and effective. And the odds are on my side with that very well known drug.

Huh?

Tylenol (known generically as Acetominophen) is an important drug when your child has a headache, fever, toothache or muscle injury. It can help ease the pain and allow your child to get a good night's sleep.

Unfortunately, Tylenol is also a powerful toxin. Too much Tylenol can kill your child.

marshallbrain.com...

Also, you might want to check the label on your Tylenol. It specifically tells you not to give to children without a medical doctor's approval.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Get my point? We need to have a middle ground here. Going to either end of the spectrum is bad.

People shouldnt be forced to take medications, but they should be informed about them in a fair truthful manner.

I just wanted to add that, yes, I do get your point. And agree with you 95%.