The Circle of Faith:Why Faith is NOT a Good Thing

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I don't think you can edit faith. You have it or don't...plus I don't think it is just belief that will drive a person sometimes their whole lives. Belief is just not that powerful, but when you have faith you can move mountains.

I'm not talking religious faith here either...just faith in general, but what you want to do is edit what people can have faith in and that sounds a little one-sided on your part.

Not at all. You just didn't understand what I was arguing against.
Having a belief which is based on faith is what I'm arguing against.
If someone believes in pink unicorns with no evidence - and not only believes but has such a strong conviction that pink unicorns exist that he/she will refuse to even admit that there's a possibility that they could be wrong - that's the faith I'm arguing against. Though this same exact faith is usually seen in Christianity.

I'll say for the 24th time in this thread - I believe everyday faith (trust/hope) is a good thing and is needed.

reply to post by TruthParadox


So faith is o.k. As long as it is not in God or pink unicorns.

Good luck with that.

Thats why the point of this thread should have been that religions are using ignorance and not faith. Faith has a purpose.. If this would have been about how brainwashed christians and all religious people are it might have actualy gained some recognition.

Basing a whole argument on your veiw of the definition of a word is misisng the point entirely. Your missing the BEAR.

Originally posted by One4truth
So faith is o.k. As long as it is not in God or pink unicorns.

Good luck with that.

Sigh...
It's at least humorous to know that when all else fails you can ignore what I'm actually saying and then make up something ridiculous and act as if I said it.

Originally posted by TruthParadox


Not at all. You just didn't understand what I was arguing against.
Having a belief which is based on faith is what I'm arguing against.
If someone believes in pink unicorns with no evidence

Slippery slope my friend. Can there be unicorns? Since there are horses and other animals then yes there can. Is there life in the universe? Since there is life on our planet then yes, but can we ever see another space faring alien race? The odds are no, since if there was such a race the distance between us would prevent contact.

The universe started somehow, so how did all this come from nothing? Whether you have faith it was god or anything else they all have equal value since it is riddle that can never be proved.

Is there any existence after death? Un-improvable while you are alive.

I think man can have belief and faith in many un-improvable thoughts and concepts other than religion, and this is all part of a higher level of thinking to even be able to have this ability.

reply to post by TruthParadox


I meant it as sarcasm and as a joke. But since you brought it up... You did say that faith in God and pink unicorns is illogical. In your context, that is bad.

wow.. another members trying to score points form a subject that can NOT be proven except for action.. but hey.. you're scoring the points...right? That's what it's REALLY all about.. right??

I mean you REALLY need to make ANOTHER post how faith isn't real, God isn't real, but you can't ADD to the 10 millions other posts ALREADY posted on this subject.


wow.. well.. when you have NO faith in anything ........then what??


There are no Atheists in foxholes. If they still are, they soon won't be after they are dead.

The only reason the idea of a MAGICAL god has ANY logic... is that there have been generations of ignorant people playing the game. Ignorant ignorant people all making the biggest pile of crap in recorded history.

That is its only winning point....

The design of infinty has confused many many people....

reply to post by Komodo


So you think that believing what you were indoctrinated with or what our society is indoctrinated with, without question, is a good thing?

Perhaps if you had actually read what I was saying, you would know what I'm arguing against and what I'm not arguing against...

Originally posted by heyo
Faith is the key to everything. No one exists without it.
Science has faith that when it says something is true that it is true, that they have the tools to observe all possible outcomes, that obsrerved outcomes were the result of only carefully placed and documted "causes", that we can see all that is there (tech. included), that inference is akin to it being written in stone, etc. Faith exists in every aspect of our lives, and to draw some imaginary line of when and where it ceases to be practical is ridiculously egotistical. That's just my opinion.

i believe heyo is correct. Everything requires faith except for the acknowledgment of ones' existence.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Sorry, but you seem to misunderstand what atheism is - don't worry, you're not the first one.
The 'a' in atheism means "without", so 'atheism' means "without theism" or without a belief in God. It does not have to mean that you claim to know that there isn't a God.

TP, that 'disclaimer' (that I've heard a million times on here) might work with atheists who pretty much stick to themselves but you and I know each other and you have to admit you spend a lot of your time on here challenging Christianity, the existence of God, and faith in general.

That is not a symptom, if you will, of someone who simply a lacks of belief, that is disbelief. Which requires faith.

There are some atheists who simply lack a belief then there are those who make it a mission to extol the virtues of their atheism and to debunk or ridicule people of faith (not saying you're one of them). However, for atheists who behave in such a manner, that's placing faith in one's own belief in order to go on the campaign they do.

See?

In many cases, they do not 'not believe,' but they 'believe' there is nothing after this life. That's faith. So trying to hide behind the tired cliche 'Atheist only lack a belief' fails because it is in direct contrast with the many atheists who actively disbelieve and want to make sure others see it their way.

It's faith that there is nothing. Not a lack of faith in something.

Trying to pull the 'You don't understand what atheism is' line won't work on me because I've seen it used too many times as a defense tactic while the actions prove the contrary.

[edit on 1/16/2009 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
TP, that 'disclaimer' (that I've heard a million times on here) might work with atheists who pretty much stick to themselves but you and I know each other and you have to admit you spend a lot of your time on here challenging Christianity, the existence of God, and faith in general.

Yes I do, but I have never ever claimed to know that there isn't a God, just that there are flaws in the belief system. If I claimed to know as Christians did, then that would take true faith. I admit freely that I can not know. Christians don't even allow the possibility that they could be wrong - which truely takes faith - which is what I'm arguing against.

We could argue about faith all day, but it doesn't take faith to believe that there probably isn't anything after death as I have no reason to believe that there's anything after death. Does it require your faith to believe that there probably aren't pink unicorns in our galaxy? Just think about it - there really is a big difference between believing in something extraordinary and accepting something which is ordinary.

Originally posted by AshleyD
In many cases, they do not 'not believe,' but they 'believe' there is nothing after this life. That's faith. So trying to hide behind the tired cliche 'Atheist only lack a belief' fails because it is in direct contrast with the many atheists who actively disbelieve and want to make sure others see it their way.

There are contradictions in the Bible, for example, and it takes absolutely no faith to see them. Only to deny them.
There's a huge difference once you stop and think about it - I'm pointing out the fallacies of a belief system while others are claiming to know that their belief system is 100% accurate.
I've never claimed that my beliefs are 100% accurate, I simply believe whatever has the highest probability of being true - which requires no faith (in the religious sense of the word).

Originally posted by AshleyD
It's faith that there is nothing. Not a lack of faith in something.

Do you have faith that there are no pink unicorns in our galaxy? Or do you simply lack faith that there are pink unicorns in our galaxy because there's no evidence to verify it?

If there was a murder case with no evidence to suggest that a person committed the murder, would it take faith for the jury to come to the conclusion that the man is innocent? Of course not, it's simply the default when there is no evidence to back up the initial claim that he committed the murder.
Think about it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
TP, that 'disclaimer' (that I've heard a million times on here) might work with atheists who pretty much stick to themselves but you and I know each other and you have to admit you spend a lot of your time on here challenging Christianity, the existence of God, and faith in general.

That is not a symptom, if you will, of someone who simply a lacks of belief, that is disbelief. Which requires faith.

There are some atheists who simply lack a belief then there are those who make it a mission to extol the virtues of their atheism and to debunk or ridicule people of faith (not saying you're one of them). However, for atheists who behave in such a manner, that's placing faith in one's own belief in order to go on the campaign they do.

Please try to understand something...

Lots of individuals who are constantly trying to "debunk" Christianity are the product of Christianity itself. These are the ones where indoctrination failed.

Usually, the amount of being "pissed of" at Christianity and indoctrination that there IS God, is directly proportional to the amount of time new-born Atheist invested or was "forced" by environment into believing into God in his/hers "previous life". Awakening can indeed be troublesome sometimes, lol.

It's quite interesting thing that new-born Christian movement (which have been fairly effective in USA and is slowly catching up in Europe at the moment) is trying to "cure" this "side effect" or "anomaly" in this indoctrination with statements like:

God is Love,
I'm not religious, I have relationship with Jesus,
Be mad at religion, don't be mad at God, e.t.c.

From my own experience, whenever there is side effect, something is most likely wrong with the medication. Not everyone reacts the same way, I guess we are all unique after all ... like snowflakes

In fairness to it all, there are many Christians (and people of other faiths) who are 100% convinced that Atheists are trying to take over the world and that they are bigger "enemy" of the Christianity than being gay, liberal or, god forbid, lol, even communist.

Even though I never believed or have been indoctrinated, I visited "houses of God" many times (out of pure curiosity, again) and witnessed on many occasions that there IS clear intent to discriminate and undermine those with no faith "ability" and constant "desire" to convert them or "shut 'em up" because they are "danger to our children an our way of life". There is entire advertising machine, along with catch phrases, TV commercials, T-shirts, pamphlets in bathrooms and other public places and street signs which say things like "Be careful how you vote, this is a Christian nation"...

That is the reason that some Atheists (even those who are natural born ones) are openly against the whole "in your face" attitude, because, no matter how "innocent" it looks like to some, it can be annoying...

We are all prisoners of concepts - Faith has many faces until the veil of perception has been lifted, then you are more of a knowing being.



[edit on 16-1-2009 by HulaAnglers]

reply to post by TruthParadox


Your entire post to me is flawed due to the fact you made the assumption numerous times that 'there is no evidence' for theism. This is not true. Sure, we can't put God in a test tube and test Him scientifically but there is evidence. Solidity will differ but it's there.

What there really is, is no evidence of 'nothing' in the case of a deity. Atheists themselves are always going on about how they 'can't prove a negative.'

So, again, faith. Faith that there is nothing (since God is a concept unable to be proven or disproven) required faith BOTH ways.

I'm not trying to get in a war of theism vs. atheism- I didn't start this thread. Instead, I'm trying to get others to understand that atheism takes faith as well, regardless of the attempt to wiggle out of the label by hiding behind the definition.

reply to post by 5thElement


Exactly. So they had a bad experience with one religion so that one and all of them and even the 'God concept' as a whole must be bogus.

Does that sound logical? Come on, I thought the vocal atheists were always the ones claiming to have the trademark on 'logic, reason, and critical thinking.'



[edit on 1/16/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


We could argue about it all day and you wouldn't see it from my perspective, so I'll just say this...
When I was a Christian, I didn't even allow the possibility that there wasn't a God to exist in my head. Now I'm an atheist and I allow all possibilities which hold physical or logical evidence.

See the difference?
There is a huge difference and I know of it first hand because I've experienced both.

You: There is a God.
Me: There probably isn't a God.

I don't claim to know what I can't - what would be impossible for me to know, but you do. I only argue that to the best of my knowledge and the data I have, there probably isn't a God.

Huge HUGE difference, and if you can't see it then I don't know what else to say .

Originally posted by TruthParadox
You: There is a God.

That's a statement of knowledge, with the way you phrased it. An example of faith would be, 'I believe there is a God.'

Me: There probably isn't a God.

Now that's an example of faith.



Yes, I'm kidding.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by TruthParadox
You: There is a God.

That's a statement of knowledge, with the way you phrased it. An example of faith would be, 'I believe there is a God.'

Well if you don't claim to know that there is a God - just that you believe there is a God but could be wrong then we have nothing further to discuss .

But claiming to know something which could not be known is more than illogical - it's dishonest. I was dishonest with myself for the longest time which is why I do my best to show what blind faith truely is.

"Just believe me, man!" - when coming from a druggie is hardly seen as a logical investment of any worth.
"Just believe me." - when coming from a 2,000 year old text somehow seems more credible. A mental flaw which is exploited daily.

The druggies of today become the philosophers of tomorrow .
Yes, I'm joking - slightly...

"Just believe me, man!" - when coming from a druggie is hardly seen as a logical investment of any worth.
"Just believe me." - when coming from a 2,000 year old text somehow seems more credible. A mental flaw which is exploited daily.

Whilst you are correct to be wary on both counts, you will also be poorer for not considering the experience presented in both counts.

There are many different ways to gain knowledge of our world and the universe we live in, just because you have come from a constricting world view you have since learn't to be false, do not place yourself willingly in the hands of another equally constrictive view.

To me I think its clear that AD doesnt believe in the kind of God you claim you also dont believe in, but rather than look at his point of view you keep telling him something he already knows.