The Circle of Faith:Why Faith is NOT a Good Thing

Originally posted by Wehali
The original poster doesn't seem to have any idea of what science really is.

Oh I beg to differ .

Originally posted by Wehali
Science is based for the vast majority, on assumptions, theories and ideas,
facts have little to do with it. Some things are accepted as fact, and branded
as such, because they correspond with the overall accepted theories that go
around at that time, when something that is equally true and proven, does
not match with the theories, assumptions and ideas used by the lead people,
it is not accepted as fact. More often than not, untrue items are accepted as
fact, and true items are not accepted as fact.

But when did I ever say to blindly accept all that science puts out?
Evolution is an example of a theory which has evidence to back it.
Christianity is an example of a theory which has no evidence to back it.

Originally posted by Wehali
In light of this, I don't see any reason why faith would be inferior to science,
both faith and science are based on theories, assumptions and ideas, there
really is little difference between them.

I'm arguing against an absolute belief which has no evidence to back it.
Scientific theories will have something to back them - whether it be evidence or mathematical formulas - that's what seperates it from your ordinary theory.
Even so, I'm not pitting science against faith, but rather logic against faith.

Originally posted by Wehali
You really shouldn't be telling people what to think, my friend, it's not very
positive or constructive.

I'm not telling anyone what to think anymore than you're telling me what to think. Having absolute faith in such a thing which can have no evidence is simply illogical.
I believe that the Big Bang probably happened. But I have no real evidence that it happened. So for me to believe 100% without a doubt that it happened is a bit absurd, right?

You could have actualy reached somone if you wouldnt have used a word that has fallen into such ignorance. If your topic would have been

"Circle of Faith: Really just a circle of ignorance."

Faith was never ment to discribe somthing you will never udnerstand but you must belive in.

It was always used in the context of an understanding which is obtainable... yet a child who cannot understand it yet must have FAITH that he will.

This has been so raped and confused.

Faith is a part of who we are, so would it have been possible for the human race to advanced past the stick and rock stage without it?

Can we find the cure for cancer without faith that there is a cure for it out there? Do we leave this bed rock we call earth if there was no faith of anything beyond it? Faith is having belief in something without proof...yet.

Faith in a god means they believe, but will at some point have proof too, even if that point is after they die.

Can you have faith in your fellow man?

Think of a world where people only believe in what has empirical data backing it up 100%. No faith means a world where we are basically like any other animal that lives it’s life based only on its five sensory inputs.

Everyone has faith…though you might not want to admit it.


[edit on 12-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Xtrozero


Another person who does not understand what I am saying...
Sorry, this is just getting old.
There's a difference between belief and claiming to know 100% that something is true.
I believe in a lot of things that may not be true, the difference being is that I don't say that I know when I actually don't - doing so would only brainwash myself into believing that I had some concrete bases for said belief, when in actuality I have none.
Faith that we may one day find a cure for cancer is also not what I am arguing against. There's reason to believe that we will eventually find a cure because we have done so with other diseases - there is evidence that illnesses can be cured.

What I am arguing against is faith which completely fogs up the fact that there is no evidence to back such a 'knowing' of something which can not be known.

If I told you that there are pink unicorns outside our galaxy and to simply take my word for it and have faith, would you consider that a good thing?
Of course not.

What would you say to a person which took those words as fact rather than something which should be questioned? That's what I'm arguing against.

Dr. Lennox: Atheism is a faith.
Dr. Dawkins: It is not!
Dr. Lennox: Yes, it is.
Dr. Dawkins: No, it is not!
Dr. Lennox: Of course it is. Don't you believe it?

Before you reply claiming differences exist between atheism and religion, really think about it.

reply to post by AshleyD


I think that's covered by the "100%" clause.

Anyone with even a touch of agnosticism doesn't have faith that there is no God, because it's not a 100% belief, so they're okay.

Also, I think the argument goes that there is no evidence that can be physically encountered through nothing but our five senses that there is a God. So even if your belief in atheism is 100% you're not believing it despite evidence to the contrary.

Of course, it helps when you rule out any mystical/spiritual/emotional experiences as evidence beforehand.

______________________________

Question for you, Ashley.

Is your faith that God will take care of you 100% all the time? Has it never wavered in dark times?

In other words, is there such a thing as 100% faith (short of being a saint)?

reply to post by americandingbat


I didn't say agnostics or those with 'even a touch of agnosticism.' I specifically said atheists.

So even if your belief in atheism is 100% you're not believing it despite evidence to the contrary.

I have to disagree. First of all, there is evidence to the contrary. Second, unless they have been to the other side (which they haven't) or unless they omniscient, they do not know for sure. That's faith. They also make decisions in life based off of that atheism... something they don't or can't really know. That's also faith.

We all have faith. Unlike the original post, I don't necessarily think faith is a bad thing although it can be taken to extremes.

Is your faith that God will take care of you 100% all the time? Has it never wavered in dark times?

1). My faith has wavered at times but typically not during the 'dark hours.' That is usually when God draws me closer.

2). And I believe God is in control 100% of the time and that He will take care of me. However, that doesn't mean I won't get sick, won't die, won't ever be persecuted or ridiculed for following Him, etc. All of those things we know will happen. But I do know that He is sovereign and even those 'dark hours' have served an immense purpose or have taught me a deep lesson in my life.

reply to post by AshleyD



Like a deep lesson were you udnerstand that you need to be baptised... or maybe that you havent prayed enough? God doesnt anwser your prayers.

Maybe a deep lesson like when your friends are battling alchohalism or a rough emotional experiance.. that you must pray for them and god will heal them? Maybe if you only shared the Word and how jesus died for their sins they would then be happy?

People only get sick because they miss sunday church services. Any good christian knows that.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Wow. Not remotely what I said. In fact, just the opposite. See #2 in my post above. Now I remember why I have been staying out of these threads. lol

Sorry, TP. I tried.

reply to post by AshleyD


You didnt block that with your sheild of rightousness? wheres your sword of the spirit at?

DID YOU COME EQUIPED AT ALL?????

Originally posted by Wertdagf
wheres your sword of the spirit at?

reply to post by AshleyD


Protecting your delusions is only a natural nessesity... People just build their whole personality on this worship of an imaginary god. Once its gone i know you will cry for days... years even. i know

Originally posted by AshleyD
Dr. Lennox: Atheism is a faith.
Dr. Dawkins: It is not!
Dr. Lennox: Yes, it is.
Dr. Dawkins: No, it is not!
Dr. Lennox: Of course it is. Don't you believe it?

Before you reply claiming differences exist between atheism and religion, really think about it.

Bah, typical (New-born) Cristian VS Ex-Cristian (New-born "Atheist") verbal exchange. There is nothing funnier to watch or listen in this world...

He often dares to call himself an Atheist, but in reality he is ONLY denier of theism.

True Atheists never deny existance of God, they only conclude that If there is God or not (?) is really not a question but the answer to the more profound one: where does our logic ends?

Then, they move on, to more important things and questions which actually could be answered...

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by americandingbat

 

I didn't say agnostics or those with 'even a touch of agnosticism.' I specifically said atheists.

]

So even if your belief in atheism is 100% you're not believing it despite evidence to the contrary.

I have to disagree. First of all, there is evidence to the contrary. Second, unless they have been to the other side (which they haven't) or unless they omniscient, they do not know for sure. That's faith. They also make decisions in life based off of that atheism... something they don't or can't really know. That's also faith.

We all have faith. Unlike the original post, I don't necessarily think faith is a bad thing although it can be taken to extremes.

Again, I agree. As it happens, I believe that the feeling of peace/love/acceptance that Christians describe when they are aware of the presence of God is evidence that the divine is real. I also believe in miracles, but that might be a bit much for a thread like this

Is your faith that God will take care of you 100% all the time? Has it never wavered in dark times?

1). My faith has wavered at times but typically not during the 'dark hours.' That is usually when God draws me closer.

2). And I believe God is in control 100% of the time and that He will take care of me. However, that doesn't mean I won't get sick, won't die, won't ever be persecuted or ridiculed for following Him, etc. All of those things we know will happen. But I do know that He is sovereign and even those 'dark hours' have served an immense purpose or have taught me a deep lesson in my life.

And here I was just taking advantage of seeing you drop by this thread, since I'm aware of you as a Christian of strong faith and whose faith I very much respect.

I was trying to get a contrasting view from my own – which is that I grew up with no faith and have in the last decade or so worked hard to build faith. But I can't imagine it ever being "100%" without ever any doubts. If it could be, I think that would be beyond awesome. Maybe that's "enlightenment". But I don't think it's a state many of us get to spend our lives in.

This thread had me :bnghd: because I really couldn't figure out if the OP was differentiating between faith itself and the object of faith or how some people might wield faith. So I couldn't figure out if he was actually upset by faith or by what's done in the name of faith.

reply to post by americandingbat


I personaly think that the OP is mad at christians and wants to find fault with them by attacking some of their foundations.

But it is hard to shake a foundation that is based on experience. I gave to say it was a nice try though.

reply to post by Wertdagf

Like a deep lesson were you udnerstand that you need to be baptised... or maybe that you havent prayed enough? God doesnt anwser your prayers.

Maybe a deep lesson like when your friends are battling alchohalism or a rough emotional experiance.. that you must pray for them and god will heal them? Maybe if you only shared the Word and how jesus died for their sins they would then be happy?

People only get sick because they miss sunday church services. Any good christian knows that.

Who invented this God you are speaking of? Who created this template?

reply to post by AshleyD

Originally posted by AshleyD
Before you reply claiming differences exist between atheism and religion, really think about it.

I have really thought about it .
Sorry, but you seem to misunderstand what atheism is - don't worry, you're not the first one.
The 'a' in atheism means "without", so 'atheism' means "without theism" or without a belief in God. It does not have to mean that you claim to know that there isn't a God.
I don't know if there is a god or not, but from what I've seen (or more importantly what I haven't seen ), there's no more reason for me to believe that a god exists than pink unicorns.
Do you require faith to believe that there probably aren't any pink unicorns? Of course not. But I'm sure it would take a Hell of a lot of faith to believe that there ARE pink unicorns.

Originally posted by americandingbat
This thread had me :bnghd: because I really couldn't figure out if the OP was differentiating between faith itself and the object of faith or how some people might wield faith. So I couldn't figure out if he was actually upset by faith or by what's done in the name of faith.

There's no need to read inbetween the lines. I was merely saying that faith has its flaws. To base a belief system solely on faith doesn't make much sense to me...

If a kid believes there are monsters under his/her bed, thus leading him/her to an emotional response (fear) which seems to verify his/her initial thought - is that a good thing? Does the emotion actually verify that there are monsters under the bed?

If a Christian believes there is an all loving God, thus leading him/her to an emotional response (love/peace) which seems to verify his/her initial thought - is that a good thing? Does the emotion actually verify that there is a loving God in heaven?

You may argue that it can be a good thing, but isn't the truth a good thing? Isn't honesty a good thing? Faith is essentially brainwashing yourself to affirm a belief which had no bases to begin with. Just think about it. It's portrayed as a good thing, but is it really?

Originally posted by One4truth
I personaly think that the OP is mad at christians and wants to find fault with them by attacking some of their foundations.

But it is hard to shake a foundation that is based on experience. I gave to say it was a nice try though.

I'm not mad, and if I were just looking to find fault I'd probably be pointing out all the Old Testament verses where God is Hitler .
I was in a self affirming faith before, and I'm simply pointing out that it has it's flaws. You can't imagine how good it is to be honest with yourself and your beliefs...

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Faith that we may one day find a cure for cancer is also not what I am arguing against. There's reason to believe that we will eventually find a cure because we have done so with other diseases - there is evidence

I don't think you can edit faith. You have it or don't...plus I don't think it is just belief that will drive a person sometimes their whole lives. Belief is just not that powerful, but when you have faith you can move mountains.

I'm not talking religious faith here either...just faith in general, but what you want to do is edit what people can have faith in and that sounds a little one-sided on your part.



[edit on 13-1-2009 by Xtrozero]