The Circle of Faith:Why Faith is NOT a Good Thing

Faith is, quite simply, a belief which is void of evidence - sight, sound, smell, feel, or taste.
A belief which can not be verified - only believed by inferior means.
Is it not strange that such an attribute would be considered good in our modern society?
Of course the main culprit of this is Christianity, believing that it's a good thing not to have evidence and to simply accept what was written down thousands of years prior and translated multiple times.
Whether you consider it good or bad, it certainly is not logical.


The Circle of Faith

I understand the circle because I was a part of it for several years.
Having faith in nothing - to see it come alive in the mind and grow on itself - with no concrete bases whatsoever. The circle of faith is a self affirming belief in nothing in an attempt to make it something.
Each time you pass another lap on this circle, your faith grows, but why it does, nobody knows - except for psychologists, that is .


The Effects of Faith

We know today, through psychology, that the mind can be very adept at creating false realities. Having faith in something will eventually cause the mind to look for it and, upon not finding it, create it (in some sense).
There's an old computer saying: Garbage in, garbage out.
The mind is very similar - whatever you feed it will grow and become real in your mind.
Is it any wonder that if you continue the circle of faith for years you will eventually start having 'personal experiences'? If anything, this is a testament to the mind, but if not verified by scientific means, it truly means nothing.

So at the simplest level, we see that you must have faith in faith - in effect having faith in a faulty portion of the mind which has power to create whatever reality it sees fit. What sense does that make?


Deny Ignorance - Deny Faith

Faith can easily be linked with ignorance.
Faith denies evidence and facts in order to continue a belief.
The denial of facts is ignorance.
The lack of understanding of how evolution works, followed by calling it "ridiculous" or "evilution" - which is, in fact, to spit in the face of some of the greatest minds of the past century, IS ignorance.
To have enough guts to actually learn what evolution IS and then to debate it in an intelligent manner is not ignorance - but faith rarely allows such an honest attempt to understand what does not support the faith.

Any belief you have should be sound enough to stand on it's own merrits.
If a belief system requires you to have faith, then that should be a warning sign to you right there - that the belief system has it's flaws which must be ignored through faith.
Deny Ignorance.
Deny Faith.

There's a quote by Dan Barker who says it better than I could:
"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits."

I am sorry but i disagree. Faith is not simply religious nor is it the denial of facts.

Without faith in anything you will become complacent with everything. "That is the way it is and i suppose it can never be changed," will be what people without faith in anything will be saying.

Perhaps if your faith in something denies that a cat is a cat then that is ridiculous, but what if you have faith that you can help someone that others could not help?

I have faith that someday I will be well off. It may be a long shot, and in fact it is nearly impossible that i will ever escape borderline poverty, but if i gave up what is the point of doing anything else?

Faith in general is beautiful as long as you don't force it on you peers.

Keep in mind that science is more theoretical than factual and we learn something new that contradicts previous facts every day. That is the nature of understanding. It is being open minded enough to understand that nothing is solid. In 30 yrs we may create a time machine to find out that in all actuality the universe was created by an enormous being taking a dump. We may also find out that smoking is actually healthy.

I will never be complacent and i will never believe that a=a until i have seen it personally. How do we know that a=b is not the true equation? We don't, we just go off what we have seen thus far.

I will say that if this is aimed at religious fanatics then i suppose i agree with that much.


[edit on 4-1-2009 by dantrav]

[edit on 4-1-2009 by dantrav]

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Each time you pass another lap on this circle, your faith grows, but why it does, nobody knows - except for psychologists, that is

.

Without promise of eternal life faith would be nothing.

For many it's hard to cope with not knowing what happens after we die...

reply to post by 5thElement


Exactly.

That is why most people are into a certain religion, so that they can say they know lifes toughest question. What happens after we die?

If you think you know that, than you won't have to worry about anything you're whole life. It's the reason religion is so attractive to most.

So faith is bad why? Because I have faith in God, and follow what he has laid out for me to live a better life free from sin is a bad thing? Truth is not relative, facts are. Faith in the truth will be what changes facts. But it requires action. So why is faith bad if it helps a person?

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Faith is, quite simply, a belief which is void of evidence - sight, sound, smell, feel, or taste.
A belief which can not be verified - only believed by inferior means.

Who defines them as inferior?

Originally posted by theendisnear69
reply to post by 5thElement

 

Exactly.

That is why most people are into a certain religion, so that they can say they know lifes toughest question. What happens after we die?

If you think you know that, than you won't have to worry about anything you're whole life. It's the reason religion is so attractive to most.

I'm sorry but whilst that may be true there is a difference between religion and faith. Just because you have faith doesnt make you correct but it's not something which should be discounted its an incredibly powerful tool.

reply to post by One4truth

Faith is rediculous. You must let others have their beliefs right? By doing so your agreeing to terrorists blowing themselves up to see god. Faith is VERY bad and must be destroyed before it destroys this planet. It's destroying this planet to no end.

Delusional people who have faith in something that doesn't exist shouldn't be allowed near a nuclear weapon but this is the sitation we are in! WAKE UP.

Christianity destroyed the library of alexandria and destroyed human knowledge we had to re-learn. Spaniards killed the Maya because of their faith. Nazi germany murdered millions of jews because of faith. I can keep going on and on history is full of examples how faith is bad.

Hello Truth,

I disagree greatly with your post in a kind way.

Relgious beliefs and faith are not the same. One can have faith without religion but religion can not be without faith. I think you should of used the word 'religions' instead of faith.

Frankly, the human mind seems to be wired for such a thing as faith. We seem to be made 'dreamers'.

Alot of the advice you give is great advice...one should not let factual evidence be denied even if it goes against what ones 'relgious' beliefs revolve around....but even if ones religious belief goes against what a science or fact says....faith never has to stop.

One can have faith that we are all connected to a higher power without anything ever proving that 'faith' wrong. No one can ever prove there is not a higher power...but one may prove that a history of a religion is based on false hoods.

Faith can evolve and grow right along with facts of reality. Faith might not be good for some for they NEED the KNOWN facts...as well as religions might not be for some, for they are a limited viewpoint for a person of faith.

To me, it is more of the religions that restrict one from denying ignorance....not faith.

Just thoughts, as always
LV

It takes an extreme amount of faith to believe in the THEORY of evolution. Creation is truth and evolution is lacking that. Evolution doesn't even have facts to beleave in, all it is is a set of guesses to hopefully count out the possibility of there being a god to answer to.

Faith is the key to everything. No one exists without it.
Science has faith that when it says something is true that it is true, that they have the tools to observe all possible outcomes, that obsrerved outcomes were the result of only carefully placed and documted "causes", that we can see all that is there (tech. included), that inference is akin to it being written in stone, etc. Faith exists in every aspect of our lives, and to draw some imaginary line of when and where it ceases to be practical is ridiculously egotistical. That's just my opinion.

meh... (first time user of meh, I promise to never use meh again, unless.... )

As my famous oft used quote goes regarding Faith:

"I have faith that there is a million dollars buried in my back yard, I don't know for sure, but it's there"

If I find it, I will take faith much more seriously, I have faith in that.


edit to add '...'

[edit on 5-1-2009 by Toadmund]

reply to post by One4truth


Your post points out the differences of faith and religion well. If there is evidence to show that evolution has a place in this world, much more so then creation out of nothing, it shouldnt be hard to see this evidence and be amused at mankinds findings of the past.

You stated, 'creation is truth'....

you have no facts to base that on....creation is not truth...there is not truth that God made all of this out of nothing. Even religious materials say God made things out of the dirt, waters, air....God uses elements or things that are already in existence.....I think there are great reasons to think that God works through orders and processes...it would make sense that things have a order and process to evolve. So what if we all evolved, if you believe in a higher power, then that higher power knew what Thee was doing when the process began eons ago.

Even if evolution is truth...it doesnt disprove God in any way. There is no reason people of faith should have to feel like 'creation' is a must.

Just thoughts,
LV

Hi Leo,
I didn't mean to imply that God created us from nothing, sorry. Genesis states that He created man from the dust of the earth(though it does not say from a goo comming out of the ocean or from a fish). I believe that if God created us in His image as is written, then that's what He did. To say we evolved into what man is now is to say that God didn't get it right the first time in making us in His image. I believe that God is a personable God and He would not lie. All of creation is hinged upon His word, and if He lied, yhat would be very detrimental to His creation.
Please don't think that I am being closed minded( not saying you are), but in researching both sides of the coin, I came to the conclusion that evolution has too many holes and not enough truth to fill them with. I thank you for the unintentional encouragement though to keep researching my quest for truth!

Faith is a good thing.

It makes you healthier and lengthens your life.

Apparently.

Recent reviews of the research literature provide a convincing case that "on average, high levels of religious involvement are moderately associated with better health status"...

Science Daily: 'Faith And Health: Divine Intervention Or Good Behavior?'

Faith and spirituality were cited most often by people over the age of 100 as the source of their longevity, according to a survey sponsored by a unit of UnitedHealth Group.

Red Orbit: 'Centenarians say faith source of longevity'

''We know from quite a bit of research that religion can be a potent resource,'' said Dr. Kenneth I. Pargament, a professor of psychology at Bowling Green University in Ohio and the lead author of the study, which appears in Archives of Internal Medicine.

''But it's also clear that religion has a darker side,'' Dr. Pargament said. ''It can be a source of solutions but it can also be a source of problems. This study helps lend some balance to the whole field.''

New York Times: 'Study Suggests Shaken Faith Can Worsen Poor Health'

Quite interesting to see all these dire pronouncements upon the meaning of Faith by those who obviously are ignorant of the subject.

Faith is not the same as "belief"... Belief is cheap, people believe all sorts of inane and ignorant nonsense — see the collected political speeches of John Kerry or Barack Obama, for example, in which a majority of sentences are prefaced with the words "I believe..." Afterwards, these career politicians invariably make a 180 and believe things diametrically opposed to their prior beliefs.

Is anyone outraged by the seeming contradiction, by the blatant hypocrisy of our statesmen? No, of course not, because our society simply accepts the fact that belief is cheap, that belief can turn on a dime. As a culture, we understand that any statement of belief acknowledges doubt and fallibility on the part of the believer.

Faith, on the other hand, does not entertain doubt nor the possibility of failure. The Faithful are not mere "believers"; in fact, of the billions of believers in the world during the last century, you could probably count the number of truly Faithful individuals on the fingers of your two hands.

It's very unlikely that most of you have ever met a person of true Faith. If you had met such a person, you would remember it. They're not always religious fanatics. Sometimes they are conquerors. Some may be engineers or artists or even scientists. More often than not, we recognize them as eminently self-assured and dynamic individuals who plow through our existence, demolishing accepted dogma and rewriting the rules as they go.

All through recorded human history, we have pondered Faith and have tried to define it. But, more than simply describing it, we have endeavored to bottle it and sell it, giving rise to countless religions and schools and philosophies over the ages, across every human culture that has ever existed.

See, religion is not the same thing as Faith, either. Religion is an attempt to describe the path to Faith. Faith is a goal. But, as an objective, what is Faith, really?

Faith is a phenomenon of human consciousness, a phenomenon that permits us to function and survive and prevail without questioning the mundane mechanics of our existence, and without entertaining the possibility of defeat. It's the phenomenon that, most likely, is responsible for the advent of the human species as the most adaptable and successful large animals in the history of the planet.

Additionally, and contrary to what many theists will tell you, Faith is not something acquired in degrees, any more than pregnancy is acquired in degrees. It doesn't require repeated and regular insemination to impregnate a person, and acquiring Faith doesn't require your being a good, church-going Catholic or Protestant or Jew or Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist, either.

Either you are Faithful or you are not, and quite often Faith has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. Even atheists can have Faith.

Again, Faith is a phenomenon of human consciousness, a phenomenon that frequently allows our species to survive and prevail in defiance of "the odds" that are stacked against us. In this respect, Faith can only be perceived as a "good thing"...

As for those who ignorantly insist on pitting Faith against Science, I would hasten to remind them that virtually all of our Science is seriously flawed, inasmuch as we never successfully think through the long-term impact of our scientific advances, such as those that have delivered us to the brink of overpopulation, thermonuclear annihilation and "man-made global warming"... All the products of half-baked Science.

— Doc Velocity

I'm sorry but whilst that may be true there is a difference between religion and faith. Just because you have faith doesnt make you correct but it's not something which should be discounted its an incredibly powerful tool.

Yes,good post - just look at Voodoo.
To the many people who still have 'faith' in the beleif system it appears quite real.

I think this can be said for all organised religions as the human mind can be a very powerful thing.

Of course a person can (be made to) beleive something with all their heart ,it doesn't necessarily make it true.

As for people fervently preaching religion and purposefully misrepresenting speculation,conjecture,guesswork,heresay and opinion as 'factual' in context-if a thing was a fact they wouldn't need to have faith in it would they?

Originally posted by dantrav
Without faith in anything you will become complacent with everything. "That is the way it is and i suppose it can never be changed," will be what people without faith in anything will be saying.

Perhaps if your faith in something denies that a cat is a cat then that is ridiculous, but what if you have faith that you can help someone that others could not help?

I have faith that someday I will be well off. It may be a long shot, and in fact it is nearly impossible that i will ever escape borderline poverty, but if i gave up what is the point of doing anything else?

I absoulutely agree. I was talking about it in more of a religious sense - as having an absolute belief completely based on faith.
Having faith that your life will be good in the future is not illogical, because it has happened to others - it's not something extraordinary which denies all evidence - I should have made that clearer I suppose.
I'm simply explaining faith's role in reaffirming itself and how illogical that can be.

Originally posted by dantrav
I will say that if this is aimed at religious fanatics then i suppose i agree with that much.

It mainly is, actually .

Originally posted by One4truth
So faith is bad why? Because I have faith in God, and follow what he has laid out for me to live a better life free from sin is a bad thing? Truth is not relative, facts are. Faith in the truth will be what changes facts. But it requires action. So why is faith bad if it helps a person?

If it makes you a good person - by all means pursue it. But if you want to be honest with yourself instead of using faith to cover up the flaws of your religion - by all means pursue that. I don't know about you, but I can be a good person without beliving in a grey bearded man in the sky .

Originally posted by americandingbat
Who defines them as inferior?

Certainly I explained this in my first post.
By 'inferior means' I'm referring to the mind's ability to create a false reality to fit the circumstances and to reaffirm the belief. This is a faulty system.

Originally posted by heyo
Faith is the key to everything. No one exists without it.
Science has faith that when it says something is true that it is true, that they have the tools to observe all possible outcomes, that obsrerved outcomes were the result of only carefully placed and documted "causes", that we can see all that is there (tech. included), that inference is akin to it being written in stone, etc. Faith exists in every aspect of our lives, and to draw some imaginary line of when and where it ceases to be practical is ridiculously egotistical. That's just my opinion.

We have faith to an extent in many things - but many things we have faith in for a reason. I have faith that when I start my car it's going to run, because I've done it a million times - it's not the same definition of faith I'm referring to, because I DO have physical evidence which suggests that it will start the next time.
Scientists have some kind of evidence to support their claims unless it is a hypothesis - they usually will still have mathematical evidence of some kind.

You're using a different definition of faith than I am - as most people here are.
The definition of faith I'm using is simply a belief which is not based on evidence - logical or physical.