Gilad Atzmon - Living on Borrowed Time in a Stolen Land

Originally posted by HunkaHunka


Anyone out there find issue with the points made in this article?

I'm interested in hearing a rebuttal.

Not a rebuttal, but a thought exercise


I see a similarity with the displacement of Native Americans in NorthAmerica and the estrangement of the Palestinians by the Israeli gov't

the Israeli govt has a lot of older 'hardliners' (aka zionists)
Who have not yet achieved the 'solution' which involves
the methodical partitioning, or herding the Palestinians into containment...
into the treaty arrangements akin to 'Reservations' or the mini-'nations' which the USA gov't finally compromised on as the end result of the American 'Manifest Destiny' to take over the american landmass


Israel is still struggling to find & come to terms with their own 'solution'...
a 'solution' somewhere between the NativeAmericanReservation product and the untenable act of blantent genocide.

Originally posted by Dracula23
reply to post by masonwatcher

 

Every time an Anti Zionist or racist parade arrives in town, you find them carrying Gilad Atzmon on their shoulders. Why not, they have got an Israeli Man insulting Jews and Israel. Sounds Familiar?
All I have t say to you Masonwatcher is that you are both ignorant and misinformed. Try attending a college where factual history is taught. Relying on the fictional, racist crap the Nation of Islam or any other Racist group churn out merely keeps you a slave to your pathetic victim mentality. Sadly, you will remain an angry, ignorant member of the underclass that is perpetuated by the people who teach you this drivel. You are a life member of the collective human race. Try to be an asset to it. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Your misinformed response pains me. History? You are kidding, right? THIS IS the factual history of the formation of Israel! What propagandist crap are you espousing? The venomous ad hominems hurled at Masonwatcher are unneccessary, unfounded and completely without merit! Why is that whenever someone brings to light the truth of the matter they are instantly labeled hatemongers, anti-semites or racist!?!? Typically such responses belie the fact that you are a.) part of the class being condemned and have no factual response to the claims, b.) simply have no true knowledge of the subject matter and therefore have to attack the person making the argument as opposed to the argument - in either respect it is disappointing.

I suggest that YOU attend a college where TRUE history is taught. If you have attended a public college in the United States you have been force-fed propaganda and crap and should ask for your money back. Rarely are those educations worth even a pittance of what you paid.

Originally posted by Dracula23
I find it funny you can’t answer one point Wafa Sultan made about Islam and modernization. Not one word about woman’s rights in these countries. one word about the fact that in western countries Christianity and religion are not part of the educational system Unlike Muslim countries. One word about why most Muslim countries are under dictatorship and fascism. One word why all the countries in the Middle East with all their wealth and resources are third world countries and most people live under poverty.

I’m not Zionist im an educated atheist and I call it as I see it. Keep your one-line propaganda comments and try attending college.

I've also been reading your posts - and as you stated to Mason - all you do is call him ignorant and misinformed. I can actually read the outright hatred you put into your posts. If you had some sort of argument to back up your constant hate filled warmongering, maybe the people of ATS would acknowledge what you say, however, the only person coming off as an "obvious" child is you my friend. Perhaps you are angry, because deep inside you know that your stance on this conflict is ethically flawed and you have no other way to bolster your position, other than to use insults and hatred. Please, stop telling us your educated and we need to go to college, that doesn't mean you are right. It most likely makes your worldview even more skewed. Finally, the post I replied to is the only response I've seen where you've laid out some form of argument, yet you totally missed the point. The current brutality we see in Israel is not about "Islam and modernization". Yes there are things we don't like about Islam, but that doesn't mean blow them off of the earth. Picking apart Islam does not constitute killing and eradicating the Palestinians. If that was the case, why doesn't Israel attack the real threats, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Oh wait...that would be 'bad' wouldn't it? Dracula, I doubt you are even in college, and I think, from your stupid posts, you are the only child here. Please put aside your spite and try and listen to the other side for a change

[edit on 4-1-2009 by alien]

I think it is safe to say most of us are actually in good mind and heart when it comes to this sort of thing.

*snip*.

Mason, thank you for the post, it was a solid read.


*editted out the personal attacks. cheers.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by alien]

Americans are the last people to be commenting on this issue - roughly 50% of Israel is OPPOSED to this war, there are HUGE anti-zionist movements in Israel.

It is a categorical FACT that the primary motivator behind the aggressive israeli posiiton is the israeli Lippby led by AIPAC - this is not new nor unknown.

The slander being directed by what can only be described as agenda driven propagansists against this thread are disingenuous clap trap and best.

The entire world is now united in calling upon Israel to stops its aggression, your comments would suggest that the entire world are anti-semites, which is the line you take with every position which draws into question the genocide being perpetrated in the ancient lands.

In reality your time as genocidal apologists has come to an end, for those of you not actively employed by the Lobby but still carrying this pathetic line then I suggest it is time to realise you have been profoundly misled.

Keep up the struggle for truth and peace -

reply to post by Exuberant1
So.....are you suggesting that any land a country loses as a result of a treaty or cease-fire in a war which they were aggressors must be returned?

The American Indian needs to be told this, don't you think? [/s ]

i say let israel have at it, when there done with the palestinians they can take care of those pesky saudis and those damn ignorant egyptians< joke >

On a serious note i fully support israel's attack on palestine, hamas is legaly palestine, hamas said it wants to destroy israel by any means necessary!
Israel must defend itself, if that means killing a few people then as sad and unfortunate as it is, thats the way it must be.

This is a now classic concise analysis of the Israeli/Palesininan conflict opsted by someone calling themselves Nekama.
Required reading for all.

MF

----

1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koran-imals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

I am so sick of hearing from you Israel haters. If they stopped shooting rockets the fighting would stop immediately. The only option is to keep killing until the rocket attacks stop. If any group wants to fight Israel then announce you intentions and meet them somewhere on a field of battle. If your cause was so honorable and just then you would do that and a majority of the world would line up behind you. Being the cowards that they are they hide behind women and children. If the Palestinians want it to stop they need to tell the soldiers where these people are so they can be killed. The sad part is that the people firing rockets are more than likely not Palestinians anyway. I have never heard of a person from anywhere other than Palestine being a suicide bomber in that particular conflict. Palestinians are just taken advantage of because of there situation. IF Israel wasn't there they would be picking on the Palestinians. The rocket attacks are obviously an attempt to provoke some kind of larger conflict just like the India attacks were. I hope they don't use this to go after Iran. If you people feel so strong about the injustice going on stop complaining like a bunch of cowards and go to Palestine and fight for the cause you believe in. Get out of your moms house for once and go do something.

If you had to move over there would you rather live in Israel or under Hamas in Gaza?
Why should you support Hamas if you would not live under them?
A very simple question that can reveal a lot if you answer it honestly.

reply to post by mmiichael


You have hit the nail on the head. I firmly believe Israel wants peace but this is not possible with Hamas. The religion of Islam is notoriously violent regardless of some opinions. If there are no jews or capitlaists to hate they will fight each other. There is no room for peace in their destructive religion.

Originally posted by slicobacon
reply to post by mmiichael

 

You have hit the nail on the head. I firmly believe Israel wants peace but this is not possible with Hamas. The religion of Islam is notoriously violent regardless of some opinions. If there are no jews or capitlaists to hate they will fight each other. There is no room for peace in their destructive religion.

it is interesting how people rant against islam but in the same time they ignore history facts: judaism can be also extremely violent and THE FIRST BOMBING EVER IN MIDDLE EAST was done by extremist jews... google: irgun bombing king david hotel 1946 ... and see what you get

Originally posted by Dracula23
reply to post by masonwatcher

 

Every time an Anti Zionist or racist parade arrives in town, you find them carrying Gilad Atzmon on their shoulders. Why not, they have got an Israeli Man insulting Jews and Israel. Sounds Familiar?
All I have t say to you Masonwatcher is that you are both ignorant and misinformed. Try attending a college where factual history is taught. Relying on the fictional, racist crap the Nation of Islam or any other Racist group churn out merely keeps you a slave to your pathetic victim mentality. Sadly, you will remain an angry, ignorant member of the underclass that is perpetuated by the people who teach you this drivel. You are a life member of the collective human race. Try to be an asset to it. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

"Where factual history is taught"???

*snip*

here in the U.S. in just about every school I know (at least in the midwest) teaches and SHOWS actual footage, of the jews taking over palestinian land (thanks to the U.N.) So yes, it is very much FACT that jewish survivors of WW2 were pretty much given land that did not belong to them.

This isn't an opinion, it's not subjectivism, it's not up to interpretation. It is cold, hard fact, and you know the beauty about facts is? You can't argue against them. Facts are simply facts. You can't argue against a footage showing the hordes of jewish WW2 survivors landing in palestinian land "given" (if you want to call it that) to them by the U.N. (nevermind what the palestinian people think)What ever are the motivations behind those facts is a different story, and quite frankly, are irrelevant to me.

Perhaps you should go back to school and attend history class again, and ask them to repeat their curriculum on WW2. Because where I used to go to school, it was pretty much common knowledge amongst those that took the class.

*editted out the personal attacks. cheers.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by alien]

reply to post by donhuangenaro


Don't you know that you are not suppose to bring real history up when discussing Israel.

Wikipedia recently deleted the entry for Benjamin M. Emanuel. After you read this you start to see how "real history" is suppressed.

benjamin-m-emanuel-wikipedia

Originally posted by verycourious
reply to post by donhuangenaro

 

Don't you know that you are not suppose to bring real history up when discussing Israel.

Wikipedia recently deleted the entry for Benjamin M. Emanuel. After you read this you start to see how "real history" is suppressed.

benjamin-m-emanuel-wikipedia

Actually, very good point. I do remember a long time ago, having watched a Discovery channel special that mentioned exactly those events. ( I don't remember them without much clarity, but I do remember they did mention the jewish terrorist who bombed a mosque full with muslim worshippers)

Bu then again, it seems that now a days, people around the world, and man, MANY here on ATS, are not interested in finding out the truth, though they might say otherwise. They're only interested in being "right" even if they're wrong. You know, big ego boost for them I guess.

Not to derail too much here. But I have noticed this tendency here and it's starting to bug me a lot! When I was browsing the UFO and paranormal forums. I never encountered the high level of animosity and "party" leaning as I am finding in political or world events forums. It was more of a "Is this video real? yes? no? discuss" then once proven one way or the other, we learned from it, and moved on. There wasn't nearly the level of battling and bickering to try and prove one's self "right" especially once presented with good evidence.

Lately in the political and world events forums, I'm starting to notice the opposite. People who come here and present good solid historical evidence are usually ignored, sometimes by both parties bickering, because it takes away from their whole battle of egos you know, the "I'm right, youre wrong" "No, you're wrong, I'm right!" and quite frankly, these fights are starting to aggravate me. Maybe I should go back to the UFO and paranormal forums again until the bickerers stop their bickering or leave ATS.

Flag and star for you, my friend.

I've been on this forum for some time now and have been vividly trying to show people how the mainstream media has been brainwashing people. For me it was easier to figure out the truth than for most Americans on this forum since Dutch media is among the most objective in the world. Documentaries and reportages about the Israeli lobby in America, its influence on the American mainstream media and its foreign policy have well been portrayed while such documentaries are unthinkable to appear in American media. Instead, they repeat over and over again that Palestinians are terrorists, which makes it understandable that many people actually believe this stereotypic idea.

Unfortunately, I live in a country that currently has a pro-American puppet regime that fails to condemn the collective punishment by Israel.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by Mdv2]

reply to post by makinho21


*snip* give me one answer with facts and maybe i will answer you like an adult....

*editted out the personal attacks. cheers.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by alien]

Originally posted by Question

.. it seems that now a days, people around the world, and man, MANY here on ATS, are not interested in finding out the truth, though they might say otherwise. They're only interested in being "right" even if they're wrong. You know, big ego boost for them I guess.

Not to derail too much here. But I have noticed this tendency here and it's starting to bug me a lot! When I was browsing the UFO and paranormal forums. I never encountered the high level of animosity and "party" leaning as I am finding in political or world events forums. It was more of a "Is this video real? yes? no? discuss" then once proven one way or the other, we learned from it, and moved on. There wasn't nearly the level of battling and bickering to try and prove one's self "right" especially once presented with good evidence.

Lately in the political and world events forums, I'm starting to notice the opposite. People who come here and present good solid historical evidence are usually ignored, sometimes by both parties bickering, because it takes away from their whole battle of egos you know, the "I'm right, youre wrong" "No, you're wrong, I'm right!" and quite frankly, these fights are starting to aggravate me. Maybe I should go back to the UFO and paranormal forums again until the bickerers stop their bickering or leave ATS.



Thanks for this. I'm new to this kind of site and was wondering what was going on. The excuse may be to learn information on a topic and exchange views, but what I see mostly is people shouting their views and others trying to shout them down.

This weeks highlighted example, discussions of the pros and cons of Israel's move on Gaza polarize into many posting taking the opportunity, under the accetable cloak of anti-Zionism, to berate Israel, it's history, Judaism, and all Jews by inference.

Angry Americans and those elsewhere more sympathetic to the Israel's situation lash out at the closemindendness and inherent racism, and it all just escalates.

I rarely see anyone posting comments like "I didn't know that" or "I never thought of that." Game level #2 is attacking sources. If you don't agree with facts, call it MSM brainwashing - or agenda driven misinformation.

It all feels like a gathering of largely insecure and hostile people looking for arguments and trying to demonstrate how much they know, and how wrong everybody else is.

Show me I'm wrong in this assessment.


Mike F

reply to post by Dracula23


Thank you for pointing who the ignorant people are.

Please could you inform us of the

factual history

in a post or a new thread please.

I am Jewish myself and I do not support the war on terror that Israel is waging on innocent Palestinian civilians. It's horrible and despicable to see so many innocent people die because of Israeli violent war tactics. Some Jewish people believe in their heart that for whatever reason Jewish life worth more then that of a Palestinian. Somebody tell me this this is not Nazism. It's ironic that Jewish people act towards Palestinians in exact manner Nazis did during WW2. I do not support HAMAS in any shape or form and believe firmly that Islamic religion of today is one of the most ruthless and extreme BUT once again I believe that many Palestinian people see no other choice but to fight against Israel. When you live in poverty and under constant attacks from Israel, when many of your family members are being killed and wounded on daily bases, when you have no food and no running water you become demoralized. What would YOU do if you were in their place? Many of them join resistance because they see no hope.


[edit on 4-1-2009 by stanislav]