6 Million people died in the Holocaust, and somebody did something.

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
not factually true

name another

right now your argument is looking weeeeak if your going to use the Pols

Roma and Sinti (aka Gypsies) of course, as long as you want to remain in the realm of ethnicity.

try homosexuals and political dissidents, there were many ways to get hauled off to camp hell, many more to get killed on the front (dangerous assignment, all that is needed in times of war is an 'endorsement' from home...) or by court martial. you all seem to forget that it doesn't matter where you go through hell, just how. i imagine the starvation of Leningrad was up there as well, but, legally speaking, not a camp.

these narrow interpretations reek of competition mindset, it's almost as if people were looking for the biggest pile of dead and the most vicious camp... i severely doubt that this view serves any (positive) purpose.

it doesn't even take confinement to commit atrocities, as the following example will clearly show.

www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/09/11/p19437

please copy and paste, i want the link to remain active for some time, so i won't link it. maybe you should start to understand that in between all the finger-pointing and chest-thumping, you should take a good look around - because if you believe that similar atrocities aren't commited as we speak, you're deluding yourselves.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

just a glimpse, if that.

THank you once again to everyone who has responded. I have never had as many S&F before on one topic!

Let me please remind everyone to remain tactful, and that this thread isn't meant to minimize that the European Jews suffered at all, but to point out that other people shared that pain and at the time there were those trying to help them.

reply to post by asmeone2


Do not misunderstand what I'm saying. I am speaking in a general basis. I'm not talking about this particular incident. I'm talking about the "Only-the-strong-survive" way of thinking that is more so, a curse than a blessing, especially when it comes to people of countries, where they themselves may not be able to help themselves, and where their governments may not have the aid and capabilities of helping their people against superior countries.

I'm not saying a country should head in guns blazing in the rescue of another country, I'm saying, if what you said is to take place, the world will be a much more terrible place to live in, especially for the poorer countries, which there are more of than wealthy countries; and that's all I'm saying.

My last point about the powerful who did help Hitler carry out his plans is dead on...yet no response toward that. I take it that you agree with that last point eh?

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


We are really put in a damned-if-we-do, damned-if-we-don't situation by foreigners when it comes to aiding other countries.

If we give money to countries and they misuse that, then we are blamed. Such is the case with Israel and N Korea (I think.)

If we do not give foreign aid and a country starts a war or genocide, like Rwanda, Darfur, Khmer Rouge, we are also blamed for not stopping that.

reply to post by asmeone2



It's a very, very...extremely tricky situation. But I do not think giving out money is the way to go about doing it. From the time money is involved, it can make matters a lot worse. Sometimes, in order to help someone, you must not give them money.

Aid can be given in many ways, financial aid being one way. But, I think the best, and first action should always be to establish a common ground; a meeting if you will. Some rulers are very stubborn and would refuse this, and if that is the case...more planning must go into the action of aiding a country.

It's not a walk in the park, and yes, any government should focus on the land of their people first. But I think people must understand that we are not living in the US, or Japan, or Haiti...we live on the planet Earth. Helping one another should be a serious priority...the problem is, establishing ways and means of helping one another, not solely depending on financial aid to do so.

I'm not saying I know how to do so, I'm saying it should be done, by some way and some means...excluding "always throwing money out."

Originally posted by ConservativeJack


what other people

experienced identical *your word* suffering as Jews during WW2

These, for one:

Other groups were also persecuted and killed, including the Roma; Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; the disabled; homosexual men; and political and religious opponents.

en.wikipedia.org...

I also found this on WikiAnswers:

Holocaust death statistics

Holocaust is a word meaning "great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire." It is usually reserved for man-made disasters (e.g. "nuclear holocaust"). When used to refer to genocide, the word generally refers to the deaths of Jews and other victims of Nazi Germany during World War 2. (It is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish régime).

Although the true figure may never be known, here are estimates:

* 11 million people died.

* 6 million of these were Jewish (close to two thirds of Europe's Jewish population).

* Up to 250,000 were Roma/Sinti (Gypsies).

* 1.5 million were children.

In addition, Hitler targeted homosexuals, communists and other political dissidents, , slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses, dissidents, some Protestant pastors and Catholic priests, black people, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The figures include the camps as well as the mass graves in the countryside, killings on the street, organized mass shootings (such as Babi Yar, etc.) and basically, any person singled out for their religion, political beliefs, or their sexual orientation.

There are approximately 250 Holocaust museums and centres around the world where you can learn more, as well as extensive information elsewhere on the Internet.

So, out of 11,000,000 deaths, 6,000,000 were Jewish people. But, to my understanding, the actual number of Jewish people is still not completely certain.

The point is, yes, of course others groups were killed in the holocaust, not just Jewish people. I do not understand why their deaths seem to bear more importance than those of all the Roma, Polish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals, Black people, Russians, or the mentally challenged who were also killed.

As I said before, all those other groups are human as well, not just Jewish people. It was tragic for all involved, not just one demographic.

Originally posted by chickenshoes

Originally posted by ConservativeJack


what other people

experienced identical *your word* suffering as Jews during WW2

These, for one:

Other groups were also persecuted and killed, including the Roma; Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; the disabled; homosexual men; and political and religious opponents.

en.wikipedia.org...

I also found this on WikiAnswers:

Holocaust death statistics

Holocaust is a word meaning "great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire." It is usually reserved for man-made disasters (e.g. "nuclear holocaust"). When used to refer to genocide, the word generally refers to the deaths of Jews and other victims of Nazi Germany during World War 2. (It is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish régime).

Although the true figure may never be known, here are estimates:

* 11 million people died.

* 6 million of these were Jewish (close to two thirds of Europe's Jewish population).

* Up to 250,000 were Roma/Sinti (Gypsies).

* 1.5 million were children.

In addition, Hitler targeted homosexuals, communists and other political dissidents, , slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses, dissidents, some Protestant pastors and Catholic priests, black people, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The figures include the camps as well as the mass graves in the countryside, killings on the street, organized mass shootings (such as Babi Yar, etc.) and basically, any person singled out for their religion, political beliefs, or their sexual orientation.

There are approximately 250 Holocaust museums and centres around the world where you can learn more, as well as extensive information elsewhere on the Internet.

So, out of 11,000,000 deaths, 6,000,000 were Jewish people. But, to my understanding, the actual number of Jewish people is still not completely certain.

The point is, yes, of course others groups were killed in the holocaust, not just Jewish people. I do not understand why their deaths seem to bear more importance than those of all the Roma, Polish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals, Black people, Russians, or the mentally challenged who were also killed.

As I said before, all those other groups are human as well, not just Jewish people. It was tragic for all involved, not just one demographic.

hope your not trying to convince me that the jews didn't actually die?

are u one of those,...

Holocaust never happened luns' ?

I have read 9,000,000 as high as 12,000,000 Jews died.

So you need to do some more research telling me that Romanians suffered more? LMFAO

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by sdrawkcabII

 

We are really put in a damned-if-we-do, damned-if-we-don't situation by foreigners when it comes to aiding other countries.

If we give money to countries and they misuse that, then we are blamed. Such is the case with Israel and N Korea (I think.)

If we do not give foreign aid and a country starts a war or genocide, like Rwanda, Darfur, Khmer Rouge, we are also blamed for not stopping that.

There is also the problem, for us the ignorant masses, that our governments engage in secret diplomacy. Deals are struck that are never put on paper or made a matter of public record. I was talking to a friend of mine earlier, and he explained that there exists an agreement with China for no one to get involved in Darfur. No matter how bad that situation gets no one is to get involved because it is China's baby. Presumably, since China (I am informed) has had 'interests' in that region since the '50s, part of that agreement entailed the Chinese not interfering with operations in Indochina and the such like. It is all trade off. As long as an agreement exists the other cheek is turned, innocent lives don't even enter into the equation, that simply represents collateral damage.

Originally posted by ConservativeJack

hope your not trying to convince me that the jews didn't actually die?

are u one of those,...

Holocaust never happened luns' ?

I have read 9,000,000 as high as 12,000,000 Jews died.

So you need to do some more research telling me that Romanians suffered more? LMFAO

First of all, stop trying to put words in my mouth. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were trying to bait me. I will not take it.

Now, I never, ever once even implied that Jewish people did not suffer and die in the Holocaust. If you actually have a quote from me stating that or something to that effect, I'd appreciate you sharing.


As I said before and will say again, other people besides just the Jews suffered just as much. The Jews were not the only ones murdered, and I'm pretty sure you must know that.

Oh, and the Roma are not Romanian. They are Gypsies. Maybe you are the one who needs to do more research.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edited to add] I notice that you did not provide a source for your numbers in your above post, like I did. Perhaps you are one of those "loons" who pulls numbers out of the air in a futile attempt to make a point.



[edit on 1/1/2009 by chickenshoes]

Originally posted by chickenshoes

Originally posted by ConservativeJack

hope your not trying to convince me that the jews didn't actually die?

are u one of those,...

Holocaust never happened luns' ?

I have read 9,000,000 as high as 12,000,000 Jews died.

So you need to do some more research telling me that Romanians suffered more? LMFAO

First of all, stop trying to put words in my mouth. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were trying to bait me. I will not take it.

Now, I never, ever once even implied that Jewish people did not suffer and die in the Holocaust. If you actually have a quote from me stating that or something to that effect, I'd appreciate you sharing.


As I said before and will say again, other people besides just the Jews suffered just as much. The Jews were not the only ones murdered, and I'm pretty sure you must know that.

Oh, and the Roma are not Romanian. They are Gypsies. Maybe you are the one who needs to do more research.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edited to add] I notice that you did not provide a source for your numbers in your above post, like I did. Perhaps you are one of those "loons" who pulls numbers out of the air in a futile attempt to make a point.



[edit on 1/1/2009 by chickenshoes]

So you still have failed to really create an argument

you are basically annoyingly saying Jews died but so did Romanians

which is fine

but its an obvious and annoying point to keep saying.

do your own research kid,

google, how many jews died holocuast, scan a few websites, find 9,000,000 and 12,000,000

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
google, how many jews died holocuast, scan a few websites, find 9,000,000 and 12,000,000

Could this be your problem? Not that that figure is right or wrong.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
google, how many jews died holocuast, scan a few websites, find 9,000,000 and 12,000,000

Could this be your problem? Not that that figure is right or wrong.

i have no problem lmao

Another sad attempt at devaluing the genocide of the Jewish people. What other intention could you possible have. All i see is the constant repeating of it wasn't just the jews, it wasnt just the jews.... Its really pathetic and anybody will half a brain can see what your real intentions are.


Maybe your next point will be that Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy?

this is a GREAT thread..
i have learned from it..
it is in a way, a good sign, that people still talk about this historical event, and try to sort out the lessons..
i was very fortunate as a child, to have lived amongst people who had experienced this history, SO short a time before relating to me. for them, it was the year, if not the day before..
their eyes would reflect the fear and pain, as if it was all the day before.
there may be alot to argue about..
i am glad to see that there is NOT alot of bigotry being fostered here in the arguement.
we can argue statistics, ( i am very thankful for some of the history..)
and i am heartened for some here who remember and relat simular aspects of mass horror on other people, at other times..
hopefully, there are lessons here, hard learned..
that history shows that very bad things happen when maybe other ends are sought..
and thyat anyone can get caught up in the horror, on either side..
and that the evil eventuially turns even on itself.
and that countless are lost, and no one really knows..
it always starts out small.
but after a while, things get so out of control, that no one can stop it.
that even if victors write history, they are never as clean as one would like.
and that we must always be careful not to become what we abhor.
and what might seem rightous at first, will be twisted.
survival is a miracle.
and last, were or which side would any of us choose?
and could we survive?
or help another despite the cost?

good thread.

hard questions, hard lessons.

The worst of all is nobody has heard/cares about the 6 million polish civilians that died. My family was decimated in the second world war.

reply to post by ConservativeJack


Stop insisting that the Roma people are Romanian, it's really annoying. Your lack of knowlege is showing.

And, I provided my information. If you're going to make claims, you should be able to back them up. The burden of proof is certainly not upon me, as far as the numbers you seem to have randomly picked out of thin air.

And as far as my own argument, well, I suppose the amount of suffering one group experiences as compared to another is subjective, however, I did at least provide sources for my information, unlike you.

You cannot say that the Jews suffered more than all the other people who suffered in the holocaust. Well, you can, but that doesn't make you right.

Ok, so since you're evidently far too busy to be bothered to list some sources for your claims, I will do the legwork for you, I suppose.

history1900s.about.com...

www.deathcamps.info...

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

www1.yadvashem.org...

All under 6,000,000.

And I thought I would throw this in:

I recently heard that the number of Jews thought to have died in the holocaust ( 6 million) was recently found to actually be to low of an estimate. Supposedly this was due to some revealed Nazi documents that raised the number by 3+ million. Do you have any information about this?

Thank You very much,

Daniel Mittleman responds:
I am one of the people who answer questions for The Holocaust History Project. I am not familiar with any recently found Nazi documents that would raise the Holocaust death toll by 3 million. I suspect that the information you heard is incorrect.

The estimate of the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust was established by Historians and demographers in the very late 1940s. While 6 million is a shorthand for the estimate (I have seen academic estimates from 4.8 million to 7.5 million), the estimation methodologies used back then have held valid all this time. There have been several subsequent studies all of which have produced findings within the same order of magnitude.

I hope this helps.

www.holocaust-history.org...

And, I thought I would throw this link in, for your reading enjoyment ,about the non Jews who were murdered, since it seems you have a problem with aknowleging that anybody but Jewish people died in the Holocaust.

www.holocaustforgotten.com...

reply to post by asmeone2


Guys like you give what I would call justice not in the judiciary terms but the acknowledgement that is deserved to this atrocity.

Nice to see another who is not a media spokesperson.

Well done.

SF



[edit on 1-1-2009 by XXXN3O]

history1900s.about.com...



"This page gives brief, summary information on the following experiments: freezing/hypothermia, genetic, and twins."

look for :
Medical Experiments of the Holocaust and Nazi Medicine


Genetic Experiments

The Nordic or Aryan Race was the most important goal of the Nazis. It was the largest part of the over all plan. The blonde hair, blue eye, super men were to be the only race. The Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and anyone else that did not meet the race requirements were to by cleansed from society through genocide. Hitler and the German High command made a list rules for the fellow Nazis to follow. The new rules required all SS before marriage must submit to general testing to insure racial purity. The rules for marriage were unbelievably complex. Thousands of marriages were denied. If the laws for marriage were broken it could mean the death penalty.
"

Genetics... the ambitious thing of doctors

If the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had had a right to keep and bear arms there would not have been a holocaust as is clear from my reading of the historic record.

Any population that is left without the ability for its own self defense ends up with protectors that at some point can become predators and a holocaust can happen.

This is why we need a revolution to restore our republic. The rule of law has been altered to allow extra constitutional measures to be under taken by public officials who are supposed to act in the public's interest.

It is this illegitimate expansion of government that has caused such a problem. We can not allow any future administrations to collect such out of constitutional bounds powers again in any future administrations. To do so would be to give up our honor as persons to the small minded political figures who would try to circumvent our rule of law for their own benefit.

reply to post by ConservativeJack


you are saying about some sites, where we can see 12 millions of jews were killed by nazis!!! I'm able to create site where i'll write over 100 millions of jews died, so what???