Whats going on at yellowstone?

I should have hit reply to last night in that long bristly post. I think I overreacted to the whole "I don't want to hear what scientists have to say" thing, since I was restating what the scientists said. At any rate, I should not have a couple of glasses of wine and post here, because that was silly.


Anyway.... This morning there's some weird micro seismic stuff showing up on multiple stations. Started around 9:00 local time. Probably can be seen best at YLA:

www.seis.utah.edu...

but also at YLT and LKWY and a little bit at Mary Lake. Probably others. On GEE it's really easy to see that it's seismic because all the spikes line up on different stations at the same time, and they have the shape of teeny little earthquakes.

reply to post by VX-7R

I'm sure we're boring most of the folks reading this, but I just had to respond to that.

Surely, as a degreed EE, you are well aware that various electronic devices often end up picking up unwanted signals due to failures, corroded connections, or just plain bad design.

In my 35 years of designing, troubleshooting, and integrating telemetry, data acquisition systems, laboratory instruments, radio links, telephone modems and interface equipment, etc., I've seen quite a bit of badly designed or improperly functioning equipment which, unfortunately *does* pick up RF when it's not supposed to do so.

I've seen alarm system PIR detectors respond to police band (150 band FM) transmissions. I've seen tank-level monitors go nuts when company personnel were in the area yacking on their business band radios. I've seen gas chromatographs in a mud-logging truck go bananas when someone keyed up a CB. And I've seen inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometers interfere with their own selves

None of that was the design intent. But it happened nonetheless.

The point is that just because a device is designed to monitor one type of signal does not guarantee that it's impervious to unintended interference from all manner of signals.

In fact, if you look at the paperwork that comes with just about any piece of consumer electronics, you'll often see the required Part 15 labeling specifying:

§ 15.19 labeling requirements.

(a) In addition to the requirements in part 2 of this chapter, a device subject to certification, notification, or verification shall be labeled as follows:

(3) All other devices shall bear the following statement in a conspicuous location on the device:

"This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation. "

So if my properly operating, licensed ham station, putting out 1500 Watts next door to you makes your TV, VCR, Computer, cordless phone, or electric drill go nuts, that's too bad, and it's your responsibility. And if that device causes harmful interference to my ham station (licensed service), then you've got to cease and desist in using it or get it fixed so that it doesn't interfere.

My point with that is just to show that "undesired operation", caused by interference from nearby RF sources is so common that how it's dealt with is even codified in the CFR.

My comment about it being a CB was meant mostly tongue in cheek. But the fact is that it very well *could* be RF interference we're seeing. I'd vote more for the air sampling pump, but....

Anyhow, I'm sure we're driving everyone nuts with this.

And if people want to believe that this is a top secret geyser or harmonic tremor. That's fine. But I'm just offering what my many years of experience in this field tells me is the most likely scenario.

And to me, that's that it is man-caused in some way.

A major "hat's off" to you!!!
I couldn't have said it better myself. God only knows I've seen alot of this stuff for many years in field. Of course you know it doesn't bore me a bit.

So now that we're pretty much aware that it's interference of some sort, we can get back to the business of learning and observing.

Quite frankly, I'm having a ball with this stuff..

73's... Ric...

P.S. Hey! Maybe it's them Scalar EM Dudes...

[edit on 17/1/2009 by raepperle]

reply to post by Mushussu


haha. close enough in my book. But...it's funny, one hit 8 miles from my house last night at 5:30, check it out so. cal. yes, it was a small one, but I put up the prediction for one maybe 3 horus before. I do think anywhere from the Rocky Mountains-West Coast is gonna get hit by a 6.0+ in the near future.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by SpadeofAces]

Um, for those of us who don't know the lie of the land (me for one) I thought this Google Earth snap may be useful. It shows the 'hot spot' (black) and 'domes'. Well I hope it is useful anyway.

Originally posted by SpadeofAces
reply to post by Mushussu

 

haha. close enough in my book. But...it's funny, one hit 8 miles from my house last night at 5:30, check it out so. cal. yes, it was a small one, but I put up the prediction for one maybe 3 horus before. I do think anywhere from the Rocky Mountains-West Coast is gonna get hit by a 6.0+ in the near future.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by SpadeofAces]

Hey you,
With the various thoughts and theories out there of what and how things happen, you want to play your thoughts for the next spot? Which theory do you want to choose and where do you think the next event could be .
lets lighten this thread just a touch and place our thoughts on what we have observed and learned.. if anything. while we wait for more rumblings from Y then back to work. Yes?

Originally posted by VX-7R

I'm sure we're boring most of the folks reading this, but I just had to respond to that.

Surely, as a degreed EE, you are well aware that various electronic devices often end up picking up unwanted signals due to failures, corroded connections, or just plain bad design.

Which is why I said..if those engineers who designed and installed those things did not think of isolation issues and proper shielding to outside EMF, well they need to find another line of work.

Originally posted by VX-7R
In my 35 years of designing, troubleshooting, and integrating telemetry, data acquisition systems, laboratory instruments, radio links, telephone modems and interface equipment, etc., I've seen quite a bit of badly designed or improperly functioning equipment which, unfortunately *does* pick up RF when it's not supposed to do so.

See note above. Even a "fair" designed piece of sensitive device mounted in a rack sitting next to a 20Kw FM transmitter that has an ambient RF field of 750mV at 1 meter and works just fine, surely these valuable siesmic sensors can be designed to be shielded from some CB signal at 4 watts several miles away. If not...see note above.

Originally posted by VX-7R
I've seen alarm system PIR detectors respond to police band (150 band FM) transmissions. I've seen tank-level monitors go nuts when company personnel were in the area yacking on their business band radios. I've seen gas chromatographs in a mud-logging truck go bananas when someone keyed up a CB. And I've seen inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometers interfere with their own selves

Obiously that CB was not operating at its intended max authorized power of 4 watts. Not uncommon for someone using a linear with no proper output filtering will cause all kinds of harmonic interference, especially with those modulation modifications that take the standard 4khz bandwidth out to over 10khz and splatter the entire CB band along with it. Heaven forbid if thy run SSB, that would do worse.

Originally posted by VX-7R
None of that was the design intent. But it happened nonetheless.
The point is that just because a device is designed to monitor one type of signal does not guarantee that it's impervious to unintended interference from all manner of signals.
In fact, if you look at the paperwork that comes with just about any piece of consumer electronics, you'll often see the required Part 15 labeling specifying:

§ 15.19 labeling requirements.

(a) In addition to the requirements in part 2 of this chapter, a device subject to certification, notification, or verification shall be labeled as follows:

(3) All other devices shall bear the following statement in a conspicuous location on the device:

"This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation. "

So if my properly operating, licensed ham station, putting out 1500 Watts next door to you makes your TV, VCR, Computer, cordless phone, or electric drill go nuts, that's too bad, and it's your responsibility. And if that device causes harmful interference to my ham station (licensed service), then you've got to cease and desist in using it or get it fixed so that it doesn't interfere.

If your 1500 max power ham rig was causing interference, I would first suggest that you make or install a better notch filter on the front end and output, and check your design for clean signal if its an amplifier you built. That is every good ham's first priority and I am sure you are aware of that one as am I. Became a ham in 1973. AE ticket. And guess what, its also the responsibility of us licensed radio operators and engineers to make sure our licensed equipment is not causing interference. Just becasue there is a license, that doesnt mean your licensed to be causing interference to other licensed stations or the reception of said licensed stations.

Originally posted by VX-7R
My point with that is just to show that "undesired operation", caused by interference from nearby RF sources is so common that how it's dealt with is even codified in the CFR.

My comment about it being a CB was meant mostly tongue in cheek. But the fact is that it very well *could* be RF interference we're seeing. I'd vote more for the air sampling pump, but....

Anyhow, I'm sure we're driving everyone nuts with this.

And if people want to believe that this is a top secret geyser or harmonic tremor. That's fine. But I'm just offering what my many years of experience in this field tells me is the most likely scenario.

And to me, that's that it is man-caused in some way.

Some way. Perhaps. Could be, maybe. I would say that the geologists and volcanologists would know for sure.

Were not talking about part 15 consumer devices here. Were talking about specialized industrial grade sensors. I know because I have designed some of them that are in use across the country.

Join the club of those with extensive years (35+) of experience with RF devices that reach well above 1500 watts..try something like 100Kw and above.

Granted not everything is 100 percent perfect. I dont need any lecture in electronics thanks. Ive got designs of my own working across 4 different high powered TV and FM broadcast transmitters across 3 different manufacturers that seriously go way byond any 150m narrow band fm ham unit, and earn a pretty decent royalty for those circuit designs. Im well aware of consumer level device interference acceptance.

Now if some new road or new area of a park opens up much later after the installation of said sensor, the geologists looking at those graphs know darn well what they are seeing, what to look for and what to avoid, which is again, another point I have been trying to make here since the first babbling about compressor noise was raised.

These guys reading these graphs are far more expert at decyphering what reading is true and what is not..again another of my points.

Out here, we can guess and speculate and debate what it is or what it is not. But I am confident that all those highly trained geologists and volcanologists know exactly how to tell the difference between some compressor or road noise vs an actual reading of geologic activity.

As I stated also, I do not doubt that the sensors will pick up some man made noise, radio or otherwise. All I am saying, is that they know the difference between the two. Which if you stop and think about that, its damned good thing that they do know the difference and dont go crying wolf over a non happening event. Otherwise there would be "red alerts" going off every time some spike got detected..tho it was just from a snow plow or enthusiastic CB'er running an illegal linear. Look at how many posts in here practically screamed bloody murder when a spike occured!!

Lets also look at the timing of these false readings.

The geologists looking at these graphs are no doubt in contact with the maitenance crews and operators of the air sample compressors, and would most likely "call in" or have a pre-arranged schedule that is known to the geologists so that when the equipment is turned on, the geologists looking at the graphs are not freaking out by the reading.

I am glad those guys up there know what they are doing when looking at these readings. Last thing we need is for another "Sander's paranoia" going on. But we wont see that from those guys looking at the graphs because they know what they are looking at.

Feel glad that there are experts on the front line and not alot of guess work.



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 17-1-2009 by RFBurns]

reply to post by questioningall



If the buffalo start to stampede.....run

Originally posted by manotick
reply to post by questioningall

 

If the buffalo start to stampede.....run

Bison.

Or it could be their radio tags causing the noise on the graphs!

I think the maitenance guys and air sampler operators are playing tricks on everyone since all those geologists know ther are alot of public amateurs monitoring this. They probably visit here and look at all the "OMG" posts about every little spike that takes place!


Cheers!!!!

This is my first time posting here though I have been reading this thread fro quite some time. First off, I found this article that seems to directly refer to the thread here at ats :Msnbc article . I have been reading this thread since dec 28 and (for a while) scared to death. I must admit that I took everything said here with a grain of salt, given the nature of this site etc. I feel very led to say that the scientific community should be damned impressed with all of you and the way that you have sought out knowledge and used it to form theories and explanations for the events in Yellowstone. In the end (if NOTHING ends up happening) we have all been introduced to a field of study that most of us have never considered interesting before the end of 2008! I started on this thread when the pages were still in the single digits and experienced the great "wind noise" debate (addressed in the link that I have provided!) It is absolutely amazing to see how fast you all learn and have a grasp of this stuff....simply because it interests you. You should really consider ( I am not even joking) forming a research group and formulating and testing various hypothesis since as a group, you seem to be able to do very well! That is science at it's purest! I am planning to get a username (it will be Trottyong) but I saw this article that mentions Wind and alludes to ATS and wanted to get it to you before I forgot. Sorry if my format is wrong with respect to the link. Ill get it right next time! Also sorry if like a million people have already offered up that article! Thanks for being patient with this first timer!

reply to post by RFBurns


I dunno, if the USGS & so on are seeing more people paying attention to Yellowstone they'd probably be thrilled. I don't know about you but when swarm was going on I sent a few emails to my congressmen/people & to Obama saying they needed better sensors & more staff at YS.

Public interest drives money to programs.

Also: It is odd that the pipe cleaners clearly show a spike at the start and stop of the signal now, and in one case half a minute after....

If I were a tech out there I'd be bald from all the head scratching I would be doing trying to rule out/clear up the signal.

M.


[edit on 17-1-2009 by Moshpet]

Any one, of the few of us here, actually getting onto GEE or VASE at present? I don't seem to be getting anything.

reply to post by PuterMan


No, I'm glad you said that. I am going to stop fiddling with it on my end. I restarted and reinstalled. Guess it's not just me!

reply to post by Mushussu


Hmmm... No theories, just judging by which faults haven't been overly active/more tension in the near-recent time frame. well they seem to be moving West, so possibly near the Washington/Oregon Border, or still, somewhere north off San Bernardino on the San Andreas, that one could be larger though.

reply to post by SpadeofAces


OK, I think the Oregon/Cal coastal area/border and still Eastern oregon Boise area.

And then again, we could both be blown off by something near the Oaklahoma pan handle.

GEE is not coming up for me either.
Frustrating!

[edit on 17-1-2009 by Mushussu]

Any one watching OF stills and webcam? Looks like smoke and cant believe the amount snow melt. No sightseers on a saturday?

The monitor shows activity but not on the site.

reply to post by questioningall


The big looking traces around 8 are more Mammoth Fault daytime activity, note that you don't see it anywhere else. This and the generally spread out disorganized look of it tells you that it's probably cultural. Go back several days and you will see the similar activity every day at similar times:

isthisthingon.org...

The smaller stuff below it is some local micro seismic stuff, probably below Magnitude 1, you won't see it on the earthquake map.

For all:

I found more info about Thursday night's quake from the Jackson Hole Daily:

U.S. Geological Survey officials say the quake registered a magnitude 3.7, although officials with the Geologists of Jackson Hole say the federal agency likely will revise that estimate to a magnitude 4.0 after researchers take a closer look at the data. The quake occurred on the south end of a so-called “seismic gap” that extends north into Yellowstone National Park, where an earthquake swarm of more than 500 earthquakes shook the ground near Yellowstone Lake earlier this year, said Peter Ward, a Geologists of Jackson Hole board member and a former earthquake specialist with the U.S. Geological Survey. Ward said the gap is an area of low seismic activity on the Teton Fault surrounded by areas of high activity. Other seismic gaps around the globe have resulted in large earthquakes, but that may not apply here, he said. “That is exactly the zone that broke in the last, biggest Teton Fault earthquake,” Ward said. “They go for a long period of time without any activity. There’s no way of being able to predict whether the earthquake will be tonight or whether it will be in 100 years.” “The chance of anything happening is very, very, very low,” he said. “We are very concerned that people not get overexcited. It’s like fastening the seat belt in your car; it is reasonable to take a few precautions. It’s simply a wake-up call.” Ward advised residents to make a family emergency plan, store emergency supplies, make sure gas connections are flexible, and fasten down delicate things around the home. Ward said it is particularly important to remove heavy items from over beds so they don’t fall on a sleeping individual during a quake. Family members also should know how to shut off water, gas and electric inputs to the home. Wally Ulrich, Wyoming Geological Survey Board chairman, agreed. “Be prepared and pay attention,” he said. “It’s part of living here.” Ulrich called the Teton Fault an “ominously silent area.” “When you get activity on both ends, it makes geologists look very carefully because it may or may not have an effect on the structure that is there. This is a real concern of ours. People shouldn’t panic; just be prudent,” he said. Wyoming State Geological Survey Director Ronald C. Surdam said more monitoring equipment is needed in the area to analyze seismic events.

Link:
www.jhguide.com...

reply to post by quakewatcher


Great find. Interesting - so is he saying something - without really saying it?

A little double talk in the article in my opinion. Don't you think?

Okay..I'll jump into the game. I will take a chance at looking stupid and make a very 'light' prediction.

As I have said before, I have been monitoring the EQ's of the world for years, and I believe that after some time you CAN see a clear pattern. SO...they have had a couple of major quakes this past few weeks accross the world on the other side of the ring of fire. There have now, more recently been a couple of moderate quakes down in South America...if you look at the current USGS map of the world:

MAP

You will note that even MORE recently the activity has picked up all up and down the West Coast. I sense that the tension has shifted and is building up to a bigger release in this area. Time frame? Well..that is harder to predict, but I would guess sometime in the next few days to a week. The West coast and Alaska is a large area...so to make it a little more fun, I will say that either there will be several moderate quakes (in the 4-5 range) clustered in Alaska to relieve the pressure, or a major (5.8-7.0) either on the coast of California or Washington. My bet is Washigton, just because we are due, and also because I live here and have noticed an increase in 2.0 range mag quakes around here in unusuall places.

And finally there is just my gut. It is telling me something is brewing...hope I'm wrong!

[edit on 17-1-2009 by westcoast]

[edit on 17-1-2009 by westcoast]

Here's something that is really interesting.

Check out this day, December 4th:

isthisthingon.org...

What's that all about?