Morality

Morality, in my opinion, these days is used to justify telling other people what to do. Like the OP stated morality has been used to illegalize many things which in other words is fascism. For instance, like the example of prostitution in the OP it is nothing more transaction for a service. The customer wanted sex more than he wanted to keep his money. The Prostitute is willing give her service for money. It is a win win because both parties benefit from the transaction. Same goes for many things like drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc. If I am willing to pay for something that is potentially dangerous to my health, is that not my choice? Who are these people that want to limit my choices because of morality?

Look at the FDA and other equivalents. They limit people's choices by making choices for people on what is and what is not safe. By their "moral code" (whatever that is) any drug that potentially will harm people is not considered safe so it is not allowed. How many life saving drugs have been put on the shelf because of their "morality"? How many people have died while waiting the 10-15 years for them to allow drugs that can save people now?

When people use morality to justify saving people from themselves, they have then become fascist.

My opinion is that the freedom to choose to do whatever I want so long as I do not impede on other peoples freedom is the highest form of morality.

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


That's exactly what I think is going on! We are given the illusion of having a choice or a set of choices, and while we do have them to a degree, we always have someone to tell us when our choices are right and wrong like some giant social midterm.

I had a friend that was committed to a psych ward a while back and they analyzed the hell out of him just because a couple of his neighbors reported that he was strange or something like that.

Oh you've hit this spot on with me. I currently live in Central Florida, a part of the state that is hugely populated with old people who like to tell me and my few friends that we are wrong.

What part of Central Florida? I lived in Ocala(aka Hell) for the longest time and the crap pay, sky high rent, and old people abuse can give anyone a chip on the shoulder that people from other parts of the world just don't understand.

I remember the first time I moved to just outside of Nashville and the cheap rent, plenty of jobs and not seeing old people TOTALLY weirded me out. When a guy I met just after getting their got fired from a $10 an hour job people would kill for in Florida just went and got another job completely freaked me out. Then the dirt low rent...yikes! If you were broke you could just get a job and then you wouldn't be broke. No more of 50-70% of income to rent!

Living in areas like that give you a SERIOUSLY skewed view of the world...did for me anyway and I had a big chip on my shoulder for a long time.

reply to post by SonOfChaos


I live in Palm Bay. I've only lived here for 4 years and the thing is that I've been kind of singled out by the rest of the population because I grew up in California. The whole time I've been here, whenever I meet new people and say I'm from Cali they say "Oh you're from that gay state". After that they tend to avoid me especially if we touch on any "morality" subjects.

I belive, as other posters have stated, that there are a few absolute moral truths in this world. For example, it is wrong to commit unjustifiable acts of violence against others and it is wrong to steal.

The difficult problem with morality is that it is hard to clearly define these absolute truths. It is also difficult to define where the exceptions (if they exist) lie. For example, people still debate whether one may steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving family. Pacifists believe all violence is wrong, while others believe violence is permissible in certain circumstances like self-defense.

To further complicate morality, many societies have created secondary moral rules that prevent people from violating absolute moral rules. The belief is taht if something can lead to immorality, then it is immoral. These secondary moral rules may seem dogmatic or nonsensical because one can violate the rules without violating an absolute moral rule.

Take drinking as an example. Many societies and religions claim drinking is immoral. One is more likely to violate an absolute moral rule if they drink. Drunk people are more likely to get into fights and harm others. It is possible, however, to have a drink without committing violence, stealing, or violating some other absolute moral rule. And in fact, many people do drink and remain moral.

Perhaps this thread can be advanced if we try to discern the absolute moral rules, like refraining from unjustified violence, from the secondary moral rules, like refraining from drinking. Secondary moral rules can easily be attaked because they can (and often are) violated without violating absolute moral rules.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


"Moral v. Immoral, HhhMMm?"

Morality is an assumption of correctness in the product of public views and discretions.
There is "The team is loosing by one point, time to boost their moral!!" kind of acknowledgements, then there is "Sir, the whole platoon was wiped out and morals are low.", and the inevitable of them all "What is that guy talking about, 'Abortion' doesn't he have any morals?".

"HHhhhMMmm?" There was another poster that had mentioned it was nothing more than personal analogies of ones actions and ways of life, think I will have to go with that one, "His post boosted my Morals!!" And not to mention, made it a hell of a lot easier to take ridicule as constructive criticisms!!

With inquiries such as this, "Majic, your 'MORALS' are just fine!!"

And by the way, the next time you get into one of those conversations with your new neighbors, just say "Yeh, I am from there, how long have you been ugly?" and walk away!!!

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I belive, as other posters have stated, that there are a few absolute moral truths in this world. For example, it is wrong to commit unjustifiable acts of violence against others and it is wrong to steal.

The difficult problem with morality is that it is hard to clearly define these absolute truths. It is also difficult to define where the exceptions (if they exist) lie. For example, people still debate whether one may steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving family. Pacifists believe all violence is wrong, while others believe violence is permissible in certain circumstances like self-defense.

To further complicate morality, many societies have created secondary moral rules that prevent people from violating absolute moral rules. The belief is taht if something can lead to immorality, then it is immoral. These secondary moral rules may seem dogmatic or nonsensical because one can violate the rules without violating an absolute moral rule.

Take drinking as an example. Many societies and religions claim drinking is immoral. One is more likely to violate an absolute moral rule if they drink. Drunk people are more likely to get into fights and harm others. It is possible, however, to have a drink without committing violence, stealing, or violating some other absolute moral rule. And in fact, many people do drink and remain moral.

People also confuse religious taboos, rites, and idiosyncracies with morality. This further muddies the debate. Reciting certain incantations, wearing certain garments, appearing at a church are in and of themselves not moral acts. Eating "unclean foods," watching football on Sunday instead of going to a church, forgetting to pray, or urinating on Koran is not immoral per se.

Perhaps this thread can be advanced if we try to discern the absolute moral rules, like refraining from unjustified violence, from the secondary moral rules, like refraining from drinking. Secondary moral rules can easily be attaked because they can (and often are) violated without violating absolute moral rules. The debate can be further advanced by disregarding religious taboos and idiosyncracies.

Originally posted by Allred5923
And by the way, the next time you get into one of those conversations with your new neighbors, just say "Yeh, I am from there, how long have you been ugly?" and walk away!!!

That made my day.

Well, welcome to Florida.

Florida is a tough state to make a living in and people are INCREDIBLY cliquish here, I've lived in Illinois(suburb of Chicago), Nashville, West Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky and a I'm sure a couple more I forgot and all I can say is keep repeating to yourself that this is not the real world...

Seriously, Florida warped me, but I'm searching for advice I would've given myself if I did it over. Of course, myself in the harder core than thou mindset of youth did not help...

Okay here is the change/actions "you" can make if you will listen to me...I probably wouldn't have listened to my future self back then so I won't feel bad if you don't follow said advice.

1. Lighten up. Florida folk can't handle intensity, they just don't know how to react to it except "your weird". I will wave my freak flag high but when back in Florida I developed an approach that helps me communicate better without changing who I am. My intensity of everything I do served me enormously well when I left the state and people just see you as extreme rather than an aberration.

2. Why do you want to communicate to others? Do you fill unfullfilled/friendless? In comparing our similar situations I'd describe you as smart, competent but does not communicate well with others. Do you want sex with a certain girl? Do you need approval? Needs DO NOT denote weakness...the inability to recognise them because of our need to be the ideal man is dangerous. Learn to associate with people on a non-philosophical level...that is one of my worst traps I worked VERY hard on overcoming. I use ATS and other forums to blow off my self-righteous steam. If you have any good indy coffee shops/music venues those can be good places too...

3. When communications do not go the way you would like, change your approach. Period. Do not do the same thing over, this is not changing who you ARE. If you need recognition/friends/whatever NEVER be afraid to go for it, and if you fall flat it is a LESSON and the longer you wait to do it again and again the harder it gets.

4. Communicate with the opposite sex, ALOT. Popular/unpopular, doesn't matter. You will get respect from EVERYONE for your prowess. You don't gotta sleep with em, you don't have to mistreat them. If you are not sure how, look at a guy/girl who is popular on their personality alone. Don't change who you are, just change how communicate who you are. The person with the popularity does not necessarily denote bad, it simply means they are good with people.

5. Learn from other peoples social mistakes. If you really LISTEN you will hear them. We humans are creatures of habit, you must override this instinct of doing the same thing over in social situations.

6. Not knowing what to do is fine, not doing anything is not. Be spontaneous, BUT always conciously do a run through of what people will think before you do it. It may seem contradictory but people who are spontaneous tend to have a massive database in their heads of actions, reactions and what works. That's why they ARE spontaneous. We all come up with stuff off the tops of our heads, they know how to filter to the right ones at the right time.

7. Timing what you say is more important than what you say.
8. Body language is more important than what you say. When talking to women this is especially true.

Best of luck, you got hard times ahead, I know that for sure.

As always feel free to ignore the above advice, it MAY seem like common sense but think about how often people show no common sense. Work on one area, than the next...etc. until you have to find more areas to work on.

Of course you could just ignore me

reply to post by SonOfChaos


I see where you are coming from absolutely. The thing is, I've pretty much figured out the things I "can" say and the things I "can't" say around a good majority of the people here. I have a few friends, but we're all in the same boat, not really from here and generally disliked by the rest of the public.

As a matter of fact, I've stopped bringing up those touchy subjects entirely, only really getting into debates/arguments when someone really wants my opinion. Doesn't really end well ever, but I'm ready to get the hell out of here anyway, so I guess I'm over the whole Florida thing.

Nice advice though.

One thing I'd like to add is if you got a group going focus on producing a new culture. It may sound weird but check out...

www.krecs.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

This is a good example of an isolated place that most people would say sucks. One guy bound everyone together, actively recruited more people and basically created his own culture.

Take the DIY punk ethos of don't consume culture, produce culture. You are in a unique position to create something truely unique, you may not realize it but PRODUCE PRODUCE PRODUCE. Abandoned houses, turn into hangouts and artwork. Drainage systems, drench them in Grafitti. If the people around you produce art that sucks...support them and get them too do more, it will evolve into something beautiful. Unite all artist and create something new. If at the end of the day you have nothing to show others then you have wasted the day.
If you are not sure how that Olympia is a good place to start.

Just some additional thoughts as you remind me a lot of myself.

reply to post by SonOfChaos


You know, we actually had a similar idea and are trying to organize together a little bit at the moment. It's really cool that there is support for the idea out there.

Awesome.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


I really like this idea of separating "secondary" and "absolute" immoral behavior. Maybe the those of us reading the thread could contribute ideas that would help us form some sort of list so we can further the discussion.

Morality is the enslavement of all human in what there are not.
Morality in all culture, religion, society, civilization, is the dualistic approach of what life is for them.
One usually becomes immoral from one opposite point of view emitted from another.
“You don’t think like us so you are immoral”
One is amoral in definition of not holding any value good or bad that are generated by culture, religions, societies, or civilizations.
You are “amoral” at an early age when you are born. As a baby you have no morals what’s or ever.
Morale comes to you in programming.
As a baby every thing around you is nether bad or good, it just is.
Maybe you should crave or seek this first instant of our life when everything was as it is and not as we wanted to be.
I forgot this also. Moral is in our society associated with responsibility…moral responsibility!
Responsibility will make you accountable for your behavior, good or bad.
Moral force you to choose one side.
Kacou.

Morality: A precise dictionary definition.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
n.
1. The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
2. A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
3. morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

Moral Absolutes.

I don't necessarily support the idea that a concept like morality could ever be absolute, because there will always be exceptions to every rule.
That said. my own personal absolute morals (otherwise known as core values) would be:

1. Do not inflict unnecessary cruelty or pain on any other being.
2. Do not kill.

.... everything else I could add, I can't consider to be close to absolute.

For example:

Do not lie - Santa Claus anyone??
Do not judge others - Adolph Hitler....hmmmm
Do not gamble or drink - I bet most of you have tried at some point in your life a liquored dessert or christmas caked in your life.
Prositution is bad - Pro-choice and then back to the not judge line...
Drugs are bad - precisely which ones? Medical science seems to like 'em.

I can think of dozens of good/bad scenarios. But a list of absolute maxium morals is very difficult.

I think the line from an Manga could best sum this up.

"I have seen Mortality and Human rights, but I have yet to see them in use." It went something like that, to lazy to backtrack to it again though, but pretty nice line. So many people talk of it and ask people to pick it up, but whenever the going gets rough it seems that the ball is dropped and majority of the time all hell usually breaks loose. To those that have stated agaisnt the OP for being immoral because of smoking and drinking, I think it can best be said that those who do say that are perhaps on a high horse sorta speak. Most of the things that the OP stated really aren't immoral, but rather things that really should be done from the get go (though not the smoking and drinking )

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by d60944

 

I don't think you're getting my point here. I listed both of those things and then asked the question: What is it that determines why one thing (your x, y, and z) is considered immoral while another (your a, b, and c) is considered to be a "moral" quality?

morality is suggestive and therefore not a good term to describe right and wrong. it's equivalent to beauty or taste. OP, you don't need a term to validate you being a good person. your goodness has a reward that needs no name or publicity at all. being good and helping others is an addicting feeling inside that maybe should be left private and safe from exploitation and manipulation. think about it, when have you ever heard morals come up and not be used against someone?

thoughts of killing or stealing are undeniable. i don't think we should combine these with debatable topics and personal choices? for me personally, believing prostitution and drug use could somehow be immorally equivalent to murder and rape, is ridiculous. morality has become as watered down as patriotism. sadly, both terms tend to become redefined as politically necessary.

george w. was elected to his second term mainly for his "moral values". people voted for him in '04, after countless IMmoral acts, more than any other reason, for his " moral values". if this is modern morality, how can you possibly respect or want it? i doubt i need to go in to any details regarding junior and his moral achievements. i challenge anyone to find a better example of immorality than GWB?

as for america, who are we kidding anyway? what does america know about morals? after we slaughtered the indians, enslaved the blacks, nuked the japanese, sanction the cubans to death, bully the panamanians, impoverish the indonesians, starve the africans, worship the jews, blow the british royals, ignore the americans and terrorize the arabs, who the hell are we to talk about morals anyway!?

This list can be altered as discussion furthers(maybe this can become an 'immorality tree':

Absolute Immoralities
Intentionally inflicting any unnecessary damage or pain to an individual.

Secondary Immoralities(as derived from absolutes)
Rape
Molestation
Torture
Murder
Suicide
Battery


P.S. Zerbst...this isn't about me, I was an example. This is actually about morality and the way it get's thrown around as an attack against anything that strays from the 'norm'.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
This list can be altered as discussion furthers(maybe this can become an 'immorality tree':

Absolute Immoralities
Intentionally inflicting any unnecessary damage or pain to an individual.

Secondary Immoralities(as derived from absolutes)
Rape
Molestation
Torture
Murder
Suicide
Battery


P.S. Zerbst...this isn't about me, I was an example. This is actually about morality and the way it get's thrown around as an attack against anything that strays from the 'norm'.

right on, when i said you, i meant you,me, all of us. i completely get your thread. great topic, this practice of twisting and diluting the true meanings of words and things in general escalated with george w. & co.. these guys introduced the "anything becomes truth if it's repeated enough" phenomenon. you could start another list with words and phrases that lost meaning in the last 8 years? words like patriot, democracy, liberty, terror, muslim, moral values, WMD, etc...

reply to post by Zerbst


Good idea Zerbst! Maybe I can set something up and come up with a new thread. It would definitely make for an interesting subject matter.