Morality

I have seen "morality" be thrown around a lot as a counterpoint to people who question the social norm, and I don't think it's a really fair or valid point of argument. Morality is one of those things, much like beauty, that changes with each person, country and culture. So you hold different standards for yourself, that doesn't mean that anyone else's standards are wrong. Just not for you.

I've been called immoral for drinking and smoking.
For not having a problem with nudity.
For thinking that kids shouldn't be shielded from knowledge of sex.
For being pro-choice, pro-death penalty and pro-gay.
For liking to gamble.
For thinking drugs should be legalized.
And for thinking that prostitution should be legal.
(There are more but I'm only listing the ones I get called out on the most)

Now, all those things being said, what I don't understand is why. I'm one of the most loyal people you'll ever meet; I help anyone that I can, most of the time dropping everything to do so. I stand up for people who can't do it themselves, many times at my own expense. And everyone that actually knows me always says that they know they can come to me when they're feeling down and I can have them laughing in five minutes.

I'm not a bad person and I think I have a pretty good code of honor. But most say I'm immoral. And I'm not only talking about me here. I've seen it happen to many other people to, and I think it's a shame. They're basically good, but their differing beliefs and standards mark them as unethical people.

So I guess my question here is: Why?

What is it that determines something's morality against another?

Wow! I could have written that except for a word or two... And it's a great question! Why? Since I'm not one who would call you immoral, I can only guess at the answer. And I have a couple ideas.

One is that it's human nature to make the "other guy" wrong, so I can feel right. So, for someone who has a problem with nudity, is anti-choice and basically anti-personal liberty, your position seems so "different" that they feel compelled to put distance between you and themselves, so they can feel ok about their positions. Therefore, they tell themselves (and you apparently) that you are immoral, because that's far from moral, which is how they see themselves.

Another possibility is religion. It's possible that their religion speaks against the ideals you hold. It's common (in my experience) to be told that my values are not in line with theirs, and therefore are to be condemned. I find there's not a lot of room for being "different" in conventional religion.

I'll be interested to see the other responses.

Excellent Question mate. Well I look at Morality as being taught by family, religion, philosphy, experience, ethics and culture. I treat everyone the way I would want to be treated, mind you I do not smoke, I do not gamble, nor am I pro-choice, but I do not think your immoral, because those are only your beliefs not yourself. I personally am centered in consequences if something is going to have a very bad consequence like murder and drugs I view it as immoral. I personally think the Ten commandents are great set of laws to follow, can you imagine if the world followed those rules how happier everyone would be. But I suppose morality is decided by each individual. Some cheat and lie, while others are hard working. I mean we all pick what rules to follow and what rules to break, its whatever rules/beliefs that we choose to follow. Al-Queda chooses to kill in the name of Allah, Theives steal to get money, gangs use threats to control there turf- imagine if the moral compass was in there hands. I also believe that we are all born with some sense of right and wrong, but in the end its the make up of our family, culture, religion, experience and everything that makes our lives go around.

Originally posted by TheMythLives
I also believe that we are all born with some sense of right and wrong, but in the end its the make up of our family, culture, religion, experience and everything that makes our lives go around.

I couldn't have said this better myself.
Thanks to you and Benevolent Heretic for your feedback

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


No problem mate, it was pleasure and a very good question that got me thinking. Keep the ideas coming.

'morality' is just aother 'tool' used by people to keep em against each other by making some superior (the ones who are 'moral') and some inferior (the ones who are immoral). Or in other words its just another part of the old 'divide and conquer',keep people down through fear and isolation crap..........its set in place and 'run' by the people very basic and very effective.Its 'society', its 'class', its 'ignorance' its a good example of following the herd and the mob mentailty at work. Its the old majority (moral) against minority (immoral) and the majority vote seems to be what deems what is moral and what isnt in all cultures. What this is tho is very easily 'told' to people in all ways imaginable so they think its what they think themselves but its not....but never mind, f**k morality .....if someone want to tell me morality then when they practice what they preach they'll get my attention....til then I'm more than happy to be considerd immoral if it means the opposite of whats 'moral' and practised by this society at the present.....................

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

Now, all those things being said, what I don't understand is why.

What is it that determines something's morality against another?

Because some believe there "ARE" some things that are right or wrong in every scenario. What determines anyone's morality is their own understanding.
If I am 37 and I do not see why it is wrong to have a spouse or "close friend" at the age of 10, then maybe I don't understand the social imbalance of my maturity or the child's, and I make it "ok" in my mind, as the child does in theirs. Spreading knowledge and learning from our past, creating new scenarios of different situations, where we might find ourselves disagreeing with "our own norms".

I think it is truly realizing that we are imperfect, and flawed in countless ways. In almost every attempt to please everyone, there seems to always be a failure in understanding on someones part. If all you care about is yourself, and a few others, than you have that too, but then all someone has to do is point out that you don't care and you're back to square one with why you should have to.

It takes more than yourself to realize anything is right or wrong to begin with, because most can agree that everything that feels right is possibly very wrong and vice versa

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

[List of lots of "immoral" qualities others have claimed you have]

Now, all those things being said, what I don't understand is why.

[List of "good" qualities" showing why you are not immoral]

I'm not a bad person and I think I have a pretty good code of honor. But most say I'm immoral. And I'm not only talking about me here. I've seen it happen to many other people to, and I think it's a shame. They're basically good, but their differing beliefs and standards mark them as unethical people.

This contains a huge logical fallacy though. On one hand you seem to be saying that x, y and z are claimed to be "bad" by some people. Yet your qualities a, b and c are - to you - "good". And that therefore we can ignore x, y and z for some reason, but still allow a, b and c.

You are holding up one moral standard (things that are good) and using it argue that the things which are "bad" should be cancelled out by it. Or something very similar.

If you want to attack the very notion of immorality I am afraid the logically consistent way to do it is to also admit that there can be no good (i.e. moral) qualities either. If there is no reason to condemn someone for doing something "immoral" (because it is only your own viewpoint, inapplicable to anyone else, that says it is so), then by the same standard you must never admire a quality in anyone, nor must try to do anything "right" (it is just your own viewpoint that says these things are "right" and you have no right to foist that onto anyone or impute the quality either): The whole shebang has to go.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick

I agree with all your "immoralities" (except the death penalty - kind of on the fence on that one), TasteTheMagick! I don't think they are immoral.
Many people mean "what I don't like" when they say immoral.

reply to post by d60944


I don't think you're getting my point here. I listed both of those things and then asked the question: What is it that determines why one thing (your x, y, and z) is considered immoral while another (your a, b, and c) is considered to be a "moral" quality?

I can't say whether or not you are immoral because I prefer not to judge you. We are all at different stages in our personal evolution, so what one person feels is right, will not necessarily feel that way to another.

Many people never change their philosophy throughout their lives, and it remains where it was when they signed on for this incarnation. Others make huge changes and look back and see that what they thought was 'right' at the time, was no longer so by their current philosophy.

You can't even use the laws of your country as a yardstick either, because some laws could be seen as immoral themselves, so I think your question is a bit like: "How long is a piece of string?"

The important things to look at in your character are: Love, Compassion, Kindness, Helpfulness, Reliability & Spirituality.

These things are key to our successful spiritual evolution, and by that I don't mean that they have anything to do with religion. It is possible to be spiritual without having a religion, and it is possible not to be very spiritual when having a religion.

Your morals are your business, but if you always try amd aim for the highest standards possible with your character, you won't go far wrong.

Morality is a point of view and always differs from each point of view. As long as you are satisfied with your ponit of view, does anyone else's point of view to your satisfaction of your morality matter?

Dont waste any effort trying to figure out why others consider your morailty questionable because if those who did spent the time questioning their own, they might find something very disturbing.



Cheers!!!!

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


Why are you called immoral?
Because you can’t be controlled.

With few exceptions to what you listed I too have a similar set of morals.
And that allows me a freedom to be safe from living under anyone's thumb.

Since I’m accountable for what I do I’m also safe with my conscience too.
I’d much rather be considered *immoral* by those around me, than a hypocrite in my own eyes.

Peace

Thanks for the feedback from everyone, it is interesting to read all your views. I would like to make one note. I was only using myself as an example so this isn't really just my morality in question here. I want to discuss what makes something moral or immoral.

Thanks to silo13, RFBurns and Tallsorts for basically reminding me of why I don't change for anyone

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


Bravo TasteTheMagick! Great thread and a VERY valid question. I think people like to hide behind it as a broad shield. Perhaps they have no proof to back something up so they use morality.

What I think is intresting is that moarlity insinuates the betterment of all... Few times that it is brought up is it used in this sense.

I think is more than likely used as a generic band aid to cover numerous situations and items.

I have been guilty of using it now and again. Moraility is too broad a subject.

Kudos!

I think morality that transcends cultural values is more along the lines of something real, as opposed to what you are taught or what you like or dislike. I think it's common sense. Your drug use is a touchy subject, because on one hand if you are doing drugs in moderation and it's not destroying your life or the lives of those who are close to you, then it should not be judged as being something which is "immoral". However if you've become a heroine addict and you are stealing from everyone and your health is declining and you are exposing people you love to your wreckage, then you are disregarding their wellbeing and that could be considered "immoral".

Prostitution... I wouldn't say anyone has the right to make it "illegal" because I believe in a government (or possibly no government at all) which does not intervene in the personal life choices of a person. If a person wants to murder, then they will eventually suffer natural consequences for it.
It's kind of hard in today's climate to have that type of natural order, because there are so many corrupt and selfish people out there.
So the problem with prostitution now is that these women who choose to do this are mostly vagrant drug users who have been pushed to the edge and believe they have no other choice. So they do it to make quick money, and end up getting raped and diseased and killed by corrupt people who don't think of prostitutes as people.

Prostitution is dangerous as Hell, and it hurts lots of people in this day and age.... so I guess you could call that "immoral", but nobody really has the right to arrest someone for taking the risk, either prostitute or clients. I may not agree with it, but I understand most definitely why it exists, and the reasons it started are innocent enough. People want sex and sometimes they don't wanna go through the whole hassle and emotional gamble of courtship, and women need a quick way to make a few extra bucks... then bingo. Prostitution is born.

But back to the issue of true morality. I think Jesus said it the best (although I am not Christian):

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I think that's common sense, really. In a perfect world, a woman wouldn't need to prostitute herself and a man wouldn't need to bribe for sex. But this is not a perfect world, an may never be.... so for the most part, morality is still an individual's perogative. Although common sense and decency play heavily into what really makes someone moral, or what simply makes them brainwashed.

reply to post by dunwichwitch


Oh no, I don't use drugs. I was merely saying that I think drugs should be legalized because I don't think the government should crack down on what anyone wants to do. If, like you said, someone has become a heroine addict and is stealing and what not, they should be helped instead of being thrown in jail. There are many times where jail will just make it worse.

Hmm...what an interesting thread.

Well, the first question is how should we define morality.

Crap! I just read the wikipedia entry on "morality" and am having flashbacks to ethics class...such a simple yet complicated question at the same time...*head explodes*

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

What you described (pro-gay, anti-death penalty, insert your views) may be considered "ethics" more than morals.

If I have no exposure to nudist, I could just as well assume their all perverts/child molesters/satanist/whatever. If I have no exposure to drug users I could just assume their all severely addicted crackheads/heroine addicts. If all I know are those crazy conservatives/liberals/Peta/Cato/whatever I wouldn't want to be around the other party either.

If these are the only images I know, than their is a good chance when this debate comes up the person will not want themselves and especially their children exposed to this. I may not actually KNOW how gays/liberals/conservatives/nudist/whatever lives, but what I've heard is BAD!!! I didn't need that when I grew up! Something is wrong with economy/crime/my health it must be that group over their that I really don't understand...in my day we didn't have those...that's why America is falling apart...yada yada yada.


Let me add that your beliefs are not uncommon by any standard, it's just people who share them are either tired of being shouted down or are sparse in your geographic location. You are not alone.

Being immoral (in my opinion, obviously) is forcing something on someone who doesn't want it, or thinking of yourself instead of others.

Originally posted by SonOfChaos
Let me add that your beliefs are not uncommon by any standard, it's just people who share them are either tired of being shouted down or are sparse in your geographic location. You are not alone.

Oh you've hit this spot on with me. I currently live in Central Florida, a part of the state that is hugely populated with old people who like to tell me and my few friends that we are wrong.

Anyway, back to morality. I like the rest of your post because it does offer up a lot of perspective as to why some of this does come about. But doesn't this misunderstanding, that leads to judging, further separate and tear us apart?