Christian Answers Questions

reply to post by one_man24
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Thanks for the heads up! I will cope fine as your textglish is clear and concise and I'm having no problems hopefully correctly interpreting it. Please let me know ASAP if I take a wrong tact on anything you you post OK.

Although I disagree with you on evolution (RE:genetics etc) but I won't argue that here (another thread maybe?...there are heaps of old ones I'm sure somewhere on ATS/BTS...search function can be quite useful) and instead will completely agree with your statement and I quote"The belief that there is no God, no governing being, or anything in that realm. I cannot accept that as a reality, based on all I have read, seen, heard, experienced for myself.".
So yes, we both know and I'm sure I know how I "know" it and I "believe" I can communicate that ideological bootstrap to others [just ask me. ] and I'm just wondering, do you?, and can you?

Personal Disclosure: Take your time and enjoy yourself ok.

P.S. Oh and don't worry I have a myriad of them, questions that is!...

I have a new question:

Why dose Moses describe the creation in two different ways.

The first telling is not in order with Moses second telling about creation.

In the first telling:

The 4th day. God say! Let there flow with life in the water,Birds shall fly over the land. Then he created the Big animals in the water one of each sort. And they shall multiply.

This is not right of the book but much like it was told.

The 5th day: The life on land. God also created man in his own image. In his image he created male and female(Adam and Eve). At the same time this tells me.

Now this dose not fit in with Moses second telling at all. It also sound like the first telling has more authority then the second telling by Moses.

In Moses second telling he describes creation in a totally different order.

In the second telling Moses tells us that Adam is created before the other animals or life. And before the garden of Eden.

There is a rift and water poor's up and waters the earth. Because there is no grass or bushes.

Then Adam is created out of clay.

Then the garden of Eden is made somewhere in the east. But where is Adam when God is doing this!

Then Adam is put in the Garden of Eden. To look after it. He is told about the tree of Knowledge.

The animals are created and put before Adam in the Garden of Eden to give them names. Then God created Eve. Because Adam cant be alone.

Question:

How did Mose know what was North.South.East and west! To place where the garden of Eden was created. Wouldn't he just be able to say that it was created over there. Or somewhere in that direction form where he was standing. Or given this knowledge. Moses was never in the Garden. How would he know that the Garden of Eden was created somewhere east!

If you whent outside and you had never seen a compas. Would you be able to tell what was North.South.East or West!!!

Why wasn't the tree of knowledge mentioned in the first description of Gods creation!
I think that is quite odd. Because the first creation at the very beginning of the Bible describes it all the way up to when God takes a rest at the 7th day. And that tree sure is a important artifact to mention,but not mentioned. You wouldent forget that if you are to create a man with free will.

Now which one should we take seriously! Which telling is right!

I think it very important to know that so i can figure out what the tree of knowledge really is. The description of the tree is open if you ask me, after reading this. A fruit with the knowledge of life and death. Why would God put such a tree in the garden! If his creation was all good. I dont think it's a tree or a fruit at all. But something else.

Because Moses is far from accurate in his telling here.






[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by one_man24
death is a destruction of this mortal body, which was created immortal (by the way). it isn't punishment for what you did with your life,

im sorry but this statement alone is a logical contradiction.

one cannot be created immortal and then become mortal. immortality is an inability to die. god for example is immortal. even the bible makes a distinction between everlasting life (mortal with the right to live) and immortal (unable to die, ever)

reply to post by karl 12


Do you think that the abrahamic opinion of seeing mankind as inherently full of sin (or bad) and therefore 'needing to be saved' has had a detrimental and unhealthy effect on humanity as a whole?

This is a double sided question. Do I think the actual opinion has had an ill effect on humanity? No. Have people who this particular belief had an ill effect on humanity, of course. People tend to forget that Jesus does the saving, not us, in any way, especially not with violence or force. Regardless, it shouldn't change the sum of the commandments, which is love one another.


Also-do you think christianity has had a retarding and supressive effect on the progression of enlightened,objective free thinking and individual liberty down the ages and,if so,what possible motive could there be for this?

I think that many have done terrible things in God's name. I also think that early roman catholic church didn't represent God very well, not to His liking that is. Some christians tend to forget that God gave all the choice to reject Him. A person should always stand up for what they believe, but when it comes to forcing it down your neighbor's throat, that isn't brotherly love at all. As far as a motive, there have been many. Suppression of knowledge, make money of the masses, conquering land.. etc. Rest assured, God sees all. Hypocrites usually get what is coming to them.

Originally posted by one_man24
Miriam, All I can say to your answer to the lizard king (hail) is.....YIKES!!!
if that were true, then Christ's sacrifice would have been in vain. as unfair as it sounds, God forgives all for everything for Christ's sake. That is a basic prinicple of the christian faith, miriam. read John 3:16. also this

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

your presenting one side without presenting the other side. even jesus talks of people being ¨thrown outside in the darkness¨, or being thrown ¨into the lake of fire¨

obviously there are people who refuse to benefit from the ransom. yes it is offered to them but they refuse.

If a person truly believes, then they are forgiven. What constitutes true belief? That is another matter.

im sorry but it just isnt true. more than belief is needed.

james 2:[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

reply to post by miriam0566


I am not sure what you base your logic on. If you place it in the bible, then it is obvious that we were meant to be everlasting creatures. Otherwise, why would God tell adam... "if you eat it, you will surely die." if you believe in the bible, then I would point you to Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;


let scripture interpret scripture

reply to post by miriam0566


this is an old argument. if i have been unclear, i apologize. you are not saved by works. works are produced by a true faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;" (9) "not of works, that no man should glory."

there is nothing you can do to gain salvation

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. - Gal. 3:11-12


"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

1John 4:19
“We love because He first loved us”

Originally posted by one_man24
It does not matter if your sin is cursing, murder, adultery, or jaywalking. Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death.

yes, the wage is death, not eternal torment.

Eternal torment for 80 years of sin, or even 1 day of sin, is just because we are judged by God's standards, not our own. You must understand that God is not like us, He is perfect.

ok that makes no sense.

so god is perfect which means that 1 sin = eternal torment.

your trying to defend a man made doctrine by suggesting that god´s justice is beyond our comprehension even though we are made in god´s image. i guess that doesnt count when it comes to our sense of justice.

hellfire is not biblical. ¨hell¨is the grave. ¨lake of fire¨ is destruction. the ¨dead¨dont think (eccl 9:5,10)

And you don't have to suffer eternal torture for 80 yrs of sin, all you have to do is hear His words, and believe.

what your saying implies that satan, a person who has seen god (literally) and knows the truth, should be saved right? after all he ¨believes¨no?

The idea here is that my love for God and my hearing of His word leads me to want to change my life, and to show others this, not for my glory, but for His! God is good. Even Paul said he was the chief of sinners, and he also said " I do not do the good that I would do, but the bad that I would not do." We all sin, and deserve what comes with the territory. Praise God for his mercy!

yes god is merciful, and its not impossible to be saved. but its also not easy.

jesus said to struggle through the narrow door. to walk the narrow path. there is more to it than just belief.

Originally posted by one_man24
reply to post by miriam0566

 

I am not sure what you base your logic on. If you place it in the bible, then it is obvious that we were meant to be everlasting creatures. Otherwise, why would God tell adam... "if you eat it, you will surely die." if you believe in the bible, then I would point you to Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;


let scripture interpret scripture

your not listening to what im saying.

just because a person is ment to live forever doesnt not mean one is immortal.

immortality is being exempt from death. unable to die.

adam and eve were ment to live forever, but they were not immortal. the proof? they sinned and died.

Originally posted by one_man24
there is nothing you can do to gain salvation

that does not mean we can sit back and do nothing.

i explain this all here.

www.belowtopsecret.com...

reply to post by miriam0566


1 peter 3:19-20
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

reply to post by miriam0566


God explains it all here: BIBLE

reply to post by miriam0566


could they have died if they had not eaten the fruit? proof, please.


as for the idea that they were created to be immortal, God clearly stated do not eat of the tree, for the day you do, you will surely die.

and the serpent told eve the first lie in the bible, which was "eat the fruit, you will not die"

and futhermore, God closed the garden so that they could not eat from the tree of everlating life, and be stuck in their sins forever, a tree that they were not forbidden from eating from previously. maybe they had to eat from that tree regularly in order to live forever.

read genesis chapters 2 and 3

reply to post by miriam0566


Good talking with you, gotta go drop packages off at ups store. I will return tomorrow morning, or in a few hours if I can get back to a comp. I don't have one at home, sorry! Have a good night.

reply to post by one_man24


How do you really know that the tree of knowledge really was a tree. Moses is really not that accurate at all in the way he describes this part of the creations. The creation is described in two totally different ways by Moses him self. I have a question about it just some posts UP.

If we really dont know what the tree of knowledge is.How can we argue any facts.

Originally posted by one_man24
1 peter 3:19-20
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

exactly, noah did more than just believe.

your quoting scriptures that show just one aspect of salvation, but your ignoreing the others.

john 17:[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

matt 19:[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

so which is it?

simply believing in god?

knowing god?

following his commandments?

which scripture outlines salvation?

the answer is all of them. belief is not enough.

Originally posted by one_man24
could they have died if they had not eaten the fruit? proof, please.

ok third time..

im not disagreeing with on this particular point.

if adam and eve did not eat the fruit, they would still be alive today and the rest of eternity.

okay?

however, just because one is designed to live forever, doesnt not make one immortal.

if adam and eve were immortal, it would not have mattered if they sinned or not, they would still be alive. god would be unable to sentence them to death because they would be exempt.

everlasting life ≠ immortality.

what adam and eve had was everlasting life. it was conditional. if they sinned, then god would cut them off.

I am looking forward to the reply to your question

"Why dose Moses describe the creation in two different ways"

In my opinion I do not think the accounts are exclusive of each other.
But it is a re-ocuring theme in the early accounts to repeat a story to detail different aspects of that story.
I cannot relay this idea as eloguently as several others I have read on this site (that I am obviously very new to) are able to. And I hope your question doesn't go un-answered.

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


I also found an other odd thing. My Bibles description of creation dont fallow the order explained on this page. Creation according to Genesis en.wikipedia.org...

In my Bible man is created the 5th day.In wiki man is created on the 6th day. My Bible tells me nothing about the 6th day other then that God observes everything as good. It goes on to say that on the 7th day God rested.

This is what my Bible tells me from the beginning: It's read from the old testament. And ill translate it from Norwegian to English.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was deserted and empty. And the darkness was over the sea. Then Gods spirit went over the sea. And God say!! Let there be light. And there was light. God sees that the light is good. And he separated light from darkness.
He called the light for day,and darkness he called night. And it became night,and it was morning the first day.

From wiki en.wikipedia.org...: Day 1: God creates light. Here is the first divine command, "Let there be light."
God then divides the light from the darkness, and calls the light "Day" and the darkness "Night."

It is wrong of wiki to call this for day one. Because God hadn't created day or night yet. He is creating it.
It should just say that Gods first divine command was: Let there be light.

Are your bibles the same as mine! Do you people read the same thing as i do!

My Bible day 1. God divides the water. My interpretation God makes the sea salty and God makes fresh water. The fresh water is placed in the sky as clouds. And it was morning the second day.

How can anyone make any correct assumptions with all this inaccuracy every where in our studies :bnghd:

A small thing can make a big difference.

In the first description Moses makes. God rest the 7th day and all is good. No... tree of knowledge is ever mentioned! because everything God created was good. He is very specific on that. But this tree of knowledge is not all good.
This tree of knowledge is a very peculiar creation it is different from any other tree. It is a very important creation. Why is it not mentioned. Why is it just mentioned later on by Moses.

In the first description of Moses. The garden of Eden is not mentioned. Why is that!
The Garden of Eden has a very special place in the whole story in Gods creation. It is based on the rest of what the Bible is built on. So what is the garden of Eden if not the whole earth!
That would fit with the first telling of Moses. And it contradicts the second telling of Moses. The only thing that gives Eden a location is Adam and Eve.
Shouldn't it be told that earth is the Eden and that Adam and Eve was made out of earth and placed somewhere on earth!
If this is the fact. The tree of knowledge probably wouldent be a tree at all. Because in the beginning God created all the trees and plants so they can bear seeds. And God observed it and say it is all Good. The tree of knowledge is not a good tree or seed. And on the 7th day God rested because everything was good. This dosent make sense at all.

This is also why i think that Moses two descriptions of Gods creation dont add up. There is something that is not quite right between them.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


reply to post by spy66


spy 66, good question.

you actually answered some of it yourself. genesis chapter deals with creation as a whole, and gensis chapter two focuses more one God's crowning achievement, man and woman. if you will notice, when it talks about plants in chapter 2 it says "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground." notice it doesn't mention jungles, forests, prairie, or any such thing. it simply refers to plants and herbs of the field, in my opinion, food. then you have God watering the field and bringing forth man in the next few verses
"But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. "

after this, God creates the Garden, obviously AFTER the seventh day if you read the whole of chapter 2, implying that although God had created the earth and all things in it, he had yet to create the place that he intended man to dwell. next God grows tree in the garden, and forms rivers to water the garden
"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

next you have the recreation of certain animals, I'll explain in a sec
"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."
this is just an idea, but it says that God formed every beast of the field and fowl of the air, notice the field part. earlier, when God mentioned field he seemed to mean food to be cultivated. it is possible that God was recreating the animals that adam would use for work, and later for food, also there is the thought that he wanted adam to witness the beauty of creation to give him special appreciation for what God was going to give him next, his wife.

This is just an idea, but either way, genesis 2 definitely focuses more on man and his home, the garden, rather than creation of all the earth