Christian Answers Questions

Originally posted by spy66
I have a new question for you.

If people feel guilt for the wrong doings they have done. Why do we see it fit to punish them even more!

Isn't feeling guilt after you have done something wrong or unjust. A form for punishment or enlightenment. Isn't it more right to just tell them hove to do it right! Instead of applying more suffering to prove a point.

Now this don't apply to the once who dont regret. They might have to experience a consequence of their actions.

there is a difference between discipline and punishment.

discipline has the objective of teaching. you dont want your child to touch the stove, there are several ways you can teach him. first, you tell him not to touch the stove. to some this is enough, but maybe the child resists so you explain what will happen when he touches it, maybe thats enough. if he persists, you may have to let him learn the ¨hard way.¨ (last resort). in the end, this has the objective of teaching the child what is good for him.

punishment is different. punishment is a consequence from an action whether you learn from the experience or not. if you have a contract with someone, and you break that contract, likely there will be consequences. the person issuing that consequence is not going to care if you learn a lesson or not.

everyone thinks that we are ¨god´s children¨ and they lump everything we face in the ¨discipline¨ category but its not always that case.

some are trying to serve god and put forth an honest effort, whole heartedly believing that god knows what is best for them. to them serving god is more than surviving. they honestly think its a better way to live. god is extremely merciful to this group.

others do not. they dont want others telling them how to live their life. the only time they may reconsider this philosophy is when their existence is threaten. god is not looking for people like this. they want to live independently and they have their wish. unfortunately, just like a fan cannot continue to spin and will eventually stop when its plug is pulled from the wall, so humans eventually die when they disconnect from god. (matt 4:4)

death is not a disciplinary action. there is nothing to learn from it. you cant reflect on your life after you are dead because, your dead. accurate knowledge of god is something you obtain while you are alive. you learn BEFORE the final consequences of your decisions.

the throwing of those into the lake of fire is not discipline. they will not be around to think about it.

I think this is a very important question to know the answer to. Because we all sin. Either by will or just by having a thought.

while thought and desire leads to sin, it is not a sin itself (james 1:14,15)

We can only regret our doings. Not undo them. By regret we might not do the same thing again.

We cant control our sinful thoughts,they just appear out of nowhere. We cant even stop them from happening again. But we can regret having them lol.

as i said before in my pm, we are imperfect. god knows this so he is not going to expect us to do more then we can accomplish. so we do our best

but scriptures pertaining to the lake of fire are not talking about those who are trying their best. its referring to people who knowing make a stand against god.

its like renting an apartment. the tenet has to abide by the rules of the landlord. if he doesnt, he cant rent the house, or if he has already, he´ll be evicted. makes sense right?

the situation is similar with god. he is lord over all. you dont agree with the terms of the contract, then you are not allowed to ¨rent¨ this life. problem is, there is no where else to go.

Originally posted by one_man24
reply to post by miriam0566

 

part A: good question. let me first point out that in my answer to blueracer I stated that no one knows EXACTLY what happens the moment you die. Are you immediately judged? Do we all wake up at the second coming? Do we "sleep" in death until the time of judgement? There are certainly cases for all three in the bible, but who can say which is correct? Only God knows. Perhaps a mix of all three? Now that being said, there are two types of death we are dealing with here. One is physical death of your material body, and the other is a spiritual death of your soul. To deal with the first, we are all certainly going to die one day. That is the direct consequences of Adam's sin, a curse upon the whole human race, as well as us being born into it. Our sinful, imperfect bodies are mortal, and return to the dust from which we came, only to rise again on that last day.
The second death is much more serious, and required a blood sacrifice from God in order to pay our debt. We deserve both deaths, whether we know it or not, but those who hear God's word and listen will only receive the first.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more." Job 14:12.

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away."
2 Peter 3:10.

These verses seem to point to the fact that all will sleep until the last day when God pronounces each individual's fate. The fact that the dead know nothing doesn't change the fact that the wages of sin is death, whether it be physical or spiritual, and the fact that we all will face His judgement one day.

ok.. but the ¨wages of sin is death¨

if you die, why would you receive judgement after? why would you need judgement after? it doesnt make sense does it.

hellfire (eternal torment) doesnt fit into that either does it? why would you suffer for all eternity if you already paid for your sin with your death?

Originally posted by one_man24
reply to post by miriam0566

 

part B: A small sin 80 yrs sure doesn't seem like much to us, but you have to remember that God is perfect, and doesn't abide any sin.

okay... but that doesnt answer my question.

how does 80 years of sin = eternity of torturous torment?

how is it just?

Originally posted by miriam0566
do you really think that a finite amount of sin (80 years or so) is really deserving of an infinite amount of punishment?

Your sins can be washed away and forgiven with very little effort on your part. Talk about a gift...just accept Jesus salvation...that's it, nothing more.

If a person knows that murdering someone can result in his imprisonment for life and that person murders anyway, doesn't (s)he send himself to the cell?


Blessings

Originally posted by kinglizard
Your sins can be washed away and forgiven with very little effort on your part. Talk about a gift...just accept Jesus salvation...that's it, nothing more.

so i can commit genocide and after all i have to do is accept jesus?

Yeah that's a really ugly scenario, one that is difficult to accept but I don't know the mans heart...God does. So God will need to be the judge not man.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yeah that's a really ugly scenario, one that is difficult to accept but I don't know the mans heart...God does. So God will need to be the judge not man.

so what your saying is that it not really as simple as just accepting jesus´sacrifice? that theres more to it?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yeah that's a really ugly scenario, one that is difficult to accept but I don't know the mans heart...God does. So God will need to be the judge not man.

so what your saying is that it not really as simple as just accepting Jesus´sacrifice? that there's more to it?

I believe that the way to God is through Jesus. But to get to Jesus you have to do certain things like Lover others like you love your self.

Just accepting that Jesus died so that we have a chance to a new life wont hold. You have to care to.

But now comes a new question. Jesus sacrificed him self for us. Did he also bring forth a new law by doing that. Like we should sacrifice our selves for others!

Or am i wrong again

reply to post by miriam0566


I have a certain level of faith in God and that the bible is his word.

You question is very difficult for me. I'm human with human emotions but with faith in the word. For me to forgive a man that that killed millions would be very difficult even though I am told to do so. I am however, just a man.

In some of your arguments in this thread you say 80 years of sin on earth, no matter the sin, was is in no way deserving of hell. Now you argue it's unfair that a man should not go to hell for his sins. That is quite a difficult position.

I believe we have Gods word. You can find salvation by accepting Jesus. God knows the heart so you can't simply spit out "I accept you" without truly meaning it and feeling it in your heart.

Again it's Gods place to judge not mans.

EDIT: maybe I was a bit simplistic in the way I described how to find salvation. Here is a more in depth look.

......On the contrary, salvation is an appeal to God for cleansing from sin, forgiveness, and repentance so that we might not sin. This appeal is a heartfelt confession of our hopelessness before God and an acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. It is simultaneous with sincere repentance which is a turning from sin, not to it.......

......Furthermore, when we receive Christ, we are regenerated; we are changed; we are born again. This means that there is something different about us. Something has happened to us. This is why Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," (John 3:3). To be born again means that something new has happened in us. This "something" is the change in us that is the result of regeneration. "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17). The old things were the sinful passions and desires. Our enslavement to them is broken when we are born again. Furthermore, once we are born again, we are no longer our own and we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment," (John 16:8).......

www.carm.org...

[edit on 1/28/2009 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
You question is very difficult for me. I'm human with human emotions but with faith in the word. For me to forgive a man that that killed millions would be very difficult even though I am told to do so. I am however, just a man.

In some of your arguments in this thread you say 80 years of sin on earth, no matter the sin, was is in no way deserving of hell. Now you argue it's unfair that a man should not go to hell for his sins. That is quite a difficult position.

with all due respect, is it possible that its difficult because its a contradiction?

yes, god wants all to be saved.

but... god is also just.

god´s justice would not allow certain people to be saved. no matter how much they ¨believe¨.

i go into it with alot of detail here.

www.belowtopsecret.com...

I was thinking it was difficult because I am human and it's difficult not to apply human emotion and reasoning to Gods word.

I'll take a look at your link.

reply to post by spy66


I agree with don't hate the sinner, hate the sin. I hate no man. And as far as the child, how can you truly judge remorse? I have a brother than fakes remorse for a living, and so escapes punishment. I acknowledge this though, it is difficult to be the judge, and I would never want to be the person responsible for punishing others, but someone has to do it. The difficult part is deciding how severe the punishment is. In the case of the 5 year old, who probably told a lie, or stole a cookie before supper, is not so severe and doesn't really deserve anything more than timeout or a talking to. But could you see yourself waving your finger under the nose of a thief or a murderer? it is not the same thing. also, anyone who punishes a child because of the way the child made them feel doesn't get it. you rebuke/punish to correct a child's impromptu behavior and make them a better person, not because they made you angry.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I believe the bible is true because I believe in the God of the scriptures with all my heart, and it is His word to our people, one of two testaments to His being, the other is His Son that He sent to die to redeem us.

Also, you cannot truly have a firm faith if you don't accept the bible as truth. If one thing could be false, or added, the whole thing could be untrue. This would cause problems with your faith, of course. Someone may view this as close minded, or being a sheeple (that seems to be a favored word here on ATS/BTS), but it's no more close minded than some of you who absolutely refute God, of any fashion or form. If you sit back, and really contemplate everything, think about life, space, our existence, right, wrong, morals, reason, law, love, and just the fact that we are here, intact, provided for, thriving- how could you really believe that this is all random chance? (sorry, got off topic)

reply to post by miriam0566


it is not only speaking of physical death of the body, which believe me, you and I are defintely guaranteed that, but also the spiritual death. a man is not only body, that is why God says a man cannot live on bread alone. of course bread can sustain the body, but it cannot sustain the soul. death is not a punishment for a life of unbelief, death is a destruction of this mortal body, which was created immortal (by the way). it isn't punishment for what you did with your life, it is the consequences of adam eating the fruit, and God warned him. if you eat of this, you will surely die. and we do. God sent his Son so we wouldn't have to die the second death, and be cut off from Him for all eternity. He restored our relationship, and cleansed us. Now we don't have to be afraid of death, our punishment for the fall, because it is a release from a life fraught with pain and sin. O death, where is thy sting?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by kinglizard
You question is very difficult for me. I'm human with human emotions but with faith in the word. For me to forgive a man that that killed millions would be very difficult even though I am told to do so. I am however, just a man.

In some of your arguments in this thread you say 80 years of sin on earth, no matter the sin, was is in no way deserving of hell. Now you argue it's unfair that a man should not go to hell for his sins. That is quite a difficult position.

with all due respect, is it possible that its difficult because its a contradiction?

yes, god wants all to be saved.

but... god is also just.

god´s justice would not allow certain people to be saved. no matter how much they ¨believe¨.

i go into it with alot of detail here.

Miriam, All I can say to your answer to the lizard king (hail) is.....YIKES!!!
if that were true, then Christ's sacrifice would have been in vain. as unfair as it sounds, God forgives all for everything for Christ's sake. That is a basic prinicple of the christian faith, miriam. read John 3:16. also this

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If a person truly believes, then they are forgiven. What constitutes true belief? That is another matter.

reply to post by miriam0566


to clarify, because it looked confusing because I don't know how to quote lol, this was my part of the last post:

Miriam, All I can say to your answer to the lizard king (hail) is.....YIKES!!!
if that were true, then Christ's sacrifice would have been in vain. as unfair as it sounds, God forgives all for everything for Christ's sake. That is a basic prinicple of the christian faith, miriam. read John 3:16. also this

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If a person truly believes, then they are forgiven. What constitutes true belief? That is another matter.

reply to post by miriam0566


for all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

Not only is God holy, but as you stated earlier, He is just. He cannot, will not, does not, abide sin of any kind. We are wholly, completely, totally sinful. Therefore God cannot abide us. He was left with a problem. His creation, that has His spirit breathed into it, is doomed to die and suffer punishment for being unclean, not holy. So He made the ultimate sacrifice to save us from our sin. God became man, the only perfect man, and died a death that He did not deserve. It does not matter if your sin is cursing, murder, adultery, or jaywalking. Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death. We are made holy through Christ's death. Eternal torment for 80 years of sin, or even 1 day of sin, is just because we are judged by God's standards, not our own. You must understand that God is not like us, He is perfect. And you don't have to suffer eternal torture for 80 yrs of sin, all you have to do is hear His words, and believe. Belief brings about change. For instance, I don't do drugs anymore, commit adultery, steal (never did), or willingly disobey God. Not because it gets me somewhere, but because I hear His words, and I love His ways. I truly love God for what He did for me, and for you. And guess what? I still slip up. I have a problem cursing, and sometimes I lose my temper and say things I don't mean. Sometimes I have a hard time not looking at women, let's face it.. God made you all so beautiful! The idea here is that my love for God and my hearing of His word leads me to want to change my life, and to show others this, not for my glory, but for His! God is good. Even Paul said he was the chief of sinners, and he also said " I do not do the good that I would do, but the bad that I would not do." We all sin, and deserve what comes with the territory. Praise God for his mercy!

reply to post by one_man24
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Thank for the reply to my sorta off-topic question. I'm much obliged to you.

1stly You state and I quote "Also, you cannot truly have a firm faith if you don't accept the bible as truth."...Thanks for disclosing that this is the box [pigeonhole="you cannot truly have a firm faith"] that you place those people who you perceive as, and again I quote you "don't accept the bible as truth."...Your upfront transparency is again much appreciated and as I don't accept the bible as truth i.e. Canonical [entirely the Word of YHVH] please feel free to test any faiths [disclosed of mine] value of "firmness"!

2ndly You state and I quote "If one thing could be false, or added, the whole thing could be untrue. This would cause problems with your faith, of course."...And I fully agree with you and the 2nd thread of mine that I informed you of in an earlier post to this thread goes directly to this point and so I encourage you to have a look!

Finally you state and I quote "Someone may view this as close minded, or being a sheeple (that seems to be a favored word here on ATS/BTS), but it's no more close minded than some of you who absolutely refute God, of any fashion or form. If you sit back, and really contemplate everything, think about life, space, our existence, right, wrong, morals, reason, law, love, and just the fact that we are here, intact, provided for, thriving- how could you really believe that this is all random chance? (sorry, got off topic)"....I personally don't believe it is closed minded, but I also feel that you have yet to vet the bible [which ever version you ascribe to] to the Nth degree and I again refer you to that 2nd thread I mentioned. Also I don't refute God, just YHVH [I believe in Achlys], and I would love to discuss your understanding of what the parameters for random chance are from your POV.

Personal Disclosure: Would love to read your definition of the fashion or form of your God. Please feel free to u2u me on any topic at all.

Oneman.
Do you think that the abrahamic opinion of seeing mankind as inherently full of sin (or bad) and therefore 'needing to be saved' has had a detrimental and unhealthy effect on humanity as a whole?

As Fred says:

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad".
Friedrich Nietzsche

Also-do you think christianity has had a retarding and supressive effect on the progression of enlightened,objective free thinking and individual liberty down the ages and,if so,what possible motive could there be for this?

Other quotes:

"There is in every village a torch-the teacher:and an extinguisher-the clergyman"
Victor Hugo

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
Thomas Jefferson

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; (b) the cruel subjection of women;(c)the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness." Steve Allen

Regards

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I must tell you up front, I am not as good with words as you are, so cope with me here.

I may have questioned my faith a bit more than you think. I was raised in the church, and departed in my teens, only to return in my twenties. I believe in the God of the bible, and I believe it is divinely inspired.

As far as random chance, I don't believe in evolution, but that is a dead horse. To better define random chance, I am pointing to atheistic type beliefs. The belief that there is no God, no governing being, or anything in that realm. I cannot accept that as a reality, based on all I have read, seen, heard, experienced for myself. The bible says that nature itself should tell you that there is a God, in psalm 19, and psalm 104. also in Romans, not sure where. I wouldn't berate someone for their thoughts, but personally, I don't get it. Just makes more sense, ya know?

I will respond more, but I am going on my lunch break with my wife.

BTW, I do better at answering questions than asking, so don't be afraid to initiate the topic.