If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue.

The whole idea of banning or trying to spread religion is useless.
Those of you that proclaim to be too smart and logical for God try spending less time talking about something you don't believe in. Nothing entertains a religious person more than an is there a God conversation. you said it. God don't exist. Then stop talking about nothing.

Those that believe..Quit trying to sway the masses to your point of view. You have nothing to gain but the pride in creating a new religious person in the best case scenario for you. But you will anger much more than you can ever create and all that tension makes people make threads in forums like religion is bad and needs destroyed so others can say we need ore of it.

Those that think churches are full of hypocrites...Where would you want these people? If we all were perfect then there would be no need for the church. Those that believe but have wandered need to where they can learn. It works for ignorant people (schools) so the spiritually deprived can learn in a church.

I find it more than a little entertaining that some people that do not believe that there needs to be a movement of abolition of religion can say that while I'm sure if I was to say...We need to get rid the freedom of speech think that is so bad. You are more than willing to take away peoples freedom to assemble and to worship what they believe is God. Arn't we just a bunch of little Hitlers.
Ban it all! As long as you don't take away anything I find important!!

Before we get out our pitchforks and torches I think we as people need to look at more than our selfish selves. Maybe someone wants to talk to God. and if you don't believe he/she can then why does that bother you? Are we sad or angry that when we were at that really low point in our lives and we asked God to help us God didn't answer? Maybe you didn't do it right. Or maybe you are right and God is not there. either way No one person or group has a right to try and force their will on the rest. Look in your heart. Look in the mirror. You know that it is wrong. All sides of this argument needs to stop it. Try taking a walk or watching a little TV. It's not a big deal that we are all different. I don't like Tampon ads on TV but I am not trying to say they need stopped

When all the dust settles it shouldn't matter if we all don't believe the same. It's been like that as long as there have been people. Countries have began trying to create a place where you might not get killed for thinking as you do.

Those with the faith of the mustard seed can have their faith. and if it makes you happy then fantastic! Faith is a personal thing...Keep it that way. If you don't believe then stop fighting about what don't exist. It just makes you look like you are not really sure. and you need talked into your viewpoint. Or even more interesting is the atheist that hits true rock bottom..Is fearing for his life...and prays that something saves them.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
The church was never meant to be what it is today. If Christ were walking on Earth right now, I'm sure there would be many church doors closing.

Very well said Freenrgy... very well put. I couldn't agree more. When I was a Catholic I remember the priest getting a new car every year or two. Do you think it was a cheap one? Nope...top of the line. I kept thinking... why doesn't he buy a cheap one and use that money for the poor?
As I said before our religions need to be revamped and taken back to the basics of treating everyone like we are brothers (because we are!) and loving everyone. Once we get that down we can start working on the rest.

reply to post by Alienmojo


Checkout some of the old school churches in the south. It's a little different that the more trendy brands of theology. Small buildings, people dressed like people and not a fashion show. They tend to spend more on the book that the house around it.

I'm not a church going person but I do sometimes like to stop in one of these places from time to time. It's pretty cool to see it all stripped down to the word rather than what people see and want to be seen

reply to post by Alienmojo


I want to share something with you.

I have come to the conclusion that the bible is too good to be true in a sense. your born into this world, then you read a bible that you are assured by others is the true word of god, do you really think it is that easy?

I think the higher being ( god if you will ) want's us to " feel " our way home. want's us to find our way back home by our own free will. I don't think the bible can assure free will by following it, just the fact you have to believe in jesus to have eternal life is not free will.

I don't think the way " home " is through any one book, since I have chosen to find the path by my own free will, I think I will have help on the way, but not from a church, not so much through a book either, but from within. Reading books and listening to other's point of view can help to make sense of it all, but contain no answers in themselves.

Hopefully that made sense.

peace

Originally posted by DrumJunkie
The whole idea of banning or trying to spread religion is useless.
..Quit trying to sway the masses to your point of view. You have nothing to gain but the pride in creating a new religious person in the best case scenario for you.

I find it more than a little entertaining that some people that do not believe that there needs to be a movement of abolition of religion can say that while I'm sure if I was to say...We need to get rid the freedom of speech think that is so bad. You are more than willing to take away peoples freedom to assemble and to worship what they believe is God. Arn't we just a bunch of little Hitlers.

Ban it all! As long as you don't take away anything I find important!!

Before we get out our pitchforks and torches I think we as people need to look at more than our selfish selves.
When all the dust settles it shouldn't matter if we all don't believe the same. It's been like that as long as there have been people. Countries have began trying to create a place where you might not get killed for thinking as you do.

Those with the faith of the mustard seed can have their faith. and if it makes you happy then fantastic! Faith is a personal thing...Keep it that way. If you don't believe then stop fighting about what don't exist. It just makes you look like you are not really sure. and you need talked into your viewpoint. Or even more interesting is the atheist that hits true rock bottom..Is fearing for his life...and prays that something saves them.

Hey Drum...wow, very cool. I liked what you had to say. I've been saying all along we need to stop shoving Christ down people's throat and start living a Christ-like life. Do that and it will affect people more than any sermon ever could!
I'm not advocating getting rid of religion, but I do feel it needs to be changed. Thanks for thoughts, take care.

Originally posted by pureevil81
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

I want to share something with you.

I have come to the conclusion that the bible is too good to be true in a sense. your born into this world, then you read a bible that you are assured by others is the true word of god, do you really think it is that easy?

I think the higher being ( god if you will ) want's us to " feel " our way home. want's us to find our way back home by our own free will. I don't think the bible can assure free will by following it, just the fact you have to believe in jesus to have eternal life is not free will.

I don't think the way " home " is through any one book, since I have chosen to find the path by my own free will, I think I will have help on the way, but not from a church, not so much through a book either, but from within. Reading books and listening to other's point of view can help to make sense of it all, but contain no answers in themselves.

Hopefully that made sense.

peace

Hey Pure... I had to laugh when I read your post. Even as a Christian I have my doubts too..its normal, we are human. I said the exact same thing to my best friend.."It's too good to be true." At the time I was referring to life after death rather than the Bible though. Same difference I guess. Personally we have to come to our own conclusions on such thing, but one thing that made me feel better was this. Would you rather spend your life not believing in God and having nothing to hope for OR believe in God and have something to hope for? I want God to exist and if He doesn't then our whole lives are meaningless and pointless.
So is the Bible the actual word of God? I mean, man chose which books to include in it..right? So I say yes, it is. Why? Because I hope it to be. I hope that there is a God out there that can make sure the correct books are included and that they are His word. I don't know the answer Pure... all I know is that I hope and pray that God and His word are true... if they aren't... what is life worth living for? Take care brother.

reply to post by Alienmojo


Do you ever have doubts about what you believe?
PS: putting one's faith in the bible is fornication.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Would you rather spend your life not believing in God and having nothing to hope for OR believe in God and have something to hope for?

This is religious dogma, I have heard this from so many people that attend church......it's so black and white.

I prefer to search for the truth, there is some truth to alot of things, absolute truth in nothing. I believe there is a higher power, but I also think there is much more to it that what is spoon fed to us.


[edit on 24-12-2008 by pureevil81]

Originally posted by Muundoggie
reply to post by tigermoff

 

Well said.
Religion can and is corrupted, spirituality can not be corrupted.

Exactly. Spirituality is personal. And being personal the only one you can corrupt/control is yourself.

Religion is for sheeple.

Originally posted by tigermoff

Originally posted by Muundoggie
reply to post by tigermoff

 

Well said.
Religion can and is corrupted, spirituality can not be corrupted.

Exactly. Spirituality is personal. And being personal the only one you can corrupt/control is yourself.

Religion is for sheeple.

I agree. But how does a person know if the spirit that makes him spiritual is not a delusion?

There are legions upon legions of false spirits.

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

Do you ever have doubts about what you believe?
PS: putting one's faith in the bible is fornication.

Oh yes, I have my days. Its harder for me because I'm a very scientific person who requires proof in EVERYTHING before I believe. I didn't believe we were getting that refund from Bush until I had it in my hand. I have things that I use to give my faith a boost. The fact that Jesus did exist. That Paul existed and was originally a persecuter of Christians and for him to turn his life around to the point of dying for his faith... that proves to me that something ultra-mystical happened to him. Those are two of the things that I think of.
Is your PS a joke? I'm not sure what you are saying there.

I'm an agnostic. From self-realization, not from childhood indoctrination (which was religious). I've read about religion throughout history and I feel its been much more of a blight and an agent of class-based societal control than a positive influence on the world. I could always be mistaken, but then so could those who hold religious beliefs.

I feel strongly that more research should be done into near death experiences and past-life memories. I think that if there is any truth to spirituality, those fields of study will provide more that I would need to feel spiritual. I also feel that science in its current state is as strictly dogmatic as organized religions with its unshaken disbelief in just about anything but currently observable or measurable phenomena.

My own agnostic beliefs have led me away from thinking there is any type of universal morality that can be found in an old book. Life is amoral, but I don't think that negates the possibility of some spiritual truth. If there is some purpose to life, its not about being good or bad and facing some reward or punishment at the end, its something else which I do not feel any organized religion has got right yet. Some may be close, but I think more real study into NDEs and past life memories could provide more clarity.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Frith]

I prefer to search for the truth, there is some truth to alot of things, absolute truth in nothing. I believe there is a higher power, but I also think there is much more to it that what is spoon fed to us.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by pureevil81]

Oh most definately I agree with you that there is so much more to it. I'm sure we'll find out when we get there. I'm just doing the best I can with the cards that I have. I look for the truth as well, that's why I've read so much on the existence of Christ and others from non-religious sources. Its a long road and I'm doing the best I can brother... that's why I like talking to everyone here, it gives me more ideas and such.

It's one thing to be spiritually enlightened, and quite another to be religiously insane. If your god demands you kill for him, or hate other people for him, or just lie for him ... maybe your god is nuts, and certainly not worthy of respect. Shovel all the religious crap at me that you want but don't expect me to partake of its stinking muck.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

Do you ever have doubts about what you believe?
PS: putting one's faith in the bible is fornication.

Oh yes, I have my days. Its harder for me because I'm a very scientific person who requires proof in EVERYTHING before I believe. I didn't believe we were getting that refund from Bush until I had it in my hand. I have things that I use to give my faith a boost. The fact that Jesus did exist. That Paul existed and was originally a persecuter of Christians and for him to turn his life around to the point of dying for his faith... that proves to me that something ultra-mystical happened to him. Those are two of the things that I think of.
Is your PS a joke? I'm not sure what you are saying there.

I was a bit concerned that you put your faith and hope in scriptures. This can be a form of idol worship. An example is the King James only cults.

Fornication is not sex outside of marriage. Idol worship is a form of fornication.

I also wanted to find out if you have doubts. You say you do. So now I ask if you think it is possible to have all doubts erased from your mind forever?

I also want to tell you I answered your question on page 6.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

Religion is not the evil that destroys mankind as its made out to be so often on ATS.

The biggest mass murders every to have taken place on this planet were by atheists - i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung - all killed countless millions and all avid atheists who felt mankind had no place for religion.

These people showed that if you remove the values that religion tries to bring then you also remove the many moral boundaries that religion brings with it.

True religion is about loving god - how do you show your love for god - by showing your love for his creation - all his people no matter what their colour or creed.

True their have been mistakes made in the name of religion - but that was by people who were using religion as an excuse to carry out their persecutions of others - who truly did not get the message that god purveyed.

Even today - many of the muslim fanatics are disillusioned young men and women who are trapped in a dictorial country with no chance of a job or decent education - naturally they are attracted by the enticement of a death which brings an eternity spent with a thousand virgins and covered in riches - this is not religions fault - its a political fault caused by the dsyfunction in the nations of the middle east. This dysfunction breeds usurpers who will use religion to attract people to their cause - is that religions fault?

Of course not - no more then Nazism is the fault of vegetarianism(Hitler was a veggie) or mass murder committed in the name of communism is the fault of Karl Marx and the moral of the social agenda he was advocating.

People wanting to destory religion believing it will save manking better also purify humanity of all other doctrines which no matter how well meaning the intention of those doctrines can be usurped by people.

Another example - the murder of people by the extreme animals rights factions - does this mean the advocation of animal rights is wrong - no - again people are at fault and always will be until they find the true meaning of the love of fellow man contained in religions message.

Thats my two cents anyways.

God bless and Happy Xmas to all.

Instead of copying some other dudes thread and making it about the opposite, couldnt you have just argued your point on his thread? Seems kinda dumb you started this one. Just my opinion.

Hi folks,
I believe in the divine, creative force, God, zero point/point of creation, whatever term is used. I've followed a few religions (you dunno what a dish is like till you taste it), although i'm not religious now. I don't need anyone to tell me how to experience the divine. Having said that, i'm cool with all religions. Aside from the idiots (that are in every part/organisation anyhow), religion does give some the idea of something that is greater than themselves. It's this expereince/concept, that the world doesn't revolve around individuals, but that we are a collective whole, that gives hope. This is where religion is useful, imo.

It inacurate in a sense to say religion has caused most wars, etc. It may seem like that, sure. However, some people have 'hijacked' what religion is about, and turned it into a quasi-political/racial entity. People of influence, this is.

Mankind will, and does, fight over everything. Religion, politics, race, football, etc. Religion is not to blame for the way mankind is.

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned about Allah, and comparing him to Christianity. Allah is only the arabic name for God. Much like dieu in French. It is not a different God. Islam recoqnises Judaism & Christianity. The folks within their scriptures, are people of the Qu'ran also. Idiots abound that say they do things in the name of Islam, sure. These folks are misguided.

Back on topic. Is religion needed? If we had no religion, it would not stop anything. Was the last two world wars over religion? No. It's easy to point the finger, we all do it i guess. If religion makes a person realise there is something greater than themselves, it is worthwhile for some.

I see the point, i really do, when folks say spirituality is what is needed. I'm spiritual myself, not religious. Some folks like a set framework though. Perhaps as time goes on, they'll feel they won't need it. People make/change their views at their own pace. And within spirituality, no-one is right, and no-one is wrong.

we should realise, idiots in government, and powerful positions, have abused and hijacked, and politicized, a common message..

To realise there is something greater than our individual self, and to be kind to everyone.

Take care
Wayne

[edit on 24-12-2008 by reiki]

well I guess I'll reply to this one since I replied to the others

mankind isn't going to survive plain in simple. now If we are talking about getting along......then when it comes to things like deities, external powers from aliens, mystic superstitions, then its all a matter of what you believe isn't it?

There is no point in trying to outlaw or abolish these beliefs. If you don't agree with them, then stay out of them, unless they are affecting you. If they are affecting you, then reason with them. If you can't reason with them, then deal with them. If you can't deal with them, you might want to just accept them for what they are. you don't have to agree with them, but you should accept the fact that those kind of beliefs are still awaiting to be proven, you can't entirely disprove them, not now, not ever, accept that and leave them be if you've tried everything.

The equation is constantly balanced. A light and its shadow. Let the fools understand. Allow your eye to see that the micro intelligence merges seamlessly into the macro consciousness. We are star dust reality gods. When we sever our silver cord by the variables we illicit, the dream will turn into another vison, clearer than the last. Just as the fractal dimension is broader than the spatial dimension, the atoms comprising our DNA syntax are not unlike the celestial electric sun/son motor and its components.

Government Religion is what put "christ" to death. Just as a mirror reflects the brilliance of the sun yet is not the sun, are todays religious orders to true "christ" consciousness.

The rabbit whole consumes you. Let the fool understand.