If We Have Free Will....

reply to post by nerbot


oh?

well thanksd for the info but i would need more evidence than that my friend.

david

I absolutely agree that persicusion and judgment are against what the scriptures teach!!!!

I feel that we do have free will its the choice you make once you have heard the word"God", Jesus, Allah or any other spiritual guidance ..I myself have read the bible"new and old testaments and choose to live that way of life the best I can.

I was watching The Bible Story last night, this same question crossed my mind.

I think the problem is alot of people tend to take The Bible ands its teachings literally. Maybe its well known, but I can accept alot of it easier as being metaphors with some obscure meaning, that most people dont seem to know...they just believe the metaphor to be factual.

Take the story of Noah and the Ark. He and his close family members surely didnt gather every creature apon the earth. If they did it would take hundreds of years..maybe explaining why they lived to be 900 years old.
Where was the free will of the non-believers destined to drown? Did they also band together and build makeshift rafts? Would'nt many many of them convert and join Noah...or forced themselves on The Ark at the last moment?
That was their nature, thats why they were going to die...so they WOULD have forced themselves onto the Ark out of desperation.

I dont want to be here trying to disprove anything. I belive that, if their is some form of a creator he can be the only one to blame for creating our minds. I have free thought, an open mind to all possibilities... and a Creator will understand this.

Originally posted by Mailman
Take the story of Noah and the Ark. He and his close family members surely didnt gather every creature apon the earth. If they did it would take hundreds of years..maybe explaining why they lived to be 900 years old.

it was several of each ¨kind¨, not several of each creature. and if the story was literal its likely god would have aided

Where was the free will of the non-believers destined to drown? Did they also band together and build makeshift rafts? Would'nt many many of them convert and join Noah...or forced themselves on The Ark at the last moment?
That was their nature, thats why they were going to die...so they WOULD have forced themselves onto the Ark out of desperation.

this is an interesting point. people think they were desparate, but they werent. bible says they paid no mind. they probably thought noah was a crazy. its been estimated that likely noah took 40 years to make the ark. so for 40 years they ignored him, maybe laughed at him.

the thing was, the ark was an open invitation. anyone was permitted to start helping out, anyone was permitted to join noah. they with free will, chose not to.

and yes they would have forced themselves in the ark, however that why god himself shut the door, its likely they tried

I do not believe for ONE secound that it was the MOST HIGH of all things that brought the flood.

The Supreme One doesn't work in those kind of ways, the supreme above all, within all does not loose hope due to anger or jealousy.

The co-creator (Yahweh) of the Elohim is the one who brought the flood, and confused the languages and the one that DIDNT want Adam and Eve to partake in the Tree because one they did....he knew they would be able to see evil and good, and to see that their ruler was NOT what he portrayed himself to be....which was their God.

I know, heretical, but that is what I believe with all my heart.

A old story got very confused in the time of Moses. The serpent was actually the Holy Spirit who advised mankind and the life in mankind to eat so they would be able to remove the veil of ' not knowing' good from evil.

How would you know if an entity was good or bad if you didnt know the difference?

Yahweh saw that there were 'shining ones' on the world and it pissed him off....Yahweh, being the ruler here, brought the flood....The Most High sent an angel to save a 'shining one'.

Let me ask you this....IF it was God who brought the flood to destroy the 'bad seed'......THEN what is the 'excuse' that the Bible clearly states there was STILL BAD SEED ON THE EARTH after the flood? Thee is perfect...right? So his actions would of had perfect results....right?

Call me whatever you like....tell me I follow the wrong way....but dont be so blind to keep making excuses for a God that constantly looses hope in his creation/emanations.

My best,
LV

I understand God is all knowing and it says that in the bible but is there anyway to prove that he still doesnt know every little action to be done in the future? Some kind of argument where like you say you cant have knowledge that certain future events are true because they havent happened yet. i don't know if that makes any sense. i know what date my birthday will be on every year.. but i dont know what i am going to do on every birthday. Is there a way that even with all knowledge there are some things still left up to choice and free will? or if you know everything do you actually know all the future as well?

[edit on 31-12-2008 by jpm06002]

Originally posted by jpm06002
I understand God is all knowing and it says that in the bible but is there anyway to prove that he still doesnt know every little action to be done in the future? Some kind of argument where like you say you cant have knowledge that a future event is true because it hasnt happened yet. i don't know if that makes any sense.

2 possibilities.

1 is that god chooses not to know the future. meaning he can, but chooses to see what happen instead

or

2 god´s foreknowledge simple doesnt interfere with freewill. like a child coming home with a bad report card KNOWS his dad will be furious doesnt change the fact that the father still has the choice to be furious or not

There has always been a tension between freewill and predestination in Christianity. Calvin preached Pre-destination. Others have preached free-will.


Ultimately, it's the same in the scientific world. There are those who believe in the classical idea of determinism, then there are those who believe in the quantum idea of uncertainty and the wave equation.


These two groups continue to be at odds with each other in both the religious realm and the scientific realm.


At the most fundamental level, it has nothing to do with any actual reasoning or belief. It has to do with how people feel most secure. Some feel more secure with the idea of certainty and something that is "ordained". Others feel more secure with idea of independence and unknown possibilities.

Then there are those who believe that both are merely side effects of one's perspective. For example, the laws of classical physics and quantum physics, although at odds with each other, are both manifest at the same time. It just depends on what order of magnitude the observer is from the subject.


Ultimately, it's a futile argument that the majority of academics in the scientific and religious realms seem to pour a lot of energy into.


Is the Universe an Ordered one or a Chaotic one? It depends on who is asking the question.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by DantesLost
Scripture tells us that we have free will,that we have a choice to live as we want.It directs people to choose the righteous path,but it does not force people onto it.To do so would mean that there is no free will.

I concur with what you have said except the last part. No one forces anyone to do anything. If they comply because of fear or to relieve their guilt through false religions, then #1 it is STILL their choice (free will) to submit to the negative religion and it is the negative religion that leads to more pressure in this world; and #2 it won't be G-d that they are following (and YOU know *why* it won't be G.d they are following and I know this because of what you wrote in the above section).

G-d is sufficient to lead those hearts who are earnestly seeking Him to the appropriate knowledge. In fact, it is only the prideful "men" who seek to guilt, shame, and scare others into believing G-d. Don't be fooled by them because you DO have free will to react in a myriad of ways to any given situation and thus the weight of your life falls squarely on your shoulders alone.

You, OP, show signs of underrstanding the truth, but you seek excuses by trying to throw blame on others who are obviously misled themselves. It's not "IF" we have free will.... It's "because" we have free will that you should follow your path. You never know what is in store for you once you escape the pressure (including making excuses) of other's demands for how you should live.

Proverbs 8: (speaking of wisdom)
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

It is your journey and wisdom can only be found; and wisdom will not be found in "faith".

Originally posted by miriam0566
2 possibilities.

1 is that god chooses not to know the future. meaning he can, but chooses to see what happen instead

or

2 god´s foreknowledge simple doesnt interfere with freewill. like a child coming home with a bad report card KNOWS his dad will be furious doesnt change the fact that the father still has the choice to be furious or not

But it's not just that God is supposedly omniscient, it's that he's also omnipotent.
He not only knows what we will do, but by the very definition of 'omnipotence', he would have created it to be so.
He would have created the Devil to be evil.
If you don't believe that, then you must believe that someone can pull a fast one on God. That would be impossible being that God is all powerful and all knowing - so the will of Satan becomes the will of God's.
He created everything knowing the domino effect it would have, therefore he created us to react to certain variables which he knew would fall into place based on the way he made the universe.
A cause/reaction can only have a reaction which is based on the cause.
If an all powerful and all knowing being created the cause then he must have also created the reaction by knowing the reaction before he created the cause - therefore free-will is negated as everything becomes God's will.

reply to post by TruthParadox


I love how you think peoples beliefs have to follow some sort of reasoning or logic.

Seriously... Christianity exhorts you to believe that a man rose from the dead... twice even.

You crack me up with your pseudo-philosophical analysis of theological ideas.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I love how you think peoples beliefs have to follow some sort of reasoning or logic.

lol I don't actually .
I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy of an all powerful and all knowing being existing and us having free-will at the same time.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
You crack me up with your pseudo-philosophical analysis of theological ideas.

It's simple logic.
Explain to me how God could have created Satan NOT knowing that he would be evil.
If he's all knowing and all powerful than it's just simple logic that when he created Satan as an angel, he would have known that the way he created him would have eventually lead to destruction.

Even children know this before they are brainwashed. I've seen several times a child asking "If God created everything then doesn't that mean he created evil too?". To which the parent replies something to the effect of "You're not supposed to question the Lord."
That is faith - the ability to tune out logic and reason.

Which is why I'll continue to use logic and reason in an effort to show people how silly the whole thing is.

reply to post by TruthParadox


See that's the thing. Your assumption includes the existence of a Satan.


It's much easier to speak of this in terms which are stripped of relative context of right and wrong and abstracted into simply a discussion between order and chaos.


Is the Universe ordered all the way through each order of magnitude? Or does it depend on the perspective of the observer?

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
See that's the thing. Your assumption includes the existence of a Satan.

No, that was just an example.
All I'm assuming is that God is all knowing and all powerful - which is the commonly held belief.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Is the Universe ordered all the way through each order of magnitude? Or does it depend on the perspective of the observer?

Who knows?
But surely God would. And surely he would have made it to be so. Thus controlling our actions by making our thought process and the variables which affect it - in which case free-will is negated.

If you don't believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then I'm not arguing against you, only against those who hold that belief.

reply to post by TruthParadox


The only thing I don't believe is any conviction that there is a God of any kind.

We can't move forward with that assumption, or the contrary assumption. We have to say basically "Here there be Dragons" and leave it at that.

Otherwise we simply sound like conspiracy theorists grasping at straws of subjective interpretation.

maybe somone is thinking of god in the wrong way.....
god must be a human shaped figure who gets jelous and maybe even cosmicly poops just like us. He must obviously cry then and be joyous and sing and play scrabble. God must be a human thinking person with human caracteristics,,,, because the bible says so.....

you know cause the only other explination would be that these lost and confused poor people who couldnt read where just making crap up trying to explain some crazy stuff they saw or heard as best they could.

GOD FORBID we think of ALL of these people as falible or that they where GASP.... confused.....

i mean we all know how rational religions are right?

I pitty anyone who uncovers some novel written by HGwells after teh apocolypse... they may become terribly confused.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I'm only arguing against the Christian belief in God.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If a god does exists, who knows if he would be anything like the God of the Bible?
So I'm only arguing the assumptions that Christians have already taken as fact.

Either:
1) the Bible's description of God is wrong.
2) Human logic is incapable of understanding all the contradictions of an omnipotent and omniscient God (in which case my question would be why would he make us so inferior).
3) or God does not exist.

Of course we can't come to any concrete answers, but that shouldn't stop us from using logic and reason to determine the best solution with the knowledge we have.

Originally posted by jpm06002
I understand God is all knowing and it says that in the bible but is there anyway to prove that he still doesnt know every little action to be done in the future? Some kind of argument where like you say you cant have knowledge that certain future events are true because they havent happened yet. i don't know if that makes any sense. i know what date my birthday will be on every year.. but i dont know what i am going to do on every birthday. Is there a way that even with all knowledge there are some things still left up to choice and free will? or if you know everything do you actually know all the future as well?

Yes there is.

You see, god knows ALL. That which exists in our reality and things that do not. If he knows ALL, then he knows every single possibility that is possible.

As I mentioned before, only if all things do exist is free will possible. Because the moment something isn't allowed that is possible is the moment free will is gone.

The choices you make are yours to make, thus giving you free will. And in fact, the choices you make will determine your future.

So thus, god knowing all does not impose on your own free will.

truth paradox ill give you a hint.... its number 1.
how could you expect people with an extremely limited vocabulary, when it comes to science and phsycology, to be able to explain anything within those 2 subject areas well.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

I'm only arguing against the Christian belief in God.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If a god does exists, who knows if he would be anything like the God of the Bible?
So I'm only arguing the assumptions that Christians have already taken as fact.

Either:
1) the Bible's description of God is wrong.

That's too subjective. My interpretation of how "The Bible" describes "God" is more than likely completely different from yours. Primarily because of my education or lack thereof when it pertains to ancient manuscripts and the literary devices used during those eras.

2) Human logic is incapable of understanding all the contradictions of an omnipotent and omniscient God (in which case my question would be why would he make us so inferior).

Once again, that depends on your interpretation of God. You need to understand the evolution of the writings about God. Originally, God walks on in, in human form and sits down with Abraham. He thought he was an Angel.

Then later, God comes to Jacob in the middle of the night in human form again and the two wrestle all night. This is why, in the Jewish tradition, it's typical to actually argue with God. That's a far cry from the "we are not worthy" inferiority you are suggesting.

3) or God does not exist.

Well, Paul Tillich argued that both existence, and non-existence have their ground inside of God. So by that logic, you can't speak of God in terms of existence or non-existence.

Of course we can't come to any concrete answers, but that shouldn't stop us from using logic and reason to determine the best solution with the knowledge we have.

I'd agree... but you'd have to expand your knowledge first.