If We Have Free Will....

Why are non-believers/sinners persecuted?

Why are people persecuted for their choice of lifestyle,the things they teach,the things they learn,the things they watch/listen to etc etc?


Scripture tells us that we have free will,that we have a choice to live as we want.It directs people to choose the righteous path,but it does not force people onto it.To do so would mean that there is no free will.

To persecute people for expressing their divine right is to go against the Scripture.To say that you have freedom to believe but others should not be allowed to disbelieve,is to go against the Scripture.Those who would force their religious views and morals onto others are taking away their free will.


Dante Alighieri in The Divine Comedy wrote;
The greatest gift which God in his bounty bestowed in creating humans,and the most conformed to his own goodness,and that which he prizes the most,was the freedom of the will.

Well belief and worship/obedience are different, the bible says the devils believe, and they are destined to hell. I would say save your breath and excuses for judgement day, we don't have to give account for God's rules.If you choose to not obey you also choose the consequences man up to it, there's no free lunch!

I find it ironic that religious fold think there is free will.

According to the Bible, God seems to already konw everything....he came through prophets letting them know what was going to happen in the future. So if the prophecy was right, then God already knew that many would have to die for the land of Israel. God knew that someone was going to have to kill (go against a commandment) in order for his son to be a sacrafice. God knew that the seperating of lands would lead to wars.

In fact, God knows that only 144.000 will ascend to him (or something like that). So, I say to religious folks....Is God fortelling or is it simply God knows how we all play out the play....not really being free will at all.

If God knew Eve would eat the apple....where was Eve's free will? Some say, but God didnt know Eve would eat the apple....well then were back at square one...God is NOT all knowing.

Its a circle of trying to make reasons for something that makes no sense.

Im more along the lines that God knows us more then we know our self. We are a reflection of something that happened in the heavens....the act has done been scripted, we are just experiencing the play. Not really free will....free will is an illusion IF you believe in a higher power....because if you submit your self to that higher power....your will becomes THEE's will. If you dont believe in a higher power....of corse your going to believe you have free will, I find nothing wrong with that. Even new age groups realize, the Universe has a will...its a will that life works together and the cycles and orders be respected.

I dont get why non religious people get the feeling like religious people are trying to take their free will. umm....just say, no, go away. You have free speech and so do they. For a group of people to think they found truth...why wouldnt they go tell others, these are people that genuinly care for everyone (some are prideful, but still care).

The 2 are going to have to continue to deal with eachother. The world is never going to be ONE with beliefs....so both sides need to continue to be kind and respect we all have a birth right to be here.

Sorry if that seemed like a bunch of nonsense, but its one of those things that is never going to go away. And it shouldn't, we are all like colors and stitches in a quilt, the variety of humans is the spice of this world. Learn to love it all.

Peace, LV

Why should anyone's free will be curbed by anyone else? Why should anyone be stopped from commiting what I consider to be henious and foul crimes such as murder or rape or child abuse? If it is there free will to do these things then who are we to stop them?

Yet most people would stop them and rightly so. On what grounds though do we say this. How philosophically can we demand that there are certain things which are true and right and others which are not? How can we determine that rape and murder are wrong?

It isn't just the religous that stop so-called free will. You have the choice to break any rule you want. Go and try robbing a bank and see if your free will doesn't have consequences. Go and try advocating the overthrow of a government using force and see if you are stopped.

In fact anyone here who has children will know that they stop their kids from doing what they want. We don't let them run anywhere they want, like into a road, we don't let them eat whatever and whenever they want, or else there will be loads of sick to clear up We in fact put rules in place to protect our children, and then we enforce them. This is what the scriptures view is. God has put his law in place for our good and will enforce that law in the end. It would be better for all if we followed it now rather than waiting for the last day and saying, ooopps.

racegunz

If you choose to not obey you also choose the consequences man up to it, there's no free lunch!

Consequences which,if you believe,will only come after Jesus has returned.If i accept that then no one has a right to force their pov on me.



LeoVirgo

According to the Bible, God seems to already konw everything.

Thats a debate that could last forever.lol.

I dont get why non religious people get the feeling like religious people are trying to take their free will. umm....just say, no, go away. You have free speech and so do they. For a group of people to think they found truth...why wouldnt they go tell others, these are people that genuinly care for everyone (some are prideful, but still care).

Because they are.
Religions push their views into politics,education,showbiz,sexuality etc.It if involved just their own flock,they would have a right.But to dictate to those who aren't and to those who have no religion,from the stand point of their faith should not be allowed.No Christian would be happy to let a Muslim,Hindu or non-believer dictate to them.




Iggus

Why should anyone's free will be curbed by anyone else? Why should anyone be stopped from commiting what I consider to be henious and foul crimes such as murder or rape or child abuse? If it is there free will to do these things then who are we to stop them?

Well done.It only took 3 posts to get to this view.
By going straight to the extreme end of human behaviour you miss out the simple,non violent and non crime areas.Its a good scare tactic used with great skill by politicians,lawyers,religious leaders etc.



[edit on 23-12-2008 by DantesLost]

Does anyone think that perhaps it is possible that all religions are really just different perceptions of one true religion?

I believe it is called debating. I notice that you don't actually respond to the main point though. Why should I be moral at all? Why should I follow your idea as to what may or may not be moral?

Also why shouldn't religous views be taken in these other areas? By what value judgement system do you say that all other views are acceptable except religious ones?

So many questions, but you wont answer any of them

Free will does not mean that there are no consequences for our actions.

Iggus

I notice that you don't actually respond to the main point though. Why should I be moral at all? Why should I follow your idea as to what may or may not be moral?

As i said in another thread you have replied on;Morality,like our conscience,is a built-in condition of humanity,the moral tendency exists in just about everyone,barring psychopaths.The principle of morality is empathy.Even criminals have a form of morality.(some,not all,obviously)

You don't have to follow my ideas on morality,I never said that.You follow what you want,just don't push your belief onto others.Free will should not be taken from people,especially in the name of a faith that isn't there own.

Also why shouldn't religous views be taken in these other areas? By what value judgement system do you say that all other views are acceptable except religious ones?

Because other views are open to debate and change.Religious views are steadfast and dogmatic.

Originally posted by DantesLost
Why are non-believers/sinners persecuted?

These two are separate catagories. Sinners = everyone. Non-believer is a choice (free will)

Originally posted by DantesLost
Why are people persecuted for their choice of lifestyle,the things they teach,the things they learn,the things they watch/listen to etc etc?

What do you mean "persecuted". Do you mean being told they're wrong? I hope that when I do something wrong someone tells me. That's more love than letting me screw things up.

Originally posted by racegunz
Well belief and worship/obedience are different, the bible says the devils believe, and they are destined to hell.

The Bible says the demons believe God is One, not that Jesus is their saviour who came in the flesh from God.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. " - James 2:19 (reading this in context really helps by the way, James is frequently misunderstood because of it)

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God." - 1 John 4:2

It's actually a pretty simple test and works.

Originally posted by veryrandomannonomous
Does anyone think that perhaps it is possible that all religions are really just different perceptions of one true religion?

Many people have thought that over many thousands of years, though this populations vote do not create the truth.

reply to post by saint4God


I actually think there is great evidence to show religions evolving from each other, but yet to suit the culture or people that were ready to 'evolve' spiritually with the past teachings.

Many times a man has come and said 'I am the light, the way, the truth'.

Many times, civilizations evolved with the similar morals of love your neighbor and do not kill.

The dates of religion's holidays and traditions reflect the former culture, people of the former spirituality. Also, with one belief, many sects are also formed, particular sects might migrate to new land, and again, we see beliefs evolving with a new culture.

This is why I think a spiritual person should study all materials that beliefs originated from. Then you see the over all message of live, learn and love. Most religions also see the symbolism of 'there is only one true light'.

Studying all materials and histories has made me more spiritual actually, knowing the desire and seeking of a 'one light' has been ever since man has seen the sun in the sky.



Just thoughts,
LV

I believe in free will. Although someone else's free will can impede on your own. They can lock you up yet you still have free will, but it is limited. Someone else can also end your free will in this reality by ending your life excercising their own free will to do so. People argue about god knowing the future so how can there be free will? An entity who supasses space time would have no concept similiar to our own on space and time, since it is an illusion pepretuated by us to help explain what we don't understand. History and the future is the outcome of everyone's free will acting upon one another. To an outside observer who isn't restricted by illusions of time and space, this would be apparent. This entity would see the outcome of our free will. I suggest that it may look like everything happening at once. God knew eve would give adam the apple. Our history shaped the present, future through free will and god would be able to see the outcome. The real question is how would mankind come about if eve didn't give adam the apple?

Originally posted by DantesLost
You don't have to follow my ideas on morality,I never said that.You follow what you want,just don't push your belief onto others.Free will should not be taken from people,especially in the name of a faith that isn't there own.

This one section is the exact problem with your understanding. Why should free will not be taken fom others? How can you tell me that I shouldn't take it from others having just said that I don't have to follow your ideas on morality.

On the other point, about morailty being in built, I would agree. Although how do you account for it being there? I think that God put it there so that no one has an excuse for their sin. How do you think that it got there?

we have free 'will'

but in actuallity we are not free .. we are a world of open range slavery

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Cio88]

reply to post by DantesLost

Consequences which,if you believe,will only come after Jesus has returned.If i accept that then no one has a right to force their pov on me.

But what about their free will to press their pov??? quite the conundrum huh? As far as I'm concerned you can do as you please, if there's no God especially no Savior then you will have no non-earthly consequences if there is then you will you don't have to agree with it for it to be so. Best of luck to you.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. " - James 2:19 (reading this in context really helps by the way, James is frequently misunderstood because of it)

reply to post by saint4God

Thanks for the quote it was just the verse I was thinking of!, the mystery of the "trinity" is another debate, one I don't care to get into either.
The demons recognized Jesus for who he was, The Holy One of God and Son of the Most High (my personal favorite name for the Father) Regards to you for your posts!

saint4God

What do you mean "persecuted". Do you mean being told they're wrong? I hope that when I do something wrong someone tells me. That's more love than letting me screw things up.

Persecuted:to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment,esp.because of religion,race,beliefs etc;harass persistently.




Iggus

Why should free will not be taken fom others? How can you tell me that I shouldn't take it from others having just said that I don't have to follow your ideas on morality.

You think you should be able to take someone's free will from them? You think others have a right to tell you what to do in every single aspect of your life?



Cio88

but in actuallity we are not free .. we are a world of open range slavery

I've always liked this quote from Voltaire.

A man is born free,yet everywhere he is in chains.

racegunz

But what about their free will to press their pov??? quite the conundrum huh?

Not really.
Believers are encouraged to spread the word,but not through persecution or torture.(as in the past)

Here is how free will exists.

Lets start with a simple question. Do the tracks free the train, or do the tracks enslave the train?

Truth is, neither of them provide freedom. The tracks only provide the illusion that the train is free, when it is still enslaved. As soon as that train decides it wants to go somewhere the tracks don't go, he quickly realizes he isn't free.

The only way for free will to exist is for every possibility to exist. Each of them side by side. Quantum physics is starting to tap into this somewhat, but the entire concept of consciousness in a lab sets the methodology of science on it's head.

For more detail on how the universe actually is, read this post by me:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Without a universe such as this, freewill for anything does not exist. All possibilities are there. Think of a movie film, and multiple endings, or chose your own adventure books that have every option you can think of.

However - funny thing about free will. Part of having free will is the ability to give it away. You do this subconsciously all the time. It's not always bad, it's sometimes needed to experience things. Ever play poker? Well what keeps you from looking at the other players cards? Because in agreement for the game, you have given away the free will to see those cards. You have chosen to purposely remain ignorant of those cards to play the game, and of course your opponent has done the same thing. And so when you are in a reality such as this one, it's because you have given away some of your free will to do so. You have to remain ignorant to other things in order to get the effect of life. If you remembered before or after it, then life would not be the same experience. Just as if you could see the other persons cards in poker, you could not play the game the same way.

Also of question is how you move through the universe. You get back when you put into it. Reap what you sow, eye for an eye, judge not yest you be judged, live by the sword, die by the sword etc. All examples of getting back what you put into it. So if you do bad things that is what you get back. And if you do good things then that is also what you get back. So if you are hypocritical in your actions and what you do, then you will likely not see this happening and you play the victim only making it worse.

The rules of god aren't very broad or demanding really. Those who persecute are the same hypocrites Jesus dealt with.



[edit on 26-12-2008 by badmedia]