Occultism is not Satanism

Originally posted by tgambill
He is a just and loving God with reward for those that follow his commandments and punishment for those that disobey his commandments and ignore the sacrifice he made of his only begotten son.....who died for our sins and rose again in order that we may live. The Bible is specific. about his wrath and justice.......he sets the punishment not us.

www.christianwhirledview.com...

www.1way2god.net...

www.specialtyinterests.net...

Sounds more like the church your talking about, and not God. The God I have found is a loving God, who allows us to experiance life so he may learn from it. God doesn`t punish us, we punish ourselves for the wrong we may do. We create the heaven and hell in life. God sent Jesus to us to teach us that God is within us, and that we CAN forgive ourselves for any wrong we may have done. The church has instilled in man, that God will take you out of the picture if we do not follow the ways of the church, and what they want us to believe. No, I`m sorry, but the picture of God that the church paints for us, I find has an evil side, and the God I know, does not have an evil side. So enjoy your God all you want, and there is no need to shove him onto everyone else around you. No thanks.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by FiatLux]

"Sounds more like the church your talking about, and not God. The God I have found is a loving God, who allows us to experiance life so he may learn from it."

******Sorry, but you cannot create a God yourself. God is who he is......and his commandments, his story is not a mystery in the Bible. You can't make up a God because it fits your own belief.

"God doesn`t punish us, we punish ourselves for the wrong we may do."

*****This is making up a god along the way. The Real God will in fact punish us for not accepting his son Jesus Christ, you better believe it.

"We create the heaven and hell in life. God sent Jesus to us to teach us that God is within us, and that we CAN forgive ourselves for any wrong we may have done."

******These are manmade lies and inspired by Satan to lead man from the truth. As humans we can't create, and we can't even destroy. We came here with nothing and we leave here with nothing. Everything was made for us, we just changed the shape in our short stay.


"The church has instilled in man, that God will take you out of the picture if we do not follow the ways of the church, and what they want us to believe."

*****yes, the church does and this is the falling away that God has warned us about. Jesus didn't come into this world to bring us religion, he brought us salvation and an eternal life if we accept Jesus as Savior.

"No, I`m sorry, but the picture of God that the church paints for us, I find has an evil side, and the God I know, does not have an evil side."

******Boy that is an understatement, bravo......you got it pal.

Originally posted by tgambill
"Yes, God did give us free will. And I for one I reject the concept of a Satan. But, even more, it may just be, you are spreading the word of Satan. You could be a pawn in all of this for having fallen for the churches story."

******Free will is not what you declare it to be. Free will is given so that you can chose to follow Jesus or follow Satan. Jesus said himself, you cannot serve two masters. You will love one and hate the other. Accepting or rejecting the existence of Satan is not included in free will. If you don't know the truth, you will not know the tricks that Satan will use to lure you away from truth, the truth that Jesus is the only way to God. Not Mary, not beads, not saints nor good works. Only by accepting Jesus as personal savior....alone.

Oh, so I see now you want to teach that free will has two categories that come with it. Jesus and Satan. You see, you even fall for the clap trap of the church, you like the church, give Satan life and power over people. I don`t, because I believe the church created Satan as a way to keep control over us, and I for one do not, and will not buy it from them or you, no matter how much you want to shake the book at me and threaten me with your damnation. And Jesus was right, we can not serve two masters, God, and the other the church created, Satan. Why do you think he told this? He told it so people would stop giving power to something that the church made up, a false God, as in Satan. And as far finding God, just through Jesus? Why then did Jesus say, knock and ye shall find, knock and the door shall open? He was telling us, seek deep inside for God, and God will answer. God has been with us from the very start, it`s just that many have forgotten this, and seek God on the outside, not inside as they should. Yes, he is all around us, and always was and always will be. But to touch the hand of God, or be personal with him, we must go within to do that. I myself can look around and see God in everything that is. And when I want to be even closer, I go within.

"Oh, so I see now you want to teach that free will has two categories that come with it. Jesus and Satan. You see, you even fall for the clap trap of the church, you like the church, give Satan life and power over people."

*****No, people give power to Satan if they take him on alone. Denying Satan exists gives him full power. He comes to mankind three ways. He convinces some he doesn't exists which makes them unaware of his tricks that are hidden. The second type he comes to them as Satan, evil, ugly, powerful which he isn't.....and they like this. The third way is to cater to the benevolent ways as Lucifer, the enlightened one. The Illuminati master, Christ like and wise, which is the lie he is making to world leaders today. The New Age Satanic Movement, Scientology, etc.......


"I don`t, because I believe the church created Satan as a way to keep control over us, and I for one do not, and will not buy it from them or you,"

*****God created Lucifer and Lucifer rebelled and became Satan on Earth. simple.

"And as far finding God, just through Jesus? Why then did Jesus say, knock and ye shall find, knock and the door shall open? He was telling us, seek deep inside for God, and God will answer."

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Knock and seek Jesus is clearly what he is telling you.......

"God has been with us from the very start, it`s just that many have forgotten this, and seek God on the outside, not inside as they should."

*****We can't save ourselves. Nowhere is it written that this is true. Only through Jesus Christ.

Within??? that is the new Age Movement and the Occult talking....come on man snap out of it, read the Bible, all through it Jesus is the center figure....

reply to post by tgambill


"Sorry, but you cannot create a God yourself. God is who he is......and his commandments, his story is not a mystery in the Bible. You can't make up a God because it fits your own belief."

Your right, I can not create a God myself, I don`t need to, God created me, and is within me. I don`t need any other God. Commandments made up by who, the church or God? No, I can`t make up a God, but YOU and the CHURCH can make up a Satan to cover for the evil man doesn`t want to take responsibility for.

"This is making up a god along the way. The Real God will in fact punish us for not accepting his son Jesus Christ, you better believe it."

That`s funny, I`ve always accepted Jesus and his true teachings, and at the same time, do not buy the Satan scam the church wants to sell us. Your God may punish you becuae you buy it. The God I believe in has more love then that.

"These are manmade lies and inspired by Satan to lead man from the truth. As humans we can't create, and we can't even destroy. We came here with nothing and we leave here with nothing. Everything was made for us, we just changed the shape in our short stay."

It`s a lie to you, because you buy what the church sells. I don`t, sorry, and never will. I do not force my God on anyone, as you are trying to do with yours. I will not buy into a scam as the fundamentalists do. I don`t try and cram my God down peoples throats, and threaten them with everlasting damnation if they do not buy it. Sorry, so don`t try and take me down your path, thank you.

"yes, the church does and this is the falling away that God has warned us about. Jesus didn't come into this world to bring us religion, he brought us salvation and an eternal life if we accept Jesus as Savior."

God warned us, or, was it the churchs way of keeping the masses coming to them? Sounds more like the churches self empowerment over the people to me.
Your right, Jesus didn`t bring religion into this world, the church has done enough of that.

"Boy that is an understatement, bravo......you got it pal."

You want understatements, go back and re-read what you have posted.....pal.

reply to post by tgambill


"No, people give power to Satan if they take him on alone. Denying Satan exists gives him full power. He comes to mankind three ways. He convinces some he doesn't exists which makes them unaware of his tricks that are hidden. The second type he comes to them as Satan, evil, ugly, powerful which he isn't.....and they like this. The third way is to cater to the benevolent ways as Lucifer, the enlightened one. The Illuminati master, Christ like and wise, which is the lie he is making to world leaders today. The New Age Satanic Movement, Scientology, etc......."

"Denying Satan exists gives him full power." Wow, and you say I make understatements. That`s like saying, if I take my foot off the accelerator of my car, it will go full power. Gee, the last time I knew, if you take something away, it gets less and less. Now.........who`s teaching the crap?

"God created Lucifer and Lucifer rebelled and became Satan on Earth. simple."

It`s always simple isn`t it when we buy that from others. Makes life simple doesn`t it?

"John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Knock and seek Jesus is clearly what he is telling you......."

No, it`s the Christ we seek, not Jesus the man. Christ is the energy/consciousness of God that Jesus brought with him into that life. And that is what he taught, we have that within us if we seek it. It is that part of God that lives within each of us. The energy that is life.

"We can't save ourselves. Nowhere is it written that this is true. Only through Jesus Christ"

So, when Jesus said 'you need to first forgive yourself", he was just kidding, right?

"Denying Satan exists gives him full power." Wow, and you say I make understatements.

"That`s like saying, if I take my foot off the accelerator of my car, it will go full power. Gee, the last time I knew, if you take something away, it gets less and less. Now.........who`s teaching the crap?"

*****A car isn't planning your destruction and orchestrating a world revolution smart guy. A car doesn't think, Satan does.

"No, it`s the Christ we seek, not Jesus the man. Christ is the energy/consciousness of God that Jesus brought with him into that life. And that is what he taught, we have that within us if we seek it. It is that part of God that lives within each of us. The energy that is life."

*****Oh bull. Stop lying to these people. This is the Oprah, New Age Religion, dogma. Nothing more than Dr. Feelgood, and exaulting man to lead from truth. He didn't teach what you are saying. The Bible tells us what he taught, and I have no idea which Jesus you are talking about. The one you are speaking about comes from another book.

"We can't save ourselves. Nowhere is it written that this is true. Only through Jesus Christ"

So, when Jesus said 'you need to first forgive yourself", he was just kidding, right?

*****We forgive ourselves so that this won't hold us back from seeking his redemption and salvation. My friend, you won't win using the spins.

You want truth....here you go.....


Read through before hitting the video..................................then if you are interested in the video or scanning it, here it is.

video.google.com...

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency,
first by inflation, then by deflation,
the banks will deprive the people of all property
until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
~~~Thomas Jefferson~~~

This is a very interesting video. It ties some things together that I had suspected. Okay, reference the Thomas Jefferson Quote. This was the real Thomas Jefferson. In spite of his stance, later in 1790's after the Revolutionary war Adam Weishaupt, must have seen Thomas Jefferson the easier one to turn or whatever reason, he put the squeeze on TJ. I know that all were Masons. However, not all knew about the world conspiracy. John Robison, wrote, "The Proofs Of a Conspiracy" in 1798. George Washington and John Adams became acutely aware of the cancer that was spreading to actually destroy the very Constitution that they had just written. He, [GW] had turned down an offer by the Masons to take a high position. He did not trust the Jacobins. He was also disappointing with Thomas Jeffererson for protecting and working with Adam Weishaupt, an Illuminist. Weishaupt designed the plan, and he was a Luciferian, Masons and laid the plan for the Iluminati, retained by the Rothschilds. GW died in 1799, maybe natural causes and then begin the establishment of the second trigger for the next war, slavery. This was the purpose of slavery in the first place to be a trigger for a civil war that the Rothschilds would engineer and during this "civil war" the Europeans would invade and take over. So, they implanted into the southern culture, slavery to be used as the trigger for a civil war generations later. In 1850, it was time, they planned our civil war. Rothschilds funded both sides of our civil war, Europeans joined both sides as allies with different countries taking sides. Opppppps, the Tsar sends troops to NY Harbor to aid Lincoln. This spoiled the European invasion because the Tsar of Russia knew about the plot. The Rothschild vowed revenge and got it in the planned Russian revolution and the assassination of the Russian Czar later in the 1900's. How do I know this, well, Wall Street funded Lenin, Bolsheviks and later Hitler. Worked out beautifully. Albert Pike passed the document provided by Clinton Roosevelt, 1841 to Karl Marx, who rewrote the document and called it the "Communist Manifesto"....1848. Reference the lie in our history books that Karl Marx and Engels wrote it. bull.......Clinton Roosevelt, ancestor to another U.S. Traitor, FDR, WWII, obtained the root document from Mazzini, [organizer of the MAFIA in the 1890's] who got the document from none other than............Adam Weishaupt who died in the 1830s, via the Masons link. It was all a perfectly planned set up taking generations to plan and put bring into fruition. The same plan that we are living today with the failing banks, bailout, war in Iraq......war against terror all of this is just the same plan that is carried by the 13 Illuminati famlies as a family tradition and goal. All of this is supported by irrefutable historical proof that no university History or Political Science professor could refute.

Now, Back to the video. Naomi Wolf is a Rhodes Scholar. The Rhodes scholarship program was specifically designed to train its receiptents for a global agenda. Our man Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. They are essentially manchurian candidates. In short, these people that pretend to be patriots talking about the US becoming a facist state is right. They are fulfilling the same plan that Adam Weishaupt set forth long ago to bring us into a One World Government except many generations later. How? They use the Masons, Vatican, Zionism or anti-semite as covers. The Christian Zionist are handing the Christian side to keep them in line. The Charasmatic movement was also designed to slow down the committment to Jesus Christ as a personal savior in a very clever manner using Christian rock music and evangelicals to turn believers in the right time to the new age movement. In any case back to the Wolf; these manchurian candidates tell just enough truth about the government to disgust the public about the government that they will accept the next best thing, A UN DICTATORSHIP and ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT sold as the perfect plan for peace.......A BIG LIE.

Trace any step here, as I have shortened it, and you will find it all is linked completely. They create depressions, wars, revolutions, assassinations, inflations, recessions like a music conductor. How? Masons, Vatican, Zionism, Counsel on Foreign Relations [invite only], Trilateral Commission, Counsel of the 13, Committee of the 300, RIIA in England, Bank of England, Round Table discussion groups, Iron Mountain Commission 1963, the list goes and goes........all under the control of Lucifer.......as its the same 13 families that are pulling the strings. I can promise you that they will fail. Jesus Christ will return and the supernatural part of this plan will be made manifest.

Sorry, got on a roll but this is a complicated situation we are all in...............

Tom

PS there does remain one question...............or one possibility about the authors. Do they know that they are being used, or are they unaware of the Illuminati conspiracy and are being allowed to bring this to the surface without knowing the role they are playing. Do they believe that they are serving a greater good by participating? This is how the CFR, masons, and all the others work. Its like peeling an onion of awareness one layer not knowing what the next layer knows.......

reply to post by FiatLux


"A car isn't planning your destruction and orchestrating a world revolution smart guy. A car doesn't think, Satan does."

No, a car isn`t, maybe man is doing the planning though. A car wasn`t made up by the church either, was it?

"Oh bull. Stop lying to these people. This is the Oprah, New Age Religion, dogma. Nothing more than Dr. Feelgood, and exaulting man to lead from truth. He didn't teach what you are saying. The Bible tells us what he taught, and I have no idea which Jesus you are talking about. The one you are speaking about comes from another book."

Oh bull? Stop lying? Dr. Feelgood? Smart guy? You know, one thing I have always found when a fundamentalist has their religion questioned, is that they first get mad, then they get defensive when the other person doesn`t back down to their way of thinking. Sorry if I don`t back down to you.
Back to the discussion. And you know for a fact, that he didn`t teach this? What, because the Bible says so? You can hand ten Bibles to ten different people, have them read the same chapter, and they will give you ten different versions of what they all read and got from it. As far as you not knowing which Jesus I speak of, he`s the one who said we must forgive ourselves, you know, Yeshua Ben Joseph, Jesus the Christ. Why, do you know another one?

"We forgive ourselves so that this won't hold us back from seeking his redemption and salvation. My friend, you won't win using the spins."

What spins? "We can't save ourselves. Nowhere is it written that this is true. Only through Jesus Christ"

"So, when Jesus said 'you need to first forgive yourself", he was just kidding, right?"

How is forgiving ourselves first, NOT saving ourselves?

As far as the video, I have seen it three times. I`ve never said there wasn`t evil in this world, there is, a lot of it. The greatest evil I see, are those of great wealth and power, who seek to rule over everyone. They believe in Lucifer. What they believe in has nothing to do with what I believe in. I believe in the Christ.








[edit on 27-12-2008 by FiatLux]

THE CHRIST you speak of is the New Age Satanic Religion. There is but one Jesus Christ. The name is Jesus. He is the one that took the punishment that was meant for mankind and he alone is the savior.

That will become apparent when the day of Judgment comes. Much will happen in the meantime.

Originally posted by tgambill
THE CHRIST you speak of is the New Age Satanic Religion. There is but one Jesus Christ. The name is Jesus. He is the one that took the punishment that was meant for mankind and he alone is the savior.

That will become apparent when the day of Judgment comes. Much will happen in the meantime.

Oh, so his name was not Yeshua ben Joseph? You know, I hate to break it to you, but, just a little secret between you and I, that`s his real name. It`s Hebrew, meaning Jesus son of Joseph. So, Jesus the Christ was of a New Age Satanic religion? And you think his last name was Christ? Was that Josephs last name? Joseph Christ, Mary Christ? Where other then the Bible does it say that was his last name? Do you know what the word Christ means?

Edit to add: The real way the name was given is, Yeshua ben Yosef.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by FiatLux]

"Oh, so his name was not Yeshua ben Joseph? You know, I hate to break it to you, but, just a little secret between you and I, that`s his real name."

****its okay, because you have no basis for this assertion. NONE other than your opinion or a recent new age writer. This is not his real name. His real name if Jesus Christ, Jesus the annointed one. Christ = annointed one. Notice that Billy Graham doesn't mention Jesus as the Christ, and even ignores Jesus as the Savior specifically. The acceptance of the Christ, is the lead-in for the world ruler that will claim to be the Christ but will be a false christ who is yet to come.

www.metacafe.com...


"It`s Hebrew, meaning Jesus son of Joseph. So, Jesus the Christ was of a New Age Satanic religion?"

*****From the Old Testament to the New Jesus alone fulfilled over 300 specific, detailed prophesies concering his claim to be the son of God, Messiah, the Christ. Jesus was not son of Joseph he was the only begotten son of God. The Holy Spirit willed God's seed into Mary and he was born from a virgin birth. Interesting you make this false claim. It will be exactly the claim of the coming anti-Christ that Jesus Married and he is from the Royal line of Jesus as supported by the Pope and everyone else. IT will be a major LIE.


"And you think his last name was Christ? Was that Josephs last name?"

****No last name. Christ is not a last name. It means Jesus the Annoited one.

Originally posted by tgambill
"Oh, so his name was not Yeshua ben Joseph? You know, I hate to break it to you, but, just a little secret between you and I, that`s his real name."

****its okay, because you have no basis for this assertion. NONE other than your opinion or a recent new age writer. This is not his real name. His real name if Jesus Christ, Jesus the annointed one. Christ = annointed one. Notice that Billy Graham doesn't mention Jesus as the Christ, and even ignores Jesus as the Savior specifically. The acceptance of the Christ, is the lead-in for the world ruler that will claim to be the Christ but will be a false christ who is yet to come.

www.metacafe.com...


"It`s Hebrew, meaning Jesus son of Joseph. So, Jesus the Christ was of a New Age Satanic religion?"

*****From the Old Testament to the New Jesus alone fulfilled over 300 specific, detailed prophesies concering his claim to be the son of God, Messiah, the Christ. Jesus was not son of Joseph he was the only begotten son of God. The Holy Spirit willed God's seed into Mary and he was born from a virgin birth. Interesting you make this false claim. It will be exactly the claim of the coming anti-Christ that Jesus Married and he is from the Royal line of Jesus as supported by the Pope and everyone else. IT will be a major LIE.


"And you think his last name was Christ? Was that Josephs last name?"

****No last name. Christ is not a last name. It means Jesus the Annoited one.

I really want people to read what you stated above.

Are you really afraid to learn something new? Like the Christs name Yeshua ben Yosef. Ask anyone who may be from that part of the world, they will tell you the same thing. How you get that it was my opinion, i`ll never know. I hope you do know that they didn`t speak in English, and that his name in the Hebrew texts was Yeshua ben Yosef, and the translation was Jesus son of Joseph. Because Joseph raised him from birth and accepted him as his son. I`m sorry, not even you are above that. You can deny it all you want, but it`s in the Hebrew texts.

I`m sorry if you think Jesus was English, but, I guess that`s what the Bible says, right? Being blinded by faith won`t get you glory in Heaven before the rest of us I`m afraid. Oh, yea, before I forget, when did I say Jesus was married? I love it when you put words in something I never stated. Your fundamentalism is showing through. Like I said earlier, having a discussion with a fundamentalist alway comes out the same. They get mad, then they get defensive and then they start adding things to what I say, and I never said it.

All my posts are here, show me where I said he was married. Why do you do that? And you have the nads to call me a lier? Isn`t it being a hypocrite when you put on an air as being so good and Christian like, then add things to what someone else said, when they didn`t say it, only trying to make them look bad?

"Are you really afraid to learn something new?"

*****I have this awful habit of not wanting to learn points that are false. I don't even like to read fiction books.


"Like the Christs name Yeshua ben Yosef. Ask anyone who may be from that part of the world, they will tell you the same thing. How you get that it was my opinion, i`ll never know. I hope you do know that they didn`t speak in English, and that his name in the Hebrew texts was Yeshua ben Yosef, and the translation was Jesus son of Joseph."

******Joseph raised him with Mary, but apparently you have no concept of what a bloodline is. He was not from the Bloodline of Joseph, he was from the Royal line of David, whom Mary was related. BLOODLINE, son, BLOODLINE is the name of the game.

"Because Joseph raised him from birth and accepted him as his son. I`m sorry, not even you are above that. You can deny it all you want, but it`s in the Hebrew texts. "

****Raised and having bloodline are apples and oranges. Surely you have this basic concept down.

"Oh, yea, before I forget, when did I say Jesus was married?"

*****I'm far ahead of you. You didn't say anything about it but I did because the Catholic church and New Agers will make this false claim. This is going to be the claim to fame that Jesus was married and the anti-christ will be decendent of Jesus.

y-jesus.com...

www.jesusanddavinci.com...

www.allaboutgod.com...

They will try to their hearts content to lie their way to lost souls. They will fail. Come on now, try to keep up with the daily word.

******You are either not doing your research or you are being deceptive....

reply to post by tgambill


"I have this awful habit of not wanting to learn points that are false. I don't even like to read fiction books."

Yea, it` s more of a shame though. I pitty you. The only concept of reality you will ever have of life, is the one the church dictates to you. It`s such a narrow minded concept at that. One day, your reality is going to get shaken to the core, and it will come as a rude awakening to you. While the rest of the world and humanity grows and moves on, your going to still be setting there all rapped up nice and comfy in the pages of your Bible, wondering where everyone else has gone. No, your not growing, your stagnated spiritually.

"Joseph raised him with Mary, but apparently you have no concept of what a bloodline is. He was not from the Bloodline of Joseph, he was from the Royal line of David, whom Mary was related. BLOODLINE, son, BLOODLINE is the name of the game."

Fundamentalism.......a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching.

In other words, your in a reality lock. Maybe one day, you`ll have an open mind, but I don`t see that happening anytime soon. But hey, whatever trips your trigger I always say.

"Raised and having bloodline are apples and oranges. Surely you have this basic concept down."

Yea, I know, your the expert. No one else knows the truth like you do.

"I'm far ahead of you. You didn't say anything about it but I did because the Catholic church and New Agers will make this false claim. This is going to be the claim to fame that Jesus was married and the anti-christ will be decendent of Jesus.'

Somewhere in those deep dark empty recesses of your mind you may think your ahead of me, and everyone else, but I highly doubt it. Your no more spiritually aware then the next person.


"They will try to their hearts content to lie their way to lost souls. They will fail. Come on now, try to keep up with the daily word.

******You are either not doing your research or you are being deceptive...."

I see your hooked on this Da Vinci Code stuff. Well, I`ve never seen the movie, and don`t really care to. If you think that I believe in the Da Vinci Code crap.....sorry to burst your little bubble, but I don`t. You may think I am being deceptive, but that`s fine, think whatever you want, it`s your right. Even though I`m not being deceptive, your narrow field of thought would tell you otherwise.

I see you as a tree, a two dimensional thinker whos roots are planted and you can`t see beyond that little space you occupy, living in a 3rd dimensional world, and that world around you is growing and learning without you, and it`s growing toward the 4th dimension. Your stuck, and I wish you the best of luck.


I just want it known, that everthing I have posted up to this point, is nothing more, then my own opinion. I don`t know how others feel about this discussion, but I would like to hear some other view points on this subject.





[edit on 27-12-2008 by FiatLux]

There is a Place where the Blind Unseeing (and unknowing-uncaring to Know) will be relegated...The VOID.

Religious dogma believers seek death in preference to Wisdom. I see it daily, observe their minds & spirit.

Example 1: Customer: "My mother almost, almost used the 'F' word, but didn't. She prayed and prayed to jesu to forgive her." Does she watch tv? "I have to watch all the shows first before she will, so that there is nothing bad in them for her to see." I've met her. Wondrous example of blindness.

Example 2: My Grandmother (shortly before she died): "I don't understand what it all means, M___ (my sister)." Went to church 3-7 days a week for most her elder life (when not too busy on the farm); made every child contract to say the rosary as a family every night for 10 yrs.! And had no idea what the christian theology was about.

Same with all the dogma followers: nothing can change their stout, blind, frozen minds...death before Truth!

The Truth exists as The WORD. And it isn't a savior figurine or monster.
But, those who know, Know; those who choose a religious Mediator, will never know (nor care to).

Carry On.


[edit on 27-12-2008 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by SS,Naga


You see, that`s the problem. Those stuck in the fundamental church teachings think that all others don`t believe anything that the Bible says. And I say they are wrong. There are many things in the Bible that all these others do believe, but, there are just as many parts they don`t believe. Because they are not stuck in the fundamental ways of the church, does not make these people wrong or bad.

"I see your hooked on this Da Vinci Code stuff. Well, I`ve never seen the movie, and don`t really care to."

****The Bible code and Duh Vinchi code is 100% bunk and a big lie. You can throw your copy of the book in the trash can as a poor piece of fiction.

Originally posted by tgambill
"I see your hooked on this Da Vinci Code stuff. Well, I`ve never seen the movie, and don`t really care to."

****The Bible code and Duh Vinchi code is 100% bunk and a big lie. You can throw your copy of the book in the trash can as a poor piece of fiction.

Umm, I don`t have that book.

Ok, I`ll play along with your mind for a bit.

Would you do something for me please? When you see that book again in your mind, throw it away for me. Thank you, that will take care of the book I don`t have, and the one you seem to think I have in your mind. That would be the good Christian fundamentalist thing for you to do. Again, thank you.

Can you say.......delusional? Something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary ; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs.

reply to post by FiatLux


I was just looking at Prometheus Rising again and the author sums up this kind of outlook in the opening paragraphs.

A professor and an old lady are having a discussion. The old lady thinks that the Earth is held up by a giant turtle. The professor asks, "But what's holding up the turtle?" The old lady realizes where the professor is going with this and responds, "Another turtle. It's turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down."

Here everything falls back onto one individual's interpretation of Christian scripture (and there are so many variations on them), and what is there to proof or justify it? More of the same scripture, of course, all falling within the same interpretation by the same man. There is no end to it, and none of it is of any meaningful philosophical value (to me) or can be verified independently. No, I don't find philosophical value in someone pleading for me to believe in them and have faith in them.

The people that have arbitrary beliefs justified by circular or inconsistent reasoning are really a dime a dozen in this country, which is why I really try to avoid expending a lot of energy in futile arguments with them.

reply to post by bsbray11


Yes, i know what your saying. I never use to get into discussions like this because of what a close friend of mine once told me. Like you and he both said "Never get into a discussion about religion with a fundamentalist Christian, because it`s a hopeless thing. You will never get your point across to them because in their mind, they are never wrong, and anything you have to say, no matter how wise it is, will fall on deaf ears, because to them, you are either possed by Satan, or it`s pure nonsense. And all because what you say does not fit in, or follow their Bible."

So for years I didn`t discuss it. Until one evening I had a man knock at my door. He was the pastor of a local church trying to get people to come to his services. I let him in, and that`s when it all started. We talked for a bit after introductions, and then he quoted a verse from his Bible, and wanted to know what I thought of it. Well, i told him my version of it, and he looked at me in a funny way. Again he quoted a verse, and again I told him my version. This went on for a while, and he finally looked at me and asked "do you own a Bible?", I told him I did, and he asked if he could see it. So I went and got it, then showed it to him. I had noticed that everytime i would tell him my version he would check it with his book to see if it followed what the book said. After he looked at my Bible, he then looked at me and said "well, how can you interpret it like that, when it`s written in plain English right here word for word?". I said "look, think about it for a minute, your talking about something that was written almost two thousand years ago, in a different culture and in a different language and was meant for people who had liittle or no education at that time, and then was translated into different languages how many different times from that point on?'. Well it went further then that but, anyway, he said "well, I need to go back home and think about all the things you said and check them out with the good book".

He asked me if i would allow him to come back and discuss it further. I told him no problem. He asked me what I thought about how he interpreted the book. I told him i had no problem what so ever in his version of it, that we are all free to think and believe as we want. He said"would you think about my interpretation of it?" I told him I was open minded enough to do that.

He was the first of four to discuss it with me, and each time, they wanted me to be open minded enough to think about their version of it, never the other way around. It`s not that I am out to knock someone elses way of thinking, because they are free to think how they want. But, what bothers me, is, we always have to be the open minded ones because from their view point, we don`t know any better, never the other way around. We are not to have a closed mind to their belief, but it`s ok for them to have a closed mind to ours.

Well for those who think i`m wrong, yes, I do believe in God, I just don`t take everything written in the Bible literally like some do.





[edit on 28-12-2008 by FiatLux]