Two million year old find!

Originally posted by Sliick
ummm.....wow. just wow. we went from sumeria being the birthplace of civilization 6000 years old, to 2 million year old artifacts in a cave.

I'm thinking Homonoids, not Homosapiens. I don't think we ran around for almost 2 million years without thinking of building a city.

GREAT FIND!!!!

whose to say there were no cities 2 million years ago. . . . in geological terms alot can happen to a land scape in 2 million years. Theres alot of undisturbed strata left to be searched so dont be surprised if theres more finds like this in the future and possibly in the past. For example there is a city in Central America known as tiajuanaco that is at least 12 thousand years old... a far cry from 2 million yes but alot older than the accepted 6 thousand year old birth of civilization.

Data Rejection: Inconvenient Dating in Mexico

Then there is the high-profile case of Dr Virginia Steen-McIntyre,
a geologist working for the US Geological Survey (USGS), who was dispatched to an
archaeological site in Mexico to date a group of artifacts in the 1970s. This travesty
also illustrates how far established scientists will go to guard orthodox tenets.

McIntyre used state-of-the-art equipment and backed up her results by using four different methods, but
her results were off the chart. The lead archaeologist expected a date of 25,000 years or less, and the
geologist's finding was 250,000 years or more.

The figure of 25,000 years or less was critical to the Bering Strait "crossing" theory, and it was the
motivation behind the head archaeologist's tossing Steen-McIntyre's results in the circular file and asking
for a new series of dating tests. This sort of reaction does not occur when dates match the expected
chronological model that supports accepted theories.

Steen-McIntyre was given a chance to retract her conclusions, but she refused. She found it hard
thereafter to get her papers published and she lost a teaching job at an American university.

There is alot of scientific evidence that is just so far off the accepted "norm" that it utterly ignored.

Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp-South Africa, where some of the spheres are housed, explains: ‘The spheres are a complete mystery. They look man-made, yet at the time in Earth's history when they came to rest in this rock no intelligent life existed’.

These South African grooved spheres…were found in mineral deposits, 2.8 billion years old. So, who/what manufactured them? What intelligent beings/advanced civilization/or ‘Outer Space Visitors’ are responsible?

At least 200 of these Spheroids have been found…extracted out of deep rock at the Wonderstone Silver Mine in South Africa. On average…they are 1-4 inches in diameter, AND COMPOSED OF A NICKEL-STEEL ALLOY THAT DOESN'T OCCUR NATURALLY.

www.irishufology.net...

There is undoubtedly a huge misunderstanding of earths "Civilized" history... wether or not its a purposeful coverup or plain human denial is another argument.

A list of the 15 oldest cities in the history of the world with dates.
15 Oldest Cities


1. Gaziantep, Turkey 3650 B.C.?

2. Jerusalem, Israel 3000 B.C.?

3. Kirkuk, Iraq 3000 B.C.?

4. Zurich, Switzerland 3000 B.C.?

5. Konya, Turkey 2600 B.C.?

6. Giza, Egypt before2568 B.C.

7. Sian, China 2205 B.C.?

8. Asyut, Egypt before 2160 B.C.

8. Luxor, Egypt before 2160 B.C.

10. Shaohing, China 2000 B.C.?

11. Lisbon, Portugal 2000 B.C.?

11. Porto, Portugal 2000 B.C.?

13. Loyang, China 1900 B.C.?

14. Amman, Jordan 17th century B.C.?

15. Ankara, Turkey 17th century B.C.?

Anyone notice anything wrong here? No Jerico no Napta Playa. Even this list is very wrong and these arent even hard to find material on

10th millennium bp sites are known from a number of areas in Egypt and the eastern Sahara, including the southern Western Desert, Siwa, Farafra, the Gilf Kebir, the Libyan Acacus and the Air Massif in Niger (McDonald 2001, p.28). In the Western Desert, the desert areas were reoccupied from around 9500bp at Napta Playa (a hiatus of some 2500 years). The earliest occupation in other parts of Egypt are represented the Epipalaeolithic industries along the Nile valley at El Kab and in the Faiyum Depression (the Elkabian and Qarunian respectively), which begin at around 8000bp. For more information about the Epipalaeolithic of Egypt,

www.wadi.cd2.com...






[edit on 20-12-2008 by constantwonder]

reply to post by constantwonder


The other problem, besides erosion and deposition, is that the further back in time you go, the more rudimentary and destructable buildings were. Very hard to decipher a rock that was used in a wall from a rock that wasn't, unless it was shaped. Even now there are civilisations that build their towns from clay and sticks.
You might find 3 stone structures in the center of a city, and think it a small town, when in reality, they were just the main the buildings of a city surrounded by maybes hundreds of weak, easilly made/easilly destroyed structures. If those 3 main buildings are hidden, you have virtually no chance of finding the out about the rest.
I would guess that in order for their to be a city, there would have to be agriculture, but again, it would be rudimentary, and not easilly spottable - especially after 50,000 years of deposition on top of it.

Check this blog page out:
Has a link to bitumen use in tools by neanderthals.
Blog page has a lot of good links to info.


[edit on 20-12-2008 by cruzion]

Why do you suppose that there is always an argument against dating methods including carbon dating whenever the methods prove an artifact to be older than it should be abd therefore not in line with the institutions accepted theory of evolution ... ? Ah but remember it is just a theory...........

I found this,

www.sciencedaily.com...

sorry if someone already posted it, I tried looking through the posting.

The oldest known stone tools from sites in Ethiopia date to 2.4 million years.

reply to post by Sliick


you should check out www.thecrowhouse.com earths forbidden secrets

Originally posted by cruzion
reply to post by constantwonder

 

The other problem, besides erosion and deposition, is that the further back in time you go, the more rudimentary and destructable buildings were. Very hard to decipher a rock that was used in a wall from a rock that wasn't, unless it was shaped. Even now there are civilisations that build their towns from clay and sticks.
You might find 3 stone structures in the center of a city, and think it a small town, when in reality, they were just the main the buildings of a city surrounded by maybes hundreds of weak, easilly made/easilly destroyed structures. If those 3 main buildings are hidden, you have virtually no chance of finding the out about the rest.
I would guess that in order for their to be a city, there would have to be agriculture, but again, it would be rudimentary, and not easilly spottable - especially after 50,000 years of deposition on top of it.

Howdy Cruzon

I've started a thread on that very subject at the Ancient and Lost civilizations.

About the Klerksdorp Spheres:
en.wikipedia.org...

They are not what they are made out to be, and are certainly not evidence of a ancient civilization.

The various claims that these objects are either "perfectly round" or perfect spheres is now known to be incorrect as directly observed by Heinrich. These specimens vary widely in shape, from noticeably flattened spheres to distinct disks. As illustrated by Heinrich, some of the Klerksdorp "spheres" are inter grown with each other, like a mass of soap bubbles. The observations and figure refute claims that these objects are either always spherical or isolated in their occurrence. As noted by Heinrich, even grooved spheres are not perfect spheres and some consist of inter grown spheres.

Modern man is about 10,000 years old, so 2 million would be more like monkeys. I highly doubt our early ancestors would have the ability to communicate with pictures, have tools, or even fire. If they were able to do all that then what the hell have we been doing these past 2 million years?

People have no concept just what 2 million years means in evolution terms, and so they will throw around millions of years as if they were a mere ten thousand.


[edit on 20-12-2008 by Xtrozero]

Is anyone familiar with whether they've found any skeletal remains in the cave in the past? Tell me there's a body.
The story sounds too good to be true.

I'll repost this for Harte

A Pdf file on this site, well named wonderwerk

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Modern man is about 10,000 years old, so 2 million would be more like monkeys. I highly doubt our early ancestors would have the ability to communicate with pictures, have tools, or even fire. If they were able to do all that then what the hell have we been doing these past 2 million years?

People have no concept just what 2 million years means in evolution terms, and so they will throw around millions of years as if they were a mere ten thousand.


[edit on 20-12-2008 by Xtrozero]

10k years huh... have you ever looked at any evidence showing modern man to be 10 thousand years old? Actually we can trace genetic eve back to 140 thousand years ago. And where is thie missing link.... you can not argue that man descended from monkeys when their are huge gaps in the evolutionary ladder.

Human mitochondrial DNA (inherited only from one's mother) and Y chromosome DNA (from one's father) show coalescence at around 140,000 and 60,000 years ago respectively. In other words, all living humans' female line ancestry trace back to a single female (Mitochondrial Eve) at around 140,000 years ago. Via the male line, all humans can trace their ancestry back to a single male (Y-chromosomal Adam) at around 60,000 years ago.[2]

However, such coalescence is genetically expected and does not, in itself, indicate a population bottleneck, because mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome are only a small part of the entire genome, and are atypical in that they are inherited exclusively through the mother or through the father, respectively. Most genes in the genome are inherited from either father or mother, thus can be traced back in time via either matrilinear or patrilinear ancestry.[3] Research on many (but not necessarily most) genes find different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 0 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e. a single breeding pair).[4][5]

This is consistent with the Toba catastrophe theory which suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to c.15,000 individuals[5] when the Toba supervolcano in Indonesia erupted and triggered a major environmental change. The theory is based on geological evidences of sudden climate change, and on coalescence evidences of some genes (including mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome and some nuclear genes)[6] and the relatively low level of genetic variation with humans.[5]

en.wikipedia.org...

Now who's to say this event wasnt like the collapse of rome leading to thousands of years of "dark ages". In 2 million years a fairly complex sophisticated civilization could have risen and fallen with enough geologic time afterwards to completely erase thier tracks.

Now im not trying to prove that there were advanced civilkizations 2 million years ago. I only wish for people to remain open minded. In geologic terms are planet has been through many many changes that could doom civilizations present at the time. The opening chapter in human history is very mysterious. No one agrees on when, few agree on where, and now one even knows how it all began.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by constantwonder]

Originally posted by constantwonder

Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp-South Africa, where some of the spheres are housed, explains: ‘The spheres are a complete mystery. They look man-made, yet at the time in Earth's history when they came to rest in this rock no intelligent life existed’.

These South African grooved spheres…were found in mineral deposits, 2.8 billion years old. So, who/what manufactured them? What intelligent beings/advanced civilization/or ‘Outer Space Visitors’ are responsible?

At least 200 of these Spheroids have been found…extracted out of deep rock at the Wonderstone Silver Mine in South Africa. On average…they are 1-4 inches in diameter, AND COMPOSED OF A NICKEL-STEEL ALLOY THAT DOESN'T OCCUR NATURALLY.

Petrographic and X-Ray diffraction analyses of specimens of these objects Heinrich[10][11] found that they consist either of hematite (Fe2O3) or wollastonite (CaSiO3) mixed with minor amounts of hematite and goethite (FeOOH). Observations by Cairncross[8] and Nel and others[12] indicated that many of the Klerksdorp "Spheres" found in unaltered pyrophyllite consist of pyrite (FeS2).

No sign of steel or nickel.

Geologists[8][9][10][11], agree that the Klerksdorp "Spheres" originated as concretions, which formed in volcanic sediments, ash, or both, after they accumulated 3.0 billion years ago. Heinrich[10][11] argues that the wollastonite nodules formed by the metamorphism of carbonate concretions in the presence of silica-rich fluids generated during the metamorphism of the volcanic deposits containing them into pyrophyllite. It was also argued that the hematite nodules represent pyrite concretions oxidized by weathering of near surface pyrophyllite deposits.

They may look artificial but they are not.

Additionally, Roelf Marx, as quoted in Cairncross[8] and Pope and Cairncross[16], former curator of the Klerksdorp Museum, reports that he was misquoted in regards to these objects.

en.wikipedia.org...

As observed by Cairncross (1988), the numerous, often spherical and sub-spherical and grooved, objects, which have been recovered from the Wonderstone mines near Ottosdal are classical examples of natural concretions. The real importance of these concretions is their age. Being about 3000 to 3100 million years old (3.0 – 3.2 billion) they are among the oldest known identifiable concretions yet found. These concretions, if studied in detailed, might provide additional knowledge about the paleoenvironment at a time in Earth’s distant Precambrian prehistory, from which little evidence has survived.

www.onlineminerals.com...


[edit on 12/20/2008 by Phage]

[edit on 12/20/2008 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage


Hey, let the fellow respond to it before you show that he didn't read the material. There's a lot more nonsense on the Spheres than truth.
I have to admit, I'm sort of surprised, though, of how many times I've run across threads posting these objects and similar ones in the past month.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Modern man is about 10,000 years old, so 2 million would be more like monkeys.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by Xtrozero]

Try 20+ million.
Tree
Look at the proconsulids.
Data
Wiki

Originally posted by constantwonder
10k years huh... have you ever looked at any evidence showing modern man to be 10 thousand years old? Actually we can trace genetic eve back to 140 thousand years ago. And where is thie missing link.... you can not argue that man descended from monkeys when their are huge gaps in the evolutionary ladder.

My post is more about tools than to argue human DNA.


Well I guess what you consider modern man and what I'm say it is are two different ways we are defining it, and I guess I need to define mine little bit more, (Modern man as in passing the hunter/gatherer stage more or less) but this wasn’t really my point.

For who we are today is about 200,000 years at best old, and to continue to push that back to the 2 million years point we have a very different ancestor in their abilities.

Oldowan tools have been found as far back as 1 million years ago, and some believe they go back much farther to maybe 2 million, but that is a guess that I do not believe in since evidence show 1 million to 1.5 million at best.

Also up until 200,000 years ago these tools were basically chipped rock to form a crud edge, so to say tools, it is like saying something that is a little bit better than using a rock to smash as a tool. Earlier than 200,000 years ago these chipped tools started to finally become more advanced.

This is consistent with the Toba catastrophe theory which suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to c.15,000 individuals

Now who's to say this event wasnt like the collapse of rome leading to thousands of years of "dark ages". In 2 million years a fairly complex sophisticated civilization could have risen and fallen with enough geologic time afterwards to completely erase thier tracks.

When you look at we branched off from the chimps at about 5 million years ago you would need something other than humans to rabidly advance at a much faster rate to be this advance race and then die out. As I said above when you look at tools up to from 200,00 to 1 million years ago they are crudely chipped rock, and this is much farther in our past than the human choke points in our history.

Now im not trying to prove that there were advanced civilkizations 2 million years ago. I only wish for people to remain open minded. In geologic terms are planet has been through many many changes that could doom civilizations present at the time. The opening chapter in human history is very mysterious. No one agrees on when, few agree on where, and now one even knows how it all began.

I'm open minded, but it would need to have been an Atlantis type scenario of a very small and isolated situation, and as I said it would most likely not have even been human but another branch. These are a lot of “ifs” for me to do anything but speculate for amusement.




[edit on 21-12-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by cruzion

Try 20+ million.

I don't understand your 20+ million, or is this like my first post were I suggest that people say millions with really no concept what a million years is in evolution.

Well looking at your chart we were chimps way up towards the top at about 4 to 5 million years ago, we were Gorillas 3 million years before that. So at about 2 million years ago we were a couple of millions years removed from the chimps. If it took 3 million to go from gorilla to chimps, what would humans looks like 2 million years removed from the chimps…I would say we were still monkey like in our ways and much of our looks. Lucy is what 1.4 million years old and looks more like a chimp than human...



[edit on 21-12-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Harte
People have been excavating and classifying their findings from this cave for decades.

This recent announcement, if it holds up, really pushes the timeline back though. From what I've read, earlier finds there dated to at most a "mere" million years ago.

Here's a link to a PDF about this excellent site.

Obviously, the occupants were not Homo Sapiens, so I don't exactly understand the comment about Sumer.

In addition, no evidence of any civilization has been found in or around the cave, so, again, why is a poster comparing this with Mesopotamia?

Harte

Yeah getting excited about a subspecies of human and comparing it to the first civilization in Sumeria is silly.