Russian warships bound for Cuba in new show of strength

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
reply to post by jibeho

 

To say the U.S has no reason to want control of Venezuala is probaly the most ludricous thing I have heard in many years lol Please educate yourself.. and stop looking at things differently just because you are American...

Venezuela coup linked to Bush teamSpecialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged
www.guardian.co.uk...

Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot about that little attempt to oust Chavez. The jury is still out who was behind it. The US definitely knew that trouble was brewing in that area. That was six years ago and my memory is fading.
www.mundoandino.com...

www.germane-software.com...
Interesting articles on Communism and Capitalism.

(3) ships from the Russian Navy sailing into Cuba don't mean much.

However, it is high time the US took some kind of moral upper hand in this world of ours (ours not meaning the US's world, ours as in this planet we all live on). The US foreign policies of the past hold no ground in the future.

I am waiting to see if Barack Obama is the foreign policy man that I hope he is.



[edit on 16-12-2008 by wdkirk]

[edit on 16-12-2008 by wdkirk]

Originally posted by blueorder Your narrow view is your business...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck So go to Cuba, and tell me what you find there.

People in a one party communist state who cannot speak freely

Well now, you accuse me of having a narrow view. As far as I'm concerned, you can chose to consider my comments or dismiss them, but you are in no position to argue their veracity because, near as I can make out, you weren't in the room so you are taking me on from a position of ignorance. Isn't that what this site seeks to remedy?

The reason I am asking about your background is that any knucklehead can issue a polemic based on something they read in a book or on the net. If I am going to be challenged on my own personal experience and observation, I'd like to know if there is a personal or emotional factor attached to another's argument before I choose dismiss it as mere dogma. If you had people slaughtered in the revolution, then my observations in the 21'st century won't molify your thoughts on the matter and justifiably so.

If not, then I fall back on my original position. Cubans would rather play baseball than hockey. They just don't want the away team to supply all of the rules and refs. If you want to call me on what was communicated to me as a average Cuban worldview, then go there and ask for yourself.

If neither circumstance applies, then put me on ignore.

Wow, there is so much to consider here it makes my head spin.

Looking at the whole picture, from the outside -

u.s.A. Is in quite a precarious place right now. Pollitically, we are getting rid of a president that has little respect, and getting a president that has no experience when it comes to crises. Financially, I dont think i need to expand on that AT ALL. However, the one thing I have learned from the older generations is that the military gets more recruits during troubled financial times. Its a guaranteed food in you/rs belly, and shoes on your feet. Not to mention medical benifits. Hard to beat when you are broke, cold, and hungry. The overall spirit of Americans is down right now. Everyone is becoming less charitable, less united. I dont think we have ever been this divided. On the other hand there seems to always be that sibling like comradery.

Russia, Venesuala, Cuba, _________(insert any number of countries here) have hated us for a long time. Vengeance, jealousy, greed, hunger, they are all big motivaters. Mother Russia is a woman scorned. The only time a woman scorned will sit quietly on her hands and do nothing is when she is planning her next move on the chess board.

The best way to gain a country as an ally is by turning them into addicts first (something I see in common with a lot of the countries they are befriending). Then offer them anything they want especially if it has the bonus of flipping tables.

We know little of what either side is truely capable of.

We also know that 'nothing' isnt going to happen. Im not saying that we are heading for war right now, but allies are being bought, lines are being drawn. THAT is not 'nothing'. Eventually, these big gorillas beating their chests are going to go at it.

I think we are all quite aware that it will be sticks and stones after that.

Quick question for all of you, where did the ship go that was docked in Panama scheduled to leave on the 10th????

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Wow, there is so much to consider here it makes my head spin.

Looking at the whole picture, from the outside - ...
Russia, Venesuala, Cuba, _________(insert any number of countries here) have hated us for a long time.

Once again, I have never seen any evidence that 'Cuba...has hated' the US. The official stand is that they aren't real tickled that the CIA has tried to bump off Castro, but everybody I have talked to would love to normalise realations with the Americans. Hell, you guys seem to do allright with China, and quite frankly their Great Socialist Experiment scares me a lot more than Chavez and Castro.

Of course they hate us.

We are their number one threat.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Of course they hate us.

We are their number one threat.

Sigh...lay off the koolaide, go to Toronto and book a flight to Havana.
Then come back and talk to me.

Ok.....what the hell was that supposed to mean?

Stay off the koolaid? um seriously?

Since I'm not going to Havana sir wise and all knowing, please fill me in on why that was such a silly thing to say.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Ok.....what the hell was that supposed to mean?

Stay off the koolaid? um seriously?

Since I'm not going to Havana sir wise and all knowing, please fill me in on why that was such a silly thing to say.

Ok, the koolaide reference goes back to the whole Jonestown, Peoples' Church thing when people 'drank the (cyanide-laced) koolaide' as instructed by the cult leader, and all who didn't were murdered.

It involves the concept of accepting the...whatever...party line...as told, unquestioningly.

So don't unquestioningly believe the Cubans hate you because you are told that. Rather, consider why somebody would say otherwise? Where is their argument coming from...who is lying to you? why? and if so, then what else are they lying about. All I can say is that I've been to Cuba, and the folks I met like Americans...political intrigues notwithstanding.

And if you want to know more, go to Cuba.

Seriously though, we are their number one threat.
Why?
Because they are a threat to us.
Why?

Geography. Plain and simple. If someone wanted to attack us, they would need Cuba, Mexico, or Canada. Cuba being the most logical choice, again because of Geography.

I do not hate Cubans, I am sure there are many Cubans who dont hate us. Warm cuddly feelings have absolutly nothing to do with this. There is no conspiracy.

It comes down to two things, Geography, and self preservation.

Originally posted by mrsdudara

Seriously though, we are their number one threat.
Why?
Because they are a threat to us.
Why? It comes down to two things, Geography, and self preservation.

Proximity means nothing. May as well declare war on the Bahamas.

Why is Cuba a threat, but China is has 'most favored trading status'. I thought Commies were the enemy.

Do you not notice that something doesn't add up here?

Who is lying to you, and why?

Originally posted by sadchild01

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by sadchild01

 

Actually, in the case of war, the Russian bombers would be shot down 1000 miles from US forces.

Also, think about it, the US allowed Russian bombers to over fly felt operations and Chinese subs to pop up in the middle of them.

Now the Overly arrogant Russians/Chinese think they can have their way.

What would happen is the US would use its real capabilities and Russian/Chinese attackers would be destroyed faster than they could say, opps, we were..."BOOM".

BS from you , the tu-22m3 is supersonic long range bomber armed with 500km range kh-22 supersonic/hypersonic cruise missiles ,forget it , US surface navy will be destroyed in 48 hours

What would happen is the US would use its real capabilities and Russian/Chinese attackers would be destroyed faster than they could say, opps, we were..."BOOM".

real capabilites ??? BS....

the true power of US navy is in its nuclear submarines not surface fleet

Seriously the dumbest people i've met when it comes to military tech are Russians. Super secret great soviet military. Yet they can't stop their poorly trained conscripts from surrendering to Cechen rebels, nor the abuse by older conscripts. Stop it.

reply to post by hadjimagnet


Russia has won the chechen war already and also the georgian war, while USA is not being able to handle Afghanistan and Iraq and the war has cost trillions and brought the american empire on the brink of collapse

Couple of things here:

The Russians scraped up enough ships that could make the journey.

I do agree its no different than NATO expanding into eastern europe.

This was hardly a a CBG doing flight ops on the edge of US waters.

No doubt there are multiple SSN's stalking the flotilla watching its every move.

The implosion of the Russian economy and the collapse of oil prices means it may be awhile before we see this again.

Originally posted by sadchild01
reply to post by hadjimagnet

 

Russia has won the chechen war already and also the georgian war, while USA is not being able to handle Afghanistan and Iraq and the war has cost trillions and brought the american empire on the brink of collapse

What war? There is no war in Iraq since May 1, 2003 when George Bush declared military victory over Iraq. Iraq is an occupied territory and the media keep brainwashing the populace that the armed, hostile Iraqi civilians are regular Iraqi army resisting US troops. It's easy to redefine the term "war," because it refers to an armed conflict.

Russians couldn't "win" their "war" in Afghanistan, because they were fighting armed civilians. The same applies for the US involvement in Iraq. Once the US troops are gone from Iraq, the pro-American government there falls. There is no other way.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Russia, Venesuala, Cuba, _________(insert any number of countries here) have hated us for a long time.

See, I find statements like this amusing.

The average Russian/Cuban/Venuzuelan/Nicaraguan doesn't wake up every day thinking "I hate the USA"

Thing is, you've been told they do, and you swallowed it all hook line and sinker.

Why have you been told they do? Because it suits US foreign policy for you to think so. The US is the dominant power in the region and its far far easier to label states that don't tow the line as "problematical" than it is to accept their difference and let them make up their own minds as to what they want to do.

Heres a little history lesson for you that might help get my point across.

Whether you like it or not, the simple fact is that the Cuban revolution was bought about because of exploitation of Cubans by a US backed dictator. (same reason as the Iranian one..). Subsequent attempts by the CIA to drive Cuba back under the US sphere of influence (The Bay of Pigs invasion is one such attempt) drove the Cubans to find strong allies and they chose to set up shop with Russia because of similar "communistic" priniciples (although Soviet Communism and Cuban Communism were not the same thing in many ways).

The US prompted a diplomatic retaliation by the Soviets by installing IRBM's in Izmir in Turkey with the range to reach Moscow, so the Soviets - utilizing their allies in the same way that the US utilized the Turks, put missile in Cuba as a counterbalance.

In the ensuing events, the Soviets backed down first, whilst the US missiles stayed in place until much later, when they were covertly removed.

Now thats genuine history.

Who has recourse to distrust who the most there? I would venture that the Russians had more to worry about than the US did, because the US missiles in Turkey were in place and active before the missile crisis in Cuba

I would venture that the Cubans who had removed their dictator and wanted to get on with their own business had an awful lot of distrust for the US which continued to try and destabilise their government, and then, when unsuccessful spat the dummy and embargoed the whole damn country. (Did Russia do the same to Turkey? Nope.)

Go back to your statement now, bearing those things in mind, and put yourself in the position of a Russian, or a Cuban, knowing those things. I bet they're thinking exactly the same about you.

[edit on 16/12/08 by neformore]

reply to post by jibeho


you are so wrong man ! you need to read more what the americans are doing in the americas !

they are starting conflicts everywhere ! i really really hope someday someone crazy guy with a nuke bomb puts you americans where you belong ! out of this planet

Oh come on, neformore, did you read all my posts or did you stop at that one line?

Did you notice that you totaly contradicted yourself in your post?

The first line, you state in quite a condecending way that Im a sucker for believing that Venesuala, Russia, Cuba hate us. Then you go right into a history lesson explaining why they should hate us.

What exactly is your standpoint here? Are you a fish who believe they hate us, or a person who has looked at the facts and believe they....um...really dont like us very much at all?

As I stated, they have good reason to not like us very much at all. We are a threat to them for all the reasons you posted in your wonderfull history lesson.

Originally posted by mrsdudara We are a threat to them for all the reasons you posted in your wonderfull history lesson.

You can't just keep pulling opinions out of your keister and presenting them as fact. Just because you figure we...well, you, actually...oughtta be regarded as a threat doesn't mean that they neccessarily follow through.

Go there. Talk to folks, then come back and tell me what's what.