Shamanic Initiation = UFO Abduction

I just had an interesting thought. What if the abduction experience, or experiences in the paranormal were direct effects from a malfunction or leak if you will, of '___' administered from the pineal gland. We all know that upon death the pineal gland dumps all the natural '___' into our system. What if some people have a slight disorder of this gland that injects too much or "leaks" '___' when it shouldn't?


So in theory what if "abduction experiences" were caused by a very small or depending on the individual a large secretion of natural '___' from the pineal gland. To me it makes perfect sense, but then again I am not an "experiancer".

It makes sense because when we are roused from a sleeping state... our pineal gland helps re-route our consciousness from sub- to full consciousness. Is this not when most "abductee's" have or recall an abduction experience? So keeping in line with that theory.. I think some serious research into this possibility should be initiated.


Abduction or paranormal experiences seem ultra vivid and surreal. So could they be attributed to natural '___' leak?

To critics, misinterpretation of shamanic initiation experiences is just as implausible as alien abductions

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I'd agree with it if you said 'misinterpretation' is just as 'plausible' as alien abductions. I'd say its much more likely.

It's all the product of a fantasy prone personality, and actually begs the question "is shamanism real?" But to the abductee/contactee, their experience(s) make it far more plausible than just a hallucination or "shamanic rights of passage".

People have had visitations from Angels, I believe in Angels even less than I believe in Aliens abducting people.

Conciousness itself is based in fantasy, we tell ourselves and each other stories. Its how we share information, and I'd go so far as to say how we exist.

I don't believe these places are alternate Universes, unless you're including alternative brain states. Why do we need to make up additional ideas?

Also, don't think for one moment that a forced '___' trip would be anything other than that. It may have little in common with an endogenous release of '___'. No doubt when the source is our own bodies, it would be a mix of chemicals and not a pure '___' experience.

Regardless whether you think its possible to have 'your' experience from a chemical originating from within you, you have to acknowledge that psychosis can make people believe and experience almost anything. If you've not had an experience with '___', then you can't back either side of the argument. Then even if you have, you can't recreate the endogenous experience. All I can suggest is people read others experiences of a forced experience, especially involving 'self-transforming machine elves', a term coined by the late Terrence McKenna. Many many experiences come across these same hallucinations. Now I'm not saying theres a hidden realm, except metaphorically and psychologically, because that is inventing things to backup a crazy theory!

I've had many experiences involving different mindsets, and some were easily identifiable as pseudo-hallucinations. But I've also had one or two experiences where I've caught my brain going from point A to point C in 30 seconds, without having any information on the path to take. My brain literally made up the events that went on between A and C, and it felt real and almost caused a massive argument. Now I've not been abducted by aliens, but for someone without these experieces or knowledge, they will believe it really happened til they die.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

Originally posted by Alter-Ego
I just had an interesting thought. What if the abduction experience, or experiences in the paranormal were direct effects from a malfunction or leak if you will, of '___' administered from the pineal gland. We all know that upon death the pineal gland dumps all the natural '___' into our system. What if some people have a slight disorder of this gland that injects too much or "leaks" '___' when it shouldn't?


So in theory what if "abduction experiences" were caused by a very small or depending on the individual a large secretion of natural '___' from the pineal gland. To me it makes perfect sense, but then again I am not an "experiancer".

It makes sense because when we are roused from a sleeping state... our pineal gland helps re-route our consciousness from sub- to full consciousness. Is this not when most "abductee's" have or recall an abduction experience? So keeping in line with that theory.. I think some serious research into this possibility should be initiated.


Abduction or paranormal experiences seem ultra vivid and surreal. So could they be attributed to natural '___' leak?

Absolutely exactly what I'm saying!

I'm not sure where all the other tangents have come from, but it also explains ancient phenomenon too. Funnily enough, does anyone have Angel visitations or Fairie Changeling visits anymore? It seems to me they've been replaced by the modern UFO phenomenon.

Abductees should be happy. Theres a rational explanation that agrees it did really happen to them, just not in the context that they originally thought.

It also explains why abductions can reoccur to the same person, they've got a predisposition to a naturally occuring brain state. Why else would literal advanced alien race want one individual over and over?

There are clearly many questions, but the only one any scientist would be interested in is 'What evolutionary advantage do these states give, or are they a by-product of another process?'

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

reply to post by Alter-Ego


The question then would be how to explain shared experiences, such as the ones my wife and I have had, or for that matter even in the lesser sense, Biedny seeing a "cat" in my home when we don't have one (this being not long after my Mother and I seeing a black fuzzy opaque box float along the floor between us and go down the hallway). I've had plenty of shared experiences with others, which kind of negates it being internal '___' generated.


[edit on 10-12-2008 by jritzmann]

Those are not abduction phenomenon. You might as well be talking about crop circles and the weird feeling people get just before and just after they form.

If two people claim to have been abducted together, I'd call bull# on it. Apologies if that offends, but its the stance 99% of people will take.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

The quote below is from the Alien Implant thread, it was posted by Mr. Green in response to someone posting about 3 types of implants:
1. Nose - this can be actived by the Greys to allow you to breathe in places where you can't normally. (Sounds like a trip into hyperspace!)
2. Ear - so the Greys can tell you things, and activate your third eye to show you pictures (The third eye is a light receptor, it produces melatonin to help regulate sleep, and additionally probably produces '___')
3. A tracking device...

The 3rd eye is the sixth chakra and we should be able to open it at will ourselves and not be at the mercy of the greys opening it up when THEY wish. Ive had my 3rd eye completely forced open and it was painful, it lead to severe headaches and guess what was there looking at me when my 3rd eye was opened for the very first time...a Grey. What was the reason for this? It was bright white but definatly a grey. Ive tryed to convince myself it was some thing else like an enlightened buddha or grey looking spirit guide, but no it was a grey.

I also get ringing in my ears which at times is almost morse code. I have no proof for this but Ive since seen several greys in my third eye during periods where its opened and I recieve what can only be described as downloads of information. I have no control over this and almost feel like Ive been plugged into some main frame its so wierd.

So yes I totally think these implants are controlling our awarness. But as with all these things trying to prove it is near impossible.

It was bright white but definatly a grey

Conclusions: it was humanoid in form and it was white. Mr. Green then going on to say it was definately a grey is simply because of the context of the experience and also the persons cultural grounding. If this was the middle ages, I can guarantee Mr. Green would have been convinced it was an Angel.

This is someone whose had an experience and assigned some of the experience to their third eye! The pineal gland is where the '___' is the most likely secreted from. What seems to happen is people have the experience, can't relate it to anything, the mind fills in the blanks with the stories we're familiar with, and the person develops a psychosis around the experience. In many cases it seems the victim enters a paranoia about being persecuted, controlled, or being special.

Seriously, that one thread is a gold mine of information.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

Originally posted by Trojan_libido
Those are not abduction phenomenon. You might as well be talking about crop circles and the weird feeling people get just before and just after they form.

If two people claim to have been abducted together, I'd call bull# on it. Apologies if that offends, but its the stance 99% of people will take.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Trojan_libido]

Well that's a convenient way to not deal with it. Have you read about the Allagash Abductions?

Also, those ARE abduction-related phenomena. (Plus, implied but not said, some of the experiences Jeff & his wife have spoken about having together do fall into the more "classical" abduction column.)

Lastly, I don't understand the 99% of people comment. For one, what makes you say that with certainty? Have you spoken to a bunch of people about it? For two, what about a singular abduction experience is more realistic than multiple people having a shared experience, except that it's a giant wrench in your '___' leakage hypothesis?

I do suspect there's something '___'-related in this, but it might not be what's postulated here and is not the only answer. For example, it may very well be that there are beings out there who can access us via a molecule and who also use technology. Vehicles and the such. Why does it have to be one or the other? We have no idea what their science is but it's quite probable that IF there is some aspect of us that can leave our bodies or perceive beyond the normal senses someone, somewhere has built a science around that. And maybe they need to do procedures that sometimes require taking us physically and sometimes require taking only that ethereal aspect. Maybe sometimes they only need open the molecule to transmit data or what have you.

I don't have the answer(s) either but I can certainly imagine more viable options than just one or two.



[edit on 10-12-2008 by Jeremy_Vaeni]

reply to post by Jeremy_Vaeni


Or a host of others. To say they don't fall into the same "category"...wtf, we're dealing in categories and setting parameters of experiences? I don't think so.

For the record, my shared experience with the wife involved me being taken elsewhere, and her being essentially held within the vehicle. Whether or not she was also "taken elsewhere", we don't know.

reply to post by jritzmann



Well see I think we're running into the problem of having "abduction experience" being predefined by decades of research skewed to fit a cookie-cutter alien doctor scenario. We've talked before about how this stuff is vastly odder than that narrative played out by the likes of Hopkins/Jacobs and the people who've followed their lead. If you don't know that then reading about floating black boxes and apparition-like phenomena is going to look unrelated.


[edit on 10-12-2008 by Jeremy_Vaeni]

reply to post by Jeremy_Vaeni


Yeah thats really the issue. People outside the experience are conditioned to think it's such a culture bound scenario that anything outside of it doesn't make sense.

And really the general public isn't to blame. It's all they've been exposed to.

reply to post by jritzmann


Maybe its deeper than that then. Maybe.. (and this is just plain ol' on the fly conjecture) that the '___' flux or leak is just the catalyst. Allow me to explain..

Theorize for a moment that the reason "man made" '___' is illegal is the fact that with it or through it, we all have to power (using a catalyst) to manifest certain things into our perceived realities. There are many theories that conclude we ourselves are gods or because we are made from a "God" in his likeness, we automatically have this ability.. just by proxy. We are children of God, therefore we may all have godlike abilities.


When considering the biblical side of the argument whether you believe in the bible or God or not..this is an interesting scenario, follow with me ..
It is possible that this could have been the "hidden knowledge" in the garden of Eden, that we like God have the ability to shape our realities?
Is it possible that because of this trait, Lucifer was so jealous of us, and rebelled against God? Could we have the ability through a catalyst to manifest ufo's, aliens, elves or ghosts and many other phenomenon without even realizing it? Could that link be '___'? I just think it raises some fascinating questions... while Im not sticking to one conclusion just yet, I find the possibility noteworthy.


Concerning the blocking of '___' through water... does anyone have any data on that. I have had NDE. I drown at the age of 12. I recall it with perfect clarity and I feel that is partially due to the release of '___' at the time. After the initial "panic" of "HOLY CRAP IM GOING TO DIE"... I was overcome by the most complete feeling of utter peace and euphoria I have ever felt... that I now believe was due to the release of '___' after my brain "died" from lack of oxygen/blood. Now keeping that in mind, even far after that ( I must have been under water for several minutes) after I lost "consciousness" I could still think.. I was "aware" that I could still think even thought my body was gone..my eyes could not see.. and it was a bright sunny day!! I was in utter darkness.

I could see no lights or color, no beings be they angels, aliens or pixies... I was just floating in black star-less space. I was not "afraid" and I remember every second of it... though my vision blacked out (lost consciousness) my sub-conscious was still very much active. While my body was "dead" my sub-conscious was NOT. I remember looking all around in this darkness thinking to myself.. "this isn't so bad... this isn't so bad at all!" still having the feelings of utter peace... then after a while though still euphoric, I decided it was boring and wanted to go back.. and when I did.. I awoke on the side of the pool choking and gagging having just been the recipient of CPR.

My point of this is, did the release of '___' allow me to change the circumstances of my watery demise...? Did I will my "consciousness" or make it manifest into reality, just by thinking it (using '___' as a catalyst)? Or was it just a VERY lucky chain of events that led to my survival?


And being that I drown in water.. did that dilute the effects of the '___' or does it have to be more invasive.. like actually interrupt the internal flow from the pineal gland itself? I would assume the latter but Im am no biologist... anyone have any answers?


I wanted to edit to say that I do agree with Jeremy and Jeff on this. The "abduction" issue is so complex that we cannot put it into a box and try and say "This is what it is"...it could very well be many, many things.. I am just offering some possibilities to contemplate. Great discussion everyone, I love to learn new stuff...or at the very least ponder new theories.



[edit on 10-12-2008 by Alter-Ego]

How do we know that religion wasn't based on '___' experiences? how do we know that anything we are told in any belief system wasn't due to psychedelic drugs?

In regards to abductions I am not questioning anybody that says they have been abducted for me the experience is as real as my partner sitting next to me.

Originally posted by franspeakfree
How do we know that religion wasn't based on '___' experiences? how do we know that anything we are told in any belief system wasn't due to psychedelic drugs?

Because that underestimates our own natural access to different "levels" of consciousness (or whatever the right word is) that are available through processes such as meditation, deep prayer, and whatever Whirling Dervish twirls accomplish. Granted these may be activating '___' production in us (and morphine, by the way), thus triggering the same effects, but I think there are far too many legitimate, effective meditation/yoga instructions that produce visions, rich emotional responses, etc. to reduce belief systems to psychedelic consumption.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Jeremy_Vaeni]

Originally posted by Trojan_libido

Conciousness itself is based in fantasy, we tell ourselves and each other stories. Its how we share information, and I'd go so far as to say how we exist.

You've come to the conclusion that consciousness is based on fantasy because we tell each other stories? Sure, we have various forms of communication which often relies on analogy, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it fantasy. And we do more than tell stories; we drive cars, pilot airplanes, cook food over fire, use power tools, etc. Sure would be a dangerous world if everyone performing these tasks were living in their own fantasy. And if this is fantasy, then I should question that I am actually sitting here drinking a cup of coffee, typing on the keyboard to some figment of my imagination. Are you refering to the idea of consentual reality?

Originally posted by Trojan_libido

I don't believe these places are alternate Universes, unless you're including alternative brain states.

Key word... you don't believe. There for it doesn't exist?

Originally posted by Trojan_libido

Why do we need to make up additional ideas?

Indeed. If someone experiences something why must we say they didn't? Because it doesn't fit into our own model of reality... or should I say fantasy? If the information they've gathered is testable and turns out to be an unknown fact, does it matter where or how the info was gathered from, whether it be channeling, shamanism, abduction/contact, witchcraft, remote viewing, science, deduction/induction, etc?

Also, just because we know that some people who've reported abnormal experiences were under the influence of a mind altering drug or induced state, does not mean that all people who've reported abnormal experiences were under the influence of a mind altering drug or induced state.

I'm not trying to knock you down, (I think the idea you've posted is just as valid as any other one concerning this subject). These are just a few points to consider before discounting the possibility that the abduction/contactee "phenomenon" is real.


edit to clean up the quotes

[edit on 10-12-2008 by Flux8]

Concerning the blocking of '___' through water

Water will not pass the blood-brain barrier, even if you've been submerged for hours. Also, in the article I posted by Rick Strassman, it states the interesting thing about '___' is it does not create a tolerance, and theres no known way to block it.

For two, what about a singular abduction experience is more realistic than multiple people having a shared experience, except that it's a giant wrench in your '___' leakage hypothesis?

Lets be fair here, I'm talking about real experiences, the few that pass lie detector tests. If two people have an experience together, you have two peoples views. Ive seen too many hoaxes perpetrated by couples and buddies that I do automatically exclude them. Show me a high profile double abduction and I'll mull it over again.

The problem is a UFO experience can be anything from lights in the sky, to missing time. Interestingly, the white noise coming through the radio in a vehicle in a typical encounter can also be explained by the effects of '___'. Just before you go into a full blown experience, you hear a rush of white noise rising around you as reality tears. This is a known effect of the stronger hallucinogens.

Or a host of others. To say they don't fall into the same "category"...wtf, we're dealing in categories and setting parameters of experiences? I don't think so.

By stating its a UFO experience, you already categorised it.

For the record, my shared experience with the wife involved me being taken elsewhere, and her being essentially held within the vehicle. Whether or not she was also "taken elsewhere", we don't know.

I'd like to read the full story, not to ridicule you or throw away your own experiences as a hoax, but to offer possible alternatives.

but I think there are far too many legitimate, effective meditation/yoga instructions that produce visions, rich emotional responses, etc. to reduce belief systems to psychedelic consumption.

Well if you've managed to activate '___' and/or actual enlightenment through these methods then more power to you. What you're saying is other methods of seeing visions shouldn't be put down to '___'. So you're saying these other methods are real, and should be taken as 'God' or real 'Angels' speaking to a person? I'd rather leave the religious comments out to be honest, although I like to talk about them, its diluting the focus.

You've come to the conclusion that consciousness is based on fantasy because we tell each other stories? Sure, we have various forms of communication which often relies on analogy, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it fantasy. And we do more than tell stories; we drive cars, pilot airplanes, cook food over fire, use power tools, etc. Sure would be a dangerous world if everyone performing these tasks were living in their own fantasy. And if this is fantasy, then I should question that I am actually sitting here drinking a cup of coffee, typing on the keyboard to some figment of my imagination. Are you refering to the idea of consentual reality?

Even our bodies tell us stories, you have to realise that you don't experience reality directly! This is a whole other topic, but our classical 5 senses are crude instruments at best. We literally create a thread of meaning from our worlds around us, and that thread is a story, which is where the word 'History' comes from.

If you've studied a little about perception and such, you'll know that the brain fills in the blanks from what it expects to be there. When you are missing information, your brain literally makes it up. Its similar to people seeing faces on Mars, in coffee swirls, Jesus on toast etc. Its biologically important to identify friend or foe, which is why we subconsciously look for faces first.

I don't believe these places are alternate Universes, unless you're including alternative brain states.

Key word... you don't believe. There for it doesn't exist?

I'm sorry for dismissing a real Alien landscape in your head, I should keep an open mind, but my ridiculous sensor isn't completely broken yet. If you notice, I've already stated it might be possible that they hybrids people experience with both Aliens and Shamanic Initiation could be being formed when we regress through our biology and connect to our DNA (which is a 'self transforming' biological entity). This is an idea from me, but has no bearing on what I've presented as that is based in reality.

If the information they've gathered is testable and turns out to be an unknown fact

I'll happily take facts from any source, if its proven and reported as such. But I'm not sure what an 'unknown fact' is, its either a fact or not.

I think what I've written stands on it's own, (no matter how much you misinterpreted/misconstrued it). Instead of sarcasm you should reinforce your argument. So far, much of what you've written is based on your beliefs, non-beliefs, minimalizing other's experiences, and using selective evidence to support your claim.


double edit because my grammar is that bad.
[edit on 11-12-2008 by Flux8]

[edit on 11-12-2008 by Flux8]

Not a bad thread on the shamanic initiations and the likes.

Have tried lots of organic compounds and they all work to varying degrees.

The only pre-requisite for enabling a life changing experience whilst using these compounds is the preparation through life and love , to grow and train your conciousness , to a level that will allow your body and mind to both physiologically and intelectually integrate and comprehend the experience in to an empowering one .

In other words , Johhny come lately will never experience the true depth , nature and astonishing personal shift in awareness that EVENTUALLY comes with the personal growth and empowerment attained by the ingestation of these compounds until they have a true understanding of themselves first .

If you don't have the neccessary hardware , you'll never get the software to work , and the beauty of the human condition is we can upgrade ourselves , if we have the courage .

I have read many accounts of traditional metaphysics masters talking about the rewards of a life of devotion to meditation and the knowing of thyself and related experiences .

Unfortunately most of us don't have, or won't allow ourselves the time to grow in to our true metaphysical selves , so it is amazing to think we can get in to some of these realms through the back door and wonder at the marvels without the lifetimes of study and discipline usually needed .

Most of us are brought up to fear the inner recesses and potential of our minds and bodies and are taught to ridicule those who believe they are worthy of mastering through any of the thousands of processes used.

I am here ONLY to say the compounds mentioned on this thread are but a few of many that will allow the lay man a glimpse in to eternity and the nature of existence , but all require the participant to have slowly escalated their intake and intensity of experiences over the preceeding years and through weaker compounds even if only recreational , although these studies seem to overlook that entirely which is why they may not be getting the true effects and power that come from these experiences , and just enough for Big pharma to squeeze a few $$ out of them .

After some serious self observation .............

I would do it thus .... a flower , a fungus , a square trunked plant , then follow your heart .....

":O)~*

reply to post by Trojan_libido


I am still not 100 percent convinced ET's exist but how does your theory explain the Mexican's airforce - UFO encounter ? The UFO's were picked up on radar.

Mexico's Defence Ministry released the images to a local journalist, Jaime Maussan, a long-time believer in flying saucers. He told a news conference on Tuesday that the objects were real and that they appeared to be "intelligent", because at one point they changed direction and surrounded the plane chasing them.

UFO footage

[edit on 13-12-2008 by destiny-fate]

reply to post by destiny-fate


Actually (and unfortunately) those UFOs have been shown to be oil wells. Here's a link:

www.alcione.org...