NDP, Bloc in coalition talks before fiscal update: tape

If working with the Bloc is treasonous now, I guess it was treasonous when the Conservatives passed the spring 2006 budget with the help of the Bloc then passed a motion that fall saying 'That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada'.


It's only treason when the Bloc is working against you.

Originally posted by unruly1
Yes you may be right but here in Canada this will be a major impact. We shall see.

Maybe some research on the other parties policies may give you some insight ie: New Democrat party will have a hayday giving away the farm and will like the Loonie to drop so they can then say see look we have created more jobs BUT .......this is all about power or the lack of it.

Canada like any other country can not afford to have instability in these times. So did it make the Dow drop........ Maybe.

I am Canadian. I was a member of the NDP when Broadbent was at the helm and Mulroney was singing duets with Reagan. I left the party when Layton got the nod, and the country shortly thereafter (no connection between the two events).

That said, you need to do your homework.

The Tories are the ones planning to "give away the farm". As in sell it. It's in the legislation they tabled last week. The same crew - both literally and ideologically are the ones who sold away Ontario - and the same crew that sold off nearly half of Canada's crown corporations under Mulroney. Things that should belong to you and me, sold without consultation. And the business community - who traditionally back the Tories are the ones who have been screaming for a lower dollar. They are the ones who resisted every attempt to raise it when it was hovering around the $0.65 USD mark because it made their businesses profitable. It hurt some sectors, like the NHL, but for the most part it was the only thing keeping Canadian businesses competitive. Bad for the treasonous cross border shopping crew, good for their employer exporting to the USA.

Back in the days of Rae, the Tories blamed the Ontario economic back hole on the NDP policies - it was laughable then, and it's laughable now. Then, it was Ontario suffering the fallout from the economic collapse of most of South East Asia on a branch-plant economy. To put the blame for the situation OR the credit for the recovery on the shoulders of someone as irrelevant to global economics as the Premier of Ontario is absurd. The same is true with the markets today. If Canada were to be so bold as to, say, halt production of all primary resources, it would cause the global markets to stutter, granted. But this? This is nothing. No One Cares. It's not nearly important enough. It's barely even news. In fact, as of this writing, it's not even newsworthy according to CNN international.The Canadian government is a small piece of a very, very big pie.

reply to post by unruly1


Hi Unruly,

I am willing to agree that the loony could be hurt, by political instability.
Normaly it would hurt. But to wich extend in this case ?

The entire world is upside down. I think everything could collapse anyday from now. Pakistan-India, new terrorist attack, Obama Birth certificate, British bankrupcy and so on.....

So I don't fear much about the economical impact of that situation, unless money power, and banking international strike back. They know so well, how to bend nations on their knees.

If it is the case, at least, You will know then who's M.harper servant is.



Jim flaherty's hint ; 25 billions from Canadian housing corpoation to banks, 50 Billions directly from the government to banks in order to buy bad real estate assets. six week after, Flaherty wants to sell real estate property in order to balance his budget. Is it not funny.

Afterall, who is going buy assets from the fed, or finance their purchases. THE SAME BAY STREET BANKS.....

Tories for the West ? really ?

Seems we're all doomed either way!

Thanks to all for your comments!

I don't beleive we are doomed in any sense. The public opinion is in favour of the conservatives even If people didn't vote for them. That's what I have seen and heard anyway on tv or on call-in radio shows. Not alot of people are really in favour of the so-called "coalition". I refer to them as an "AXIS OF EVIL". This has nothing to do about what is good for Canadians now, since the consevatives have pretty much renegged on everything that started this mess off in the first place. This is about a bunch of power hungry politicians looking for an oppurtunity to steal this election away from the Canadian people to serve their selfish interests and try to bring back their voting base by making huge expensive promises on the backs of the Canadian taxpayer. The Justice Minister is a friend of the Family and it sounds like he might not be too happy with his own party right now. I am hoping that I will be able to talk to them over the extended holiday. That's right-extended Holiday-The Conservatives are going to Prorogue Parliament in order for some people to cool off and try to get their heads together in January

My god. As an American living in Canada, I'd just like to say that the last few days have been the most entertaining political theater EVER. There are a couple things I'd like to point out for those of you who seem ignorant of your own political system, however:

1. You do not live in a Democracy. You live in a Constitutional Monarchy, or a parliamentary system, if you prefer. You do not vote for your Prime Minister, and you do not vote for which party you want to run Canada. You are voting for your Member of Parliament. The only people who voted for Stephen Harper live in Calgary. Just because the Tories were able to gain the most seats in Parliament does not mean that it is some mandate from Canada as a whole. That kind of situation happens in democracies.

2. When the Prime Minister of a Parliament loses the confidence of the house that means the rest of the Parliament no longer sees them as fit to govern, and if the Tories lose the confidence vote (which they will) your Governor General can then ask the opposition parties to form a government. This has happened in Europe many times.

I'm not quite sure what everyone was expecting when Harper attempted to virtually bankrupt all the opposition parties, and ignore the global economic meltdown. Hubris right there.

reply to post by Malynn


Thanks Malynn for your comments they are perfectly accurate.

I guess M. Harper will ask to prorogate, or shut down the parliament.

Mme Michaele Jean, as Gov.general, may refuse.

and I think she should refuse.

Of course people who support the Tories are upset, and I understand it.
But if we are to have another election, will we get any different outcome ?

I don't think so. Angry people now will still vote for the conservatives, I will still vote for the Bloc, I don't foresee NDP nor liberals switching either.

Should we have then, an election, with not much of a garantee that it will result in a governement getting a majority.

By Exacerbating the issue, maybe M. Harper think is doing ok. I'm not sure. PC in Québec is virtually out, since angry comments said will be use against him.

I Think the Liberals and the NDP will play the no show game in the case of an early election called in january.

I mean, in riding where there is a NPD MP, no LIB cadidate. Where Libs are in place, No NDP.

Same for second runner in ridings. I don't see such thing is necessary in Québec.

Since 63 % of the people didn't vote for PC. It is less than obvious,in such circumstances that Harper would come out first, he could end third or even fourth.

So, I don't think the parliament should be shut down.

The Gov. general of Canada is not the prime minister's puppet.

She represents the Crown, and the rules came out from the english revolution, with Cromwell.

The parliament is souvereign, it tells the crown which bills to pass, budget, etc.. The parliament is souvereign, not the Prime minister.

As long the PM is in control of the House, because he has majority or may lean on a majority. He may decide or dictate the Gov. General.

But it is obviously not the case.

Gov. General has no obligation to follow M. Harper Wills, But the Gov. General has the obligation to have a government that works properly.

This government was in the house for 7 days. before that ; elections, before that; summer break.

How many days since April the house of commons was in activity?

Now M. Harper wants a break untill january. If there are election again in january; then that means, no parliament before mid-March at least !!!!

Under these circumstances, because of the economical crisis, and political unstability around the globe that could affect this country.

I consider, The Gov. Gen. has the duty to consider a coalition to insure stability of the institutions, nonwithstanding personnal concern, regional concerns.

I have never voted for the Conservatives but an NDP/Liberal alliance with the Bloc holding power is too much to bear. The NDP should give up their party status. There should be no temporary mergers allowed. I want this to go to a vote . I am ready to give Stephen Harper a majority. I'm sorry I didn't vote for him he last time. It's funny that Duceppe, Dion and Layton are all from Quebec. Is this the Trojan Horse scenario? Suspicious?

I want the GG to turn this decision over to us in a general election once and for all otherwise this will happen with every minority parliament where affiliations will be bought and our tax dollars will be going to regional pet projects.

My exact concern was confirmed on National news last night when Gilles Duceppe stated that yes this would be good for the seperatists in the future, and guess what the other 2 Jack Layton and Dion couldnt/wouldnt say anything about this statement beacause as I expected this is not about the country of Canada it is about who sits on the top!

The Bloc has agreed to not test the seperatist vote for at least 18 months . How nice of him, and how nice of Canadians to foot the bill.

I have no alliances to any party My alliance is to Canada as a whole.

An update :
www.cbc.ca...

www.cbc.ca...

Hmmm . . . if you have five piles of useless crap of varying sizes as follows (143 pounds of crap, 76 pounds of crap, 50 pounds of crap that sees itself as a separate and unique pile of crap, 37 pounds of crap and an itty bitty two pound pile of crap), it really doesn't matter how you stack them up or who sits on top of that steaming festering reeking pile . . . it's still crap.

We've got basically two guys fighting over who gets to sit on top of the dungpile, neither of which as brough forth one decent idea on what changes they would make to move this country forward, rather they're both snivelling whining dullards who seemingly couldn't lead a small town parade down mainstreet let alone navigate the country through these troubled waters.

It's just a whole bunch of ugliness to add to the ugliness we're already in and the end result will be . . . well . . .

Crap.

There is now a press conference being called for 7:00pm tonight. This should be interesting

I'd like to echo what Malynn has posted.

This is exactly how our system is supposed to work. We vote for MP's, not the Prime Minister, and the leader of the party that has the confidence of the House (normally the one with the most MP's) is the PM. If the current PM does not have the confidence of the House, the GG is well within his/her rights to allow this coalition to govern.

I realize there are people on both sides of the spectrum that are upset by this turn of events, but this coalition has been a possibility from before the elections. Heck, Layton even brought it up in the English leadership debate.

The simple facts are that this is how our system works, Harper made a serious miscalculation and now everybody is freaking out because nobody expected this - except for those who paid attention during the debates. The predictable anti-Quebec sentiments (I'm not innocent on that one either) have reared their ugly heads and we're all screaming 'oh noes, they are seperatists and only represent Quebec'. Well guess what, Reform was a one province kind of party and they now lead the country after Peter McKay betrayed the PC's and merged with the far-right.

/rant

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS It's funny that Duceppe, Dion and Layton are all from Quebec. Is this the Trojan Horse scenario? Suspicious?

How typically French indeed that Layton should move from Quebec to Toronto in 1970, ostensibly to go to York University, but in actuality to be a secret sleeper agent!

Nice catch, anonymous...keep up that fine investigative work!

Originally posted by Duzey

We vote for MP's, not the Prime Minister, and the leader of the party that has the confidence of the House (normally the one with the most MP's) is the PM. If the current PM does not have the confidence of the House, the GG is well within his/her rights to allow this coalition to govern.

/rant

To me, the question(s) then become:

Do our MPs represent the will of those who elected them and do those MPs really represent those who elected them or are the MPs blindly following party platitudes based on the fact that if they don't, they'll be doomed to the back benches until the next election when they're not supported in their riding by their applicable party?

I've not had a knock on my door, nor have I been otherwise contacted by my MP to querry my feelings on the Conservatives' efforts to straighten out the country's economic issues (the ones that took decades to create) in a matter of months.

As you can see, I have a hard time with all three mainstream political parties as they've done nothing positive for this country beginning with the Trudeau/Chretien wage and price control fiasco of the 1970s and, in my opinion, our sense of Canada as a country has weakened considerably since then.

Clearly, finding a solution to the global economic woes have apparently baffled the great minds around the world . . . I guess those great minds just haven't gotten around to chatting with Dion, Layton and Duceppe yet because that trio of great thinkers apparently have all the solutions and know Harper doesn't.

If these droll little power grubbers spent the same amount of energy trying to collectively solve our problems as they have trying to firm up their place in the history books, we'd probably be a tad further ahead of things than we are now.

But, just as the me-first mentality got us into this economic jam, their me-first mentality will only serve to prolong our stay in it.

Why not put all of this to a vote . . . why won't Harper, Dion, Layton and Duceppe do that?

They claim it is because Canadians don't want to go to the polls again, and further cite the 'costs' of an election and election burnout as reasons for that hesitancy to push another election.

Given that we've had several of them in the past four years, maybe it is the electorate saying to the three of them that we don't believe any of them are worthy of leading this country . . . maybe we're all just sick and freakin' tired of this whole political arena where the game is played at the expense of our economic well-being.

To me, it is kind of like watching four dogs run around in the park, lifting their legs on every tree, sniffing each other's butts and humping each other's legs to determine who gets to be the leader of the pack.

Pathetic.

Really really pathetic.



[edit on 4-12-2008 by GoalPoster]

Pointers from the rulebook of coalition governments

A good topical read from this morning's Globe and Mail.

From the Globe and Mail

"Coalitions only work, they only stay together, if they establish firm rules with an agreement in advance. When they stop playing by the rules, it is a disaster for everyone,"

Originally posted by GoalPoster

Pointers from the rulebook of coalition governments

A good topical read from this morning's Globe and Mail.

Let us take into account the fact that The Globe endorsed Harper in the last election, so it cannot be considered a neutral party in this debate. Nor can the Star which has a decided (and admitted) Liberal cant. As do I.

But...Harper is being disingenuous by decrying precisely the same politics as he indulged in, both in power and in opposition. I read where one MP, Devolin says this coalition was formed in response to 'some minor irritants' in Flaherty's financial statement. C'mon...it was provocation, pure and simple, and like typical bullies, they whine and cry how it ain't fair if anybody stands up to them.

Harper has the luxury of having the Liberals take his crap for two years as they were afraid to fight an election with Dion at the helm. His hubris prevented him from seeing that they had finally taken a page from the Tory playbook and used it on him. Tough noogies.

This coalition will fail to take power. Harper will prorogue (he is talking to the GG as we speak), and unless I'm really wrong, he will take the 'time-out' to prepare a budget that is bulletproof...one that will fulfill the Liberal/NDP wish list, and he will then complete his mandate in a more civilised manner. The way a minority gov't should function.

The Liberals enabled them up to now. Glad they finally found some collective balls.



[edit on 4-12-2008 by JohnnyCanuck]

Ok so this is probably dangerous thinking.... but hey what the heck ......

Its time we modify our parliament. Every couple of years we implement new types of archetecture in every domain be it computers, psychology, science.... Its time that our political system represent our current needs.

PM Harper was right about one thing in his speach yesterday. People do tend to look at us and to whatever we do, as we are an example for other countries. Maybe not the big ones but never the less.....

PM and other parties in the chamber of representatives..... are exactly that ... suppose to represent us.... I for one do not feel that any of those bunch of kids represent our interests.

We should really set forward a new motion in politics. Something fresh and new with solid fondations. Something that would take us closer to being a unity and a single voice even though we have multiple opinions.

Any thoughts from some revolutionaires in here?

Originally posted by KpxMarMoTT
Ok so this is probably dangerous thinking.... but hey what the heck ......
Its time we modify our parliament.

Well, we just saw Harper try to modify a funding formula that would end up hobbling oppostion parties...and do it from a position of obvious advantage. We certainly don't change the rules because they don't suit our current agenda.

Ontario presented the option of changing the 'first past the gate' formula during the last election, and it didn't fly. Donno if it would work on a Federal level without a large campaign.

Everything being presented by the opposition is legal and moral, and should they get in (which I doubt), they will answer to the electorate in the end. As will Harper.

Self edit to say that if I am missing the point, should we move to a republic or something, I'd pass. Even though things get a little hinky from time-to-time, I prefer this system. And the result should be a more polite House.

[edit on 4-12-2008 by JohnnyCanuck]

Apart from the fact that this political wrangling has, to some, devalued our faith in the electoral system in Canada, it appears it is similarly diminishing the value of our dollar . . .

Dollar diving . . .

Cooper said the situation has already caused the Canadian dollar to fall more sharply than it would have before the crisis erupted, noting the loonie dropped further after televised national addresses on Wednesday evening by Harper and Liberal leader Stéphane Dion.