NDP, Bloc in coalition talks before fiscal update: tape

This so-called united-left front is a sham. They have to get into bed so deep with Duceppe and his Separatists to make it work that it would be laughable if it weren't so dangerous.

This is a Coup, a power grab by parties that on their own have no elected authority to govern. The Governor General should force an election when presented with their "letter of intent" to form a coalition.

Treasonous?

Yup.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Cynic]

This is corporate collusion on a large magnitude, except that instead of playing with profits, the government is playing with the sovereign interest of the people. Coalition forming should be illegal unless the voters, responsible for granting the members of Parliament their seats, are given a referendum regarding its validity. The general interest of the people changes as soon as parties merge.

This constitutionally protected option encourages incessant infighting and assures the interminable struggle for creating power changing opportunities. Contrary to Alexander Hamilton's commentary on government, whereby greater single party rule, for the period of a planned interval, gives "reason an advantage over passion", the government of Canada is susceptible to the belligerence of frequent shifts in confidence of the masses, and therefore the passions of the elected officials subvert the principle of reason attested by the people's initial votes. Government is then less accountable during it's time in power that they do not bother to pursue anything fundamentally worthwhile to the greater good of society. This situation creates a massive moral hazard, where the present government tends to act in their own self interest, passing laws, which serve little or no purpose for society, but rather focus on retaining existing power. When not in power, they use anything at their disposal to attack the integrity of parties that are in a position of power.

For example, we have yet to see a resolution on the carbon tax proposals, which are pushed at voters all across the country. People that voted for this plan, recognizing its obvious benefits to society, have yet to see anything worthwhile materialize, because the parties would rather argue against the proposal's "style of implementation" rather than the inherent benefits any of those plans would produce. In B.C., NDP leaders mock the carbon tax initiative, not on its principle, but on some arbitrary and ridiculous notion that somehow the NDP would do it better than the Libearls. How can you prove something like that? Sorry, but your word alone is not enough. This is pure political sniping, and an attempt to reduce the existing party's power, rather than solve the problem.

Coalition forming just shows us the unruly and inefficient nature of our political system. Although these same measures discourage true corruption, we are met with massive inefficiency. Governments in power can not truly abuse their power, as is evidenced by the Conservative's recent attempt and failure at bankrupting the other parties through the elimination of the federal funds law concerning the $1.95 granted per party per vote. However, with this benefit, we have been imposed a fairly hefty cost.

By avoiding the unification of powerful single entities on a consistent basis (the two party system in the U.S.), we are gifted with relatively little progress and a global reputation of useless inactivity, when compared to most democratic nations. Our peacekeeping reputation has hit the nadir of global opinion, we suffer from being able to meet Kyoto Protocol standards, and our real estate sector is subject to the volatility of the U.S. financial market. Although we tend to avoid war at all costs, as a society we truly are royally screwed.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by Rook1545
Um...no we are not in the same boat. The West is treated as a colony for Eastern Canada. As far as conditions out East, if you don't like it, leave, simple enough. No one is forcing you stay there. I know lots of people who have done it.

Typical western ignorance. With the exception of BC. All's well as long as you can afford your double/double, screw the rest of the country.

Maybe we are in the same boat, but then wouldn't that mean that everyone that supports this should suck it up and live with a Conservative government for the next 2 years.

You know what? I was against this as the people have chosen. Thanks, you just changed my mind.

Originally posted by Cynic

This is a Coup, a power grab by parties that on their own have no elected authority to govern. The Governor General should force an election when presented with their "letter of intent" to form a coalition.

Treasonous? Yup.

Why, then, was it not treasonous when broached by Harper in '04? Sorry, but ya can't suck and blow at the same time.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Did he say he supported Harper? He's exposing the apparent inefficacy of such a system, which I believe is entirely valid. Nowhere in his post did he indicate he was supporting a particular party.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by cognoscente]

reply to post by intrepid


Explain to me how it is western ignorance. Seriously, if it is not in my best interests, why should I support it?

This is backdoor politics. Like others, I was against it in 2004, and I am against it now. Although it will be funny trying to watch this gongshow operate.

Originally posted by cognoscente
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Did he say he supported Harper? He's exposing the apparent inefficacy of such a system, which I believe is entirely valid. Nowhere in his post did he indicate he was supporting a particular party.

After a while you recognise the rhetoric. It's all legal, and it's about time. Get over it.

reply to post by Rook1545


Intrepid, I also disagree with this whole notion of forming coalitions for purposing of usurping power. It diminishes the significance of an individual's votes. When parties merge the initial interests of voters are taken for granted. If I had voted for the Liberals, I didn't intend for the formation of some half-assed, compromised party between the Liberals and the NDP. I didn't grant my vote just so the MPs could run around like little kids in Parliament doing whatever they please. Their positions of power are only as valid as they were when I granted them that vote. It's collusion on a grand scale, and it's subject to the internal passions of Parliament, and not the rationalizations of the people, which granted them their power. Government must be an extension of the people.

What I do realize, however, is that without this we would have something along the lines of the U.S., with only two or three major parties. Still, I think that system is better than a government, such as ours, that because of it's relative unaccountability to its people, is only interested in retaining power, rather than actually serving the country.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by cognoscente]

I don't want those idiots Dion and Layton running my country.

Not at this time with the economics.

This is all very constitutional but it's wrong and I am mad as hell.

We had an election 6 weeks ago.

I hope they call another election so we can vote all these bastards out

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Truly pathetic. Even if you can't do anything about it, just recognizing this system's apparent faults is necessary. This is a discussion board. We aren't professional consultants. Let's discuss the validity of this subject, based on principle, regardless of the occasion. In this case, rhetoric is important. Providing a pessimistic, we can't do anything about it attitude is truly indicative of intellectual apathy

[edit on 1-12-2008 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by Rook1545
Explain to me how it is western ignorance. Seriously, if it is not in my best interests, why should I support it?

Simple. I'm a Nova Scotian but due to my fathers work I've lived in damn near every province in this country. BC was cool but still ignorant. There was BC, Albta, Sask, Man, Ont(hated), Queb(hated even more) and then anything east of that was Newfoundland. Guess what, there are 3 other provinces there with people that just want to make a living without having to move. Many didn't have a choice but to move to Ont., Alba, BC, etc as their economy was sold from under them by Mulroney.

We bitch about it but you don't hear the whining that we hear from other provinces like Albta, and Queb. "What about MEEEEEEE???" Congrats, you've bought into the regional seperation of the country.

reply to post by intrepid


Hey I am all for the country, and making it better. But not at the expense of others. Back in the late 90s when oil prices sucked and our economy was down, we took our lumps, but never asked for anything. Most Western anger is not directed at the Maritimes, it is directed at Quebec, and lately Ontario as well. The Maritimers work, and will work hard. They ask for enough to survive, I can respect that. But constantly demanding handouts is crap. They have the power to decide completely who runs the country, but their money comes off of the backs of those who have no say. That is where my anger at this whole thing comes from.

Thank you.......I am not in favor actually of any of the parties .....Period.
What is my issue is that if another election must be called to find where the people really stand then so be it. Lets not bow down and take it that these people know what the masses want. Isnt this the entire reason for ATS to expose the truth of the covert actions behind the scenes>
I do believe this to be treason as I am a Canadian and to all my American friends you know how you would feel if all of a sudden a state of your union decided to go it alone. Now......... take that seperated state and say ok you can now tell us how we're going to run your country. SAY WHAT
I never voted for these people and maybe I was wrong in my vote BUT ITS WHAT THE PEOPLE ASKED FOR. So let the people make the decisions. Not the politicians and their gangs of "WhoEvers"

Other than that its been a great day!

reply to post by cognoscente

reply to post by intrepid


Please Intrepid,
stop posting that expert sign of yours when dealing this matter, please. You hate almost every places you lived in this country and tell people to shut up or move away.

This Crisis is serious. There is a political shift, it is not about a liberal communist separatist plot but about Extrem Right politics, A Prime minister who wants to destroy any opposition, a Prime Minister who spy, tape telephone line, and the people fear what he could do if he has the chance.

NIXONISM and Bush minding, that's what at stake.

When we saw Harper's speaches with almost the exact sentences of the Autralian Prime minister about going to Iraq......Who is Plotting !

Maybe this coalition could work, Bloc MP's are not stupid, they play the game fair in the House, they even have been the official opposition, and the did well, without abusing their place.

I say it again, I am not the happiest guy seeing Duceppe working with Dion.

Psychadelic time needs psychotronic solution. I Guess.

Hey guys,

Just for some clarification,

The Bloc is not a seperatist party. The Parti Quebecois is what you're talking about. The Bloc is just set up to ensure representation of Quebec in parliament.

Though I'm from Quebec, I'm not a seperatist (I'm the complete opposite actually...Causes some tension) and I've never voted for the Bloc. But they aren't really a seperatist party.

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

My problem with all of this is that the PCs have been in power a total of 6 days. How is this not sour grapes?
.

Was is sour grapes that got Clark ousted in '79?

No. It was complete non-confidence in the government.

A no confidence vote - and an election call - at this time would be completely irresponsible because during an election, there is effectively NO GOVERNMENT. No new laws can be tabled.

Canada simply cannot afford to go through that again, not at this time. September-October hurt things more than enough. Forming a coalition government is perfectly legal, not at all without precedent, and frankly the only option.

Originally posted by DazedDave
Hey guys,

Just for some clarification,

The Bloc is not a seperatist party. The Parti Quebecois is what you're talking about. The Bloc is just set up to ensure representation of Quebec in parliament.

Donno about that...I'd tend to disagree.

Seems the rest of the country also has the exact sentiments. The TSX` was down 864 points (about 10%) today; lets see what tomorrow brings and even worse lets see what next week brings when the rest of the sheeple actually get it.

The opposition parties have signed the deal and have announced that they will do this next Monday.....hmmmmm Now what was that other nasty thing that seems to happen on Mondays? Stay tuned

Originally posted by unruly1
Seems the rest of the country also has the exact sentiments. The TSX` was down 864 points (about 10%) today; lets see what tomorrow brings and even worse lets see what next week brings when the rest of the sheeple actually get it.

Did this crash the DOW as well? Is that what's causing the Nikkei to drop as we speak?

Face it - this isn't the cause of the market drop, because it's just not that important to the rest of the world. Sad, but true. The drop was because of this: US Recession news

Yes you may be right but here in Canada this will be a major impact. We shall see.

Maybe some research on the other parties policies may give you some insight ie: New Democrat party will have a hayday giving away the farm and will like the Loonie to drop so they can then say see look we have created more jobs BUT .......this is all about power or the lack of it.

Canada like any other country can not afford to have instability in these times. So did it make the Dow drop........ Maybe.