Mass confusion of Citizenship Rules: Obama is Legit

OBAMA AND OSAMA HAVE BEEN FRIENDS OF THE BUSH FAMILY FOR OVER 1000 YEARS,
PRESIDENTS ARE NOT ALLECTED THEY ARE DECIDED.
GET REAL!

Z

Originally posted by JohnnyR

If its already been "vetted" by thousands of professionals, then why is the SCOTUS looking at it?

Actually what was filed in the SCOTUS was a Petition for writ of certerori. The writ of certiorari has not yet been granted by the SCOTUS.

Some legal definitions can be found here.

The petition of a writ of certiorari is a document which a losing party files with the Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court to review the decision of a lower court. It includes a list of the parties, a statement of the facts of the case, the legal questions presented for review, and arguments as to why the Court should grant the writ.

I hope it's heard to put this bull to rest. More importantly, I hope that Berg gets a lot of media attention on how stupid his claim is.

If anyone has read what he filed with a court..available on his website obamacrimes.com, it is full of internet rumor. He cites sources of people's internet aliases such as "TechDude" and "reputable sites" like Wikipedia. Honestly, I can't see how anyone is taking this guy seriously. But if you want to hold on to hope that this will make the black guy go away..more power to you.

I just find it amusing, myself.

Originally posted by irishgrl

Its my understanding that Hawaii has rules of its own allowing a person to claim birth in Hawaii, even it actually born elsewhere, as long as certain conditions are met. to wit:

Hawaii Revised Statute 338-178 allows registration of birth in Hawaii for a child that was born outside of Hawaii to parents who, for a year preceding the child’s birth, claimed Hawaii as their place of residence.

Since Hawaii issues “Certificates of Live Birth” to children not born in Hawaii and “Birth Certificates” to children who are born in Hawaii, the only way to know where Senator Obama was actually born is to view Senator Obama’s original birth certificate from 1961 that shows the name of the hospital and the name and signature of the doctor that delivered him.

however I also found this:

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date;

If she gave birth to Obama at 16, and spent at least 5 years in the States, (2 after the age of 14) then she is a citizen, and so is her child, apparently, regardless of where he/she was born or the status of his/her legitimacy...If I understand this correctly...

1. It's not a "certificate of live birth" issued in this situation, it's an actual birth certificate. Both the birth certificate issued this way, and the certificate Obama has shown which is extracted from it, will be issued by Hawaii, but will show the actual place of birth.

So the fact that the certificate we have seen gives the place of birth as Hawaii is proof Obama was born in Hawaii.

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State.

(a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

2. As , unbeknown to Obama's mother, his father was still married when he married her, their marriage was not legal. Therefore different rules apply and Obama's mother only had to have been a US citizen and resided in America for one year to pass on US citizenship to her baby.

So Obama was born a US citizen, even if he was born on Krypton.

Justia> Law> US Law> US Code>
TITLE 8 — ALIENS AND NATIONALITY>
CHAPTER 12 — IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY>
SUBCHAPTER III — NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION>
PART I — NATIONALITY AT BIRTH AND COLLECTIVE NATURALIZATION> § 1409. —
Children born out of wedlock.

(c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person's birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.

Besides, Obama's mother was nearly 18 when she had him, not 16.

Mod Edit: Fixed quote tags.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by GAOTU789]

interesting. I wonder how Obama can refute his grandmother and his half sister's claims he was born in Kenya? Im not saying I believe one thing over another, but I do think that the Hawaii Birth Cert is more and more important. Also, apparently, Obama's mother failed to satisfy the residency requirement in some way...

[edit on 12/2/08 by irishgrl]

You people need to read the rest of the 800 posts on this subject. Many constitution quotes, many law quotes etc etc etc . This has been talked discussed to death.

I will sum it up for ya.

Natural Born is not naturalized citizen
Natural Born is not citizen "at" birth

Natural born is born on US soil period.

Mccain is not constitutionally eligible to be president. However the senate voted on and passed a resolution claiming he is. However, this resolution is not actually leaggaly binding, it just means congress thinks he is "close enough". This could be challenged if neccessary. (but its obviously not neccessary)

If Obama was born in Kenya, he is not eligible period. I am not going to dig up the law on this one, but trust me its been posted on ATS 1000 times.

If he was born in HI, he is good to go. (although there are some who claim he possibly may have 2 other passports. Which is a whole other ball game)

One arguement on this, is that he travelled to Pakistan back in 1981 I believe, when there was a travel ban for US citizens going to Pakistan. So the claim is that he used an indonesian passport or possibly a Canadian one.

Originally posted by its bologna

Originally posted by JohnnyR

If its already been "vetted" by thousands of professionals, then why is the SCOTUS looking at it?

Actually what was filed in the SCOTUS was a Petition for writ of certerori. The writ of certiorari has not yet been granted by the SCOTUS.

Some legal definitions can be found here.

The petition of a writ of certiorari is a document which a losing party files with the Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court to review the decision of a lower court. It includes a list of the parties, a statement of the facts of the case, the legal questions presented for review, and arguments as to why the Court should grant the writ.

I hope it's heard to put this bull to rest. More importantly, I hope that Berg gets a lot of media attention on how stupid his claim is.

If anyone has read what he filed with a court..available on his website obamacrimes.com, it is full of internet rumor. He cites sources of people's internet aliases such as "TechDude" and "reputable sites" like Wikipedia. Honestly, I can't see how anyone is taking this guy seriously. But if you want to hold on to hope that this will make the black guy go away..more power to you.

I just find it amusing, myself.

I cannot say whether Berg's writ was granted or not but I CAN say that the COURT (as in the US SUPREME CT) gave Obama until 12/1/09 to respond to Berg's motion, and as far as I know, Obama has not done so. This basically amounts (in legal procedure) to an admission. So, folks can throw around Constitutional phrasing, or legal precedent all they want to, but if Obama isnt complying with a Supreme Ct order, then he is hoisting his own petard IMO. NUFF SAID.

[edit on 12/2/08 by irishgrl]

Originally posted by PowerSlave
If he was born in HI, he is good to go. (although there are some who claim he possibly may have 2 other passports. Which is a whole other ball game)

One arguement on this, is that he travelled to Pakistan back in 1981 I believe, when there was a travel ban for US citizens going to Pakistan. So the claim is that he used an indonesian passport or possibly a Canadian one.

The use of a foreign passport doesn't void your US citizenship:

Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship. (source)

edit: fixed link



[edit on 2-12-2008 by danx]

by the way....I am a Poli Sci major, with a Paralegal Cert in the state of CA (recognized by the ABA, thank you very much!!!). I am not a n00b when it comes to legal issues. I dont claim to have ALL the answers, but Im sure as hell not clueless, so you can curb your condescension. Thank you.

Originally posted by danx

Originally posted by PowerSlave
If he was born in HI, he is good to go. (although there are some who claim he possibly may have 2 other passports. Which is a whole other ball game)

One arguement on this, is that he travelled to Pakistan back in 1981 I believe, when there was a travel ban for US citizens going to Pakistan. So the claim is that he used an indonesian passport or possibly a Canadian one.

The use of a foreign passport doesn't void your US citizenship:

Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship. (source)

edit: fixed link



[edit on 2-12-2008 by danx]

the issue is not that he used a foreign passport but rather that the citizenship rules of Indonesia, at the time he attended school there, stipulated that Indonesian citizens could not claim dual citizenship, which meant, in theory, that Obama, or his mother, would have had to renounce their US citizenship (if I understand the issue correctly). Therefore, Obama would have had to reapplied for US citizenship afterward, which apparently he did NOT do. Im sure the SCOTUS will figure it out....

Originally posted by irishgrl
the issue is not that he used a foreign passport but rather that the citizenship rules of Indonesia, at the time he attended school there, stipulated that Indonesian citizens could not claim dual citizenship, which meant, in theory, that Obama, or his mother, would have had to renounce their US citizenship (if I understand the issue correctly). Therefore, Obama would have had to reapplied for US citizenship afterward, which apparently he did NOT do. Im sure the SCOTUS will figure it out....

Parents cannot renounce the citizenship of their minor children.

Furthermore, even if Indonesian law didn't allow dual citizenship, US law did. From a US law perspective, Obama couldn't have lost his citizenship.

Ive heard that argument before, however I think this issue has legs and I think Obama will have to PROVE his legitimacy. whether or not you or I agree.

by the way (and for the record) I am not anti-Obama. I voted for him. He wasnt my first choice but in the end, Im glad he won. That doesnt detract from the fact that I want him to win LEGITIMATELY. As in WITHOUT DOUBT. As in, WITH COURT APPROVAL.

I know the SCOTUS handed the Bushwhacker his Presidency, but Im hoping they can find a sturdier plank to stand on for Obama. Otherwise, I lose all faith in the credibility of the courts.

Originally posted by irishgrl
Ive heard that argument before, however I think this issue has legs and I think Obama will have to PROVE his legitimacy. whether or not you or I agree.

Section 401 of the Nationality Act of 1940 (the same Act Berg cites as basis for his argument):

A person who is a national of the United States, whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by:
(a) Obtaining naturalization in a foreign state, either upon his own application or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person: Provided, however, That nationality not be lost as the result of the naturalization of a parent unless and until the child shall have attained the age of twenty-three years without acquiring permanent residence in the United States

That doesnt detract from the fact that I want him to win LEGITIMATELY. As in WITHOUT DOUBT. As in, WITH COURT APPROVAL.

I'm in complete agreement with you. And as far as I can tell, all the laws seem to support the idea that he is a "natural born" citizen and never lost his citizenship (provided that he indeed was born in Hawaii).




[edit on 2-12-2008 by danx]

Originally posted by TKainZero
Reguardless of where Obama was born, when he was adopted by his mothers second husband, he lost his US Natural Born Citizenship.

No.

1. Adoption has no relevance to citizenship.
2. You do not lose American citizenship by gaining citizenship of another country.
3. You cannot even give up American citizenship before you are 18.
4. If you are coerced into giving up American citizenship, you are deemed by American law to have not given it up. Even for an adult, it must be completely voluntary.
5. Nothing your parents can do can deprive you of your American citizenship.

I must say, btw, that America, through her citizenship laws, takes about the best care of her citizens of any country on Earth. You guys should be proud.

IMHO, the best case the Obama can make, is that he was born in Hawaii, and when he moved to the Far East with Stanly's second husband, he was an illigal alien there, and would be an criminal in THAT country...

And that his American ID was still clean...

That way he would just be an international criminal, that would be another countries responsiblity, rather then an illigal alien, from a foriegn nation in the USA...

OMG! This is just rabid absurdity!
You don't become an illegal alien or an international criminal by living in another country for four years!

Obama was taken to Indonesia legally.
He lived there, from the age of 6 to the age of 10, under his stepfather's name.
At the age of 10 Obama returned to Hawaii as a legal American resident, with his mother.
When Obama's mother returned to continue her work with the Indonesians she was helping, Obama chose to remain in Hawaii, living with his maternal grandparents while continuing his schooling at regular American schools.

Originally posted by bosco8161
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Per your request from Article 2 of the United States Constitution.
. . . . . . . .

See also: natural-born citizen and President of the United States
By the time of their inauguration, the President and Vice President must be:

natural born citizens (or citizens at the time of the Constitution's adoption)
at least thirty-five years old
inhabitants for at least fourteen years of the United States.
. . . . . . . .

Only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both citizens of the U.S.) may be president of the United States,
. . . . . . . .

PLEASE, next time pay attention to your American Government Class.

And again, I'm not saying he's not an American Citizen, but if he is not the rule of law applies.

Well duh, of course the rule of law applies ...

I know the constitution all right, and NOWHERE does the constitution say:
"Only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both citizens of the U.S.) may be president of the United States,"

The constitution does say the president must be a natural born citizen of America. However "natural born" in this context has never been officially defined. It is not defined in the constitution. It is not defined in American law.

The most common definition of natural born is having been born on the soil of the country concerned. Being born to two American citizens outside America has never been an accepted definition.

I would not be surprised if the Supreme Court uses this opportunity to formally define natural born at last. On the other hand they might prefer to leave the definition flexible so as to not exclude any good, obviously patriotic citizen from being president in the future.

Originally posted by TKainZero
One could not attend schools in indonesia, UNLESS they were an indonesian citizen...

Despite this allegation being frequently repeated, no-one has ever shown an iota of proof to support it.

And, you COULD NOT BE AN INDONEASIAN citizen, IF you had any other citezenship...

It is true that accepting Indonesian citizenship means renouncing American citizenship. However this renunciation only means Indonesia no longer acknowledges your other citizenship. American law does not recognise the renunciation of citizenship by a child under 18 or by anyone under duress.

So... either BO gave up his citizenship, when his mother 2nd husband adopted him...

Adoption by a foreign national is irrelevant to one's American citizenship.

OR, he was an illigal alien living under a false name in Indonesia...
Obama entered Indonesia legally and lived their legally.

Obama did not live in Indonesia long enough to qualify to take on Indonesian citizenship.
Obama did not live under a false name. He took his stepfather's name as children often do.

His best case to make is that he broke no US laws... but only Indoneasian Law...
So, he IS an international Criminal, wanted in Indonesia...

More rabid insanity ...
You have not shown that Obama has ever broken a law anywhere.
Which, under the circumstances, is hardly surprising.

unless of course he is not there, which would likely make him an illigal alien in the USA...
We will see how powerful BO has become...
Can he supercede the Law with the Clinton Media Machine behind him???
He has so far....and only time will tell

Actually Obama is a scaley green reptilian who is going to climb in through your window tonight, suck out your soul and enslave you forever.
I know he is because no-one has ever proved to me he isn't.

[edit on 3/12/08 by Kailassa]

[edit on 3/12/08 by Kailassa]

Originally posted by JohnnyR

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Ummmm....I'm a little confused.
We have ATS members, who by the nature of the anonymity of the Internets ("It's a series of tubes!!!")....[a quote from disgraced Senator Ted Stevens (R), AK]...claim to be be Constitutional 'experts'.
Why, oh why do a handful of people on an interent site know more than thousands and thousands of professionals that have already 'vetted' this issue???

If its already been "vetted" by thousands of professionals, then why is the SCOTUS looking at it?

SCOTUS is not looking at it.

A case has been taken to SCOTUS.
SCOTUS has not yet decided whether or not to hear it. They will meet on December 5th to make that decision.
If the court chooses to look at it, it could be because "natural born" needs defining legally rather than because there is any problem with Obama's eligibility.

Arguments aside, about Pres-Elect Obama or Sen. (R) McCain and their births.....

Wasn't the concept of the Constitution (remember that document??? The BASIS of our American Democracy that a certain former ((current)) President attempted to shred??)


Our Constitution has....I've lost count, but over twenty 'Amendments'.....you see, that is the brilliance OF this Constitution, flawed as it may have been when first drafted over 200 YEARS AGO!

NONE of the original Founding Fatherscould have possibly foreseen....the Civil War! The expansion, to the West, and the violation of the Native Americans...the 'Lousiana Purcase'....or 'Seward's Folly', which brought Alaska into our Union....(no comment here)...

THIS IS WHY our Constitution was designed as a document to evolve --- hence it has a provision for 'Amendments'---and as such, is under constant survelliance and attack by those who wish to go backwards, rather than progressing forwards.

Just consider the 'prohibition' era of the 1920s....and you can see how the revered 'Constitution' has become a Political 'football' over the decades.

It is a sad legacy....but, it also is an education. The knowledge of the past does not have to be repeated, as long as we learn those lessons.....

Originally posted by Evisscerator




Why don't you go read the law as it was in 1961?

It plainly states that OBAMA could not be a citizen because his MOTHER was underage. His grandma in Kenya has lmade a sworn statement that she was at his birth in Kenya.

I understand that some of you think that having OBAMA as your President is going to make everything better. However, you guys need to think about this carefully. You may be selling your souls to Lucifer.

Stuff'n nonsense.

Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
Hawaii was then, and still is, part of America.
There is no age requirement for a mother passing on her American citizenship to her child when that child is born on in America.
Even if his mother had only been 3 years old, Obama would still be a natural born American citizen.

Neither of Obama's grandmothers ever made any sworn statement about the place of Obama's birth.
Obama's father's stepmother said on tape she had been there, in Kenya, at Obama senior's birth.
She said on another tape that Obama was "a son of the village."
This refers to an ancestral relationship, and is not indicative of place of birth.

I have yet to see definitive proof that Obama was born in Hawaii. Particularly since his mother was pretty advanced in her pregnancy while she was in Africa. And as far as I know, airlines have had a pretty standard practice of not allowing women onboard a plane if they are close to delivering. There is the possibility she gave birth in Africa, and flew to Hawaii soon after to register Obama's birth with a Hawaiian hospital, thus the Hawaiian birth cert.

The thing that bothers me is that the birth cert he's produced so far does not have the typical hallmarks of a normal Hawaiian birth cert (a doctor's signature for example).

This is not resolved to my satisfaction and the more he drags his feet on this, the more suspicious I become. As I said before, I voted for him, I have no issue with him, but again, I want him to have LEGITIMATELY acquired his office.