Mass confusion of Citizenship Rules: Obama is Legit

I would tend to agree with most people on here about the definition of "natural born citizen" as well as the fact that being born in the panama canal zone does not give you "natural" citizenship...

however, a few posts back someone posted this link leahy.senate.gov...

which says
"it is widely believed that if someone is born to American citizens anywhere in the world they are natural born citizens."

If this is the case, then there is no argument... however what should come of this is that "natural born citizen" should be clearly legally defined

reply to post by coven


Here are some interesting links:

www.thebulletin.us...

www.renewamerica.us...


www.obamacrimes.com... (with video clips)

Disclaimer: I neither agree nor disagree with the contents of the abovementioned websites or links.

okay i'm a moderate who refused to vote for the first time in my life. i saw no lesser of two evils this go round. right-wingers see obama as the boogie man. however he has assembled a strong national security team. hillary was the strongest democratic supporter of the war in iraq. in fact it costs her some libby votes and perhaps the nomination. obama has appointed a brass nuts marine as his national security advisor. kept the current secretary of defense. claims he will keep america number one militarily while promoting diplomacy to renew old alliances and strengthen existing ones. what is it? about 64 million voters voted for brack. are we going to split america by disenfranchising over half of the voters. yes i prefer the US Constitutional way of things. that is why i opposed attempts to eliminate the mnaturalized citizen requirement for anyone seeking the presidency. right-wingers wanted the governor of california. however we shouldn't open that can of worms for a few years in power. silly citizens. brack obama is moving into the White House. although his wife sometimes chooses to dress in red and black like a black widow spider i am hopeful his personality is stronger than his wife's. don't think for a minute that the media and political machine isn't going to work overtime to ensure the first african-american president is going to be successful. i would guess the handlers are currently busy grooming the soon-to-be first lady on how to "behave" like a proper first lady. still would like to know if and when princeton university is going to release her master's thesis. what are they hiding? can you say rewrite?

okay i'm a moderate who refused to vote for the first time in my life. i saw no lesser of two evils this go round. right-wingers see obama as the boogie man. however he has assembled a strong national security team. hillary was the strongest democratic supporter of the war in iraq. in fact it costs her some libby votes and perhaps the nomination. obama has appointed a brass nuts marine as his national security advisor. kept the current secretary of defense. claims he will keep america number one militarily while promoting diplomacy to renew old alliances and strengthen existing ones. what is it? about 64 million voters voted for brack. are we going to split america by disenfranchising over half of the voters. yes i prefer the US Constitutional way of things. that is why i opposed attempts to eliminate the mnaturalized citizen requirement for anyone seeking the presidency. right-wingers wanted the governor of california. however we shouldn't open that can of worms for a few years in power. silly citizens. brack obama is moving into the White House. although his wife sometimes chooses to dress in red and black like a black widow spider i am hopeful his personality is stronger than his wife's. don't think for a minute that the media and political machine isn't going to work overtime to ensure the first african-american president is going to be successful. i would guess the handlers are currently busy grooming the soon-to-be first lady on how to "behave" like a proper first lady. still would like to know if and when princeton university is going to release her master's thesis. what are they hiding? can you say rewrite?

reply to post by nyphonejacks

It was me that linked that Senate Resolution.

I think that Senate Resolution speaks volumes on how uncertain people really are regarding John McCain's situation (or anyone that falls under the same category). If they knew for sure John McCain was a "natural born" citizen, why the need for this Resolution?

This Resolution is non-binding, meaning it has no legal value. The way I take it is, as sort of a 'hint', to the Supreme Court if it would have to decide on this matter in the future, what the Senate thinks it means.


Article I Section 8 of the United States Constitution states:

The Congress shall have power (...) To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

The Congress can change it, but the only way to do it is through a Constitutional Amendment.

To ratify a Constitutional Amendment however, you need approval of at least 3/4 (38) states. As a little fun fact: there have been over ten thousand attempts to amend the United States Constitution, but only 27 attempts have succeeded.

Also, I know there's been at least one attempt to get the "natural born" citizen only clause removed from the Constitution, the Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment proposed in 2003. It failed.

Even though I didn't support John McCain, nor do I think he was the right person for the job, I believe he should be allowed to be President. I'm in favor of an Amendment to either remove the "natural born" citizen clause, or define exactly what it means.

how did barry and friends travel to Pakistan while in college?
they were under martial law and american passports were not allowed in the country.

www.colony14.net...[url=http://]
www.wnd.com...]
www.youtube.com...

well,as uncle jed would say,welllll,why don't' ya'll get to a provin' it?
DON'T YOU THINK $800,000 IS A BIT MUCH TO PAY TO KEEP FROM PROVING YOU'RE A CITIZEN????????


SEE YOU IN THE RED LINE AT THE FEMA CAMP!








[edit on 2-12-2008 by Spectre0o0]

Why don't you go read the law as it was in 1961?

It plainly states that OBAMA could not be a citizen because his MOTHER was underage. His grandma in Kenya has lmade a sworn statement that she was at his birth in Kenya.

I understand that some of you think that having OBAMA as your President is going to make everything better. However, you guys need to think about this carefully. You may be selling your souls to Lucifer.

Originally posted by nyphonejacks
I would tend to agree with most people on here about the definition of "natural born citizen" as well as the fact that being born in the panama canal zone does not give you "natural" citizenship...

however, a few posts back someone posted this link leahy.senate.gov...

which says
"it is widely believed that if someone is born to American citizens anywhere in the world they are natural born citizens."

If this is the case, then there is no argument... however what should come of this is that "natural born citizen" should be clearly legally defined

Leyhe is an idiot politician. That remark is so inappropriate and lacks any knowledge of our constitution.

What most people don't realize, is that being born on American soil makes you a "natural born" citizen. Being born in a foreign land where there is no American military base or embassy makes one a "foreigner". And, the original laws on the books prevented "Dual citizenship" meaning you had to denounce the other one in order to keep this one.

OBAMA is clearly not a "Natural Born" American citizen.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS
John McCain was born in Panama, on a US Naval Base, which is considered US territory. So, if you want to use the arguement that a person must be born "in the US" in order to run for office, then McCain qualifies.

everybody here knows whats going to happen
HE WILL STAY ON AS COMMUNIST IN CHARGE
come on you dont think "we the people" actually have a say in things do ya?

Originally posted by Evisscerator
Leyhe is an idiot politician. That remark is so inappropriate and lacks any knowledge of our constitution.

Aren't we lucky that you have a greater knowledge of the Constitution to set us all straight?

What most people don't realize, is that being born on American soil makes you a "natural born" citizen. Being born in a foreign land where there is no American military base or embassy makes one a "foreigner".

What? How do you come up with these things? Are you making up as you go along?

It has been pointed out to the point of exhaustion now: Military Bases are not "American soil" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment.

And having Military Bases or not in a country where one is born doesn't influence one's citizenship. That's just nonsense.

And, the original laws on the books prevented "Dual citizenship" meaning you had to denounce the other one in order to keep this one.

What law and what book are you talking about? You must be talking about Indonesian law, because dual (and multiple) citizenship was and is allowed by US law, and doesn't require a person to choose one over another.

Additionally, under US law you don't have to relinquish your citizenship to acquire a new one. Moreover, under US law, minors cannot relinquish their citizenship, nor can anyone on their behalf.

Again, this has pointed out numerous times on this and other threads of this kind. You should try and read other people's threads before you post.

reply to post by coven


I do not think everybody is trying to run Obama out of the office he's been elected to. All he has to do is show his birth certificate and the fuss is over.

No I did not, nor would not, vote for him due to my Godly principles but I would not say I, nor others, will keep fighting his elected office if he just showed his birth certificate. No different than when one gets a speeding ticket, he has to show his license. Just show it and get on with life.

If Americans put their head in the sand and let everything go without checks and balances...there will be no balance!

chuck

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
John McCain was born in Panama, on a US Naval Base, which is considered US territory.

Again, this has been pointed out to exhaustion now, but here it is once more:

From the State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual:

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

So, if you want to use the arguement that a person must be born "in the US" in order to run for office, then McCain qualifies.

No, McCain doesn't qualify. Here's why

From the Supreme Court case U.S. v. WONG KIM ARK, 169 U.S. 649 (1898):

The fourteenth amendment of the constitution, in the declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside,' contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only, birth and naturalization. Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.

Makes sense. A person born in the United States needs no naturalization, as his citizenship is established at birth by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the constitution.

Now let's look at what the Supreme Court says naturalization means and how it's done:

A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case (...) of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens, or by enabling foreigners individually to become citizens by proceedings in the judicial tribunals, as in the ordinary provisions of the naturalization acts.

So, people can be naturalized US citizens through the Courts or legislation, as in the ordinary provisions of the naturalization acts.

Then let's look at the legislation. Section 303 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1403):

(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this Act, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

Legislation was created specifically to address people born in the Panama Canal Zone, and declare them - or in other words, naturalize - US citizens.


If US Military bases are not part of the US within the meaning of the 14th Amendment, people born in the Canal Zone (such as John McCain) were not citizens at birth. The passing of legislation to declare (or naturalize) those people as US citizens proves this alone.

The only conclusion is that John McCain is a naturalized US citizen, and not a "natural born" citizen.




[edit on 2-12-2008 by danx]

You guys are children, throwing a month-long tantrum, poor babies

Great thread, but is it really relavant?

www.factcheck.org...

The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above.


Sources
United States Department of State. "Application for a U.S. Passport." Accessed 20 Aug. 2008.

State of Hawaii Department of Health. "Request for Certified Copy of Birth Record." Accessed 20 Aug. 2008.

Hollyfield, Amy. "Obama's Birth Certificate: Final Chapter." Politifact.com. 27 Jun. 2008.

The Associated Press. "State declares Obama birth certificate genuine" 31 Oct 2008.

Nakaso, Dan. "Obama's certificate of birth OK, state says; Health director issues voucher in response to 'ridiculous' barrage" Honolulu Advertiser 1 Nov 2008.

urbanlegends.about.com...

Self-styled "experts" have questioned the validity of Obama's Hawaii birth certificate as posted online, but after examining the actual physical document, investigators at Factcheck.org (Annenberg Public Policy Center) concluded it is authentic. The state of Hawaii has also affirmed its validity. Read the details...

Is this information still correct, or did I miss something? I just wanted to shed some light on this.

reply to post by Harassment101

None of that has convinced the skeptics (and some extremists dare I say).

Just take a look at what they demand to be released.

Even if those documents would be released, I suspect that it would never been enough to convince some people. We'll just have to accept that, no matter what evidence is presented, some will never believe it.

Originally posted by Evisscerator


It plainly states that OBAMA could not be a citizen because his MOTHER was underage. His grandma in Kenya has lmade a sworn statement that she was at his birth in Kenya.

Ann Dunham was 18 at his birth...

Second where is your proof he was born in Kenya... One person claiming to be present, Is nothing but hearsay without multiple credible witnesses...

I understand that some of you think that having OBAMA as your President is going to make everything better. However, you guys need to think about this carefully. You may be selling your souls to Lucifer.

Emphasis mine...

Why would Obama be Lucifer, yet Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Nixon and Johnson weren't Lucifer... What makes him so much worse than the other guys?

Just because you don't like the guy, doesn't mean you don't have to spend a month comparing him to evil incarnate...

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
You guys are children, throwing a month-long tantrum, poor babies

Who?

Tantrum?

Babies?

With a name like conservativeJack I'm a bit confused as to which side your bashing there... Being that I'm not whining, I'm presenting evidence, I'll safely assume your claiming the people freaking over Obama winning the Election are the tantrum throwing babies...

Originally posted by danx
reply to post by Harassment101

 

None of that has convinced the skeptics (and some extremists dare I say).

Just take a look at what they demand to be released.

Even if those documents would be released, I suspect that it would never been enough to convince some people. We'll just have to accept that, no matter what evidence is presented, some will never believe it.

Ok, thanks for cleaifying that. I was a bit confused. If the state of Hawaii says he's valid then I assume that's all that's needed.

I have a question however, if he was somehow removed from office for something like his birth certificate not being valid, would Biden be president or would he be disqualified along with Obama, and would the former president have to step in till the dispute was settled?

I don't know enough about the law to answer this, so maybe someone could clearify this.

Originally posted by Harassment101
I have a question however, if he was somehow removed from office for something like his birth certificate not being valid, would Biden be president or would he be disqualified along with Obama, and would the former president have to step in till the dispute was settled?

I don't know enough about the law to answer this, so maybe someone could clearify this.

That's a very good question.

I believe Section 3 of the 20th Amendment covers this:

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Joe Biden would act as President until a President shall have qualified.

George Bush couldn't act as President thanks to Section 1 of the 22th Amendment:

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

edit: links

[edit on 2-12-2008 by danx]