Science (15 Billion years) vs Creation (6 days) maybe they are saying the same thing

reply to post by noobfun


the eternal Elohiym...a way to express it in scientific terminology would be pi - a circle has no beginning and no end.

by the way, this video series from dr. michio kaku is very interesting! especially on the topic of quantum physics and "the beginning."



part 2
www.youtube.com...

part 3
www.youtube.com...

part 4
www.youtube.com...






[edit on 29-11-2008 by undo]

reply to post by undo


maybe you should watch it again

the goid he speaks of is the god all physacists understand it is not a creator or a bieng of divinity

it is everything around us it is the understanding of everything, it is not all powerful and all knowing

it does what it does becasue that is all it is capable of

the eternal Elohiym...

and theres the terminator of the infinity reduction, you just made one gave it a name then decided it has magical powers

this is not what Dr Michio Kaku speaks of

in scientific terminology would be pi - a circle has no beginning and no end.

a metaphor to rationalise the poor logic of the infinity reduction still means its fundamentally flawed

and yes when you create a circle it has a begining other wise there would be no circle

i didn't make you up did i?
you need to think outside the box, not the box of known reality, but the box of your understanding of known reality.

for example, dr. kaku says in his book physics of the impossible, that as 3 dimensional beings, we would have a hard time comprehending a 4th dimensional being. we'd be like fish in a pond, gazing up at ripples on the surface and not realizing there was a whole reality outside our own, view of the surface above us.

carl sagan explains it in this video of the 4th dimensional tesseract

reply to post by undo


love Sagen thanks for that clip

but again no where are any of them saying thier is a 4 dimensional bieng

your misusing thier words to try and prove your faith as somthing other then just that faith

beleief without or inspite of the evidence

you can dress it up in any disguise you wish but your still playing peek-a-boo with the god of the gap and trying to make infinty reductions a reality not a paradox

both are without logic and break when looked at with a little bit of reason and logic

the fact it could be possible no matter how small the probability(1:infinity) doesnt mean it is true

your still making bets on infinity and calling it the only possable reality

its a mathamatical possability but a physical impossability ..... more paradox

I simply cannot understand why believers use that clip of sagan to try and prove their prospective...

I think it seems to be a desperate reach most of the time.

I DO think it is ironic that they post videos of Carl Sagan (an Atheist), from his show "The Cosmos"... Considering the first half of the series is nothing more than a big bang, Stellar Evolution, then Biological evolution explanation.

If I was forced to recognize a god... that god would be Carl Sagan...

The man's a genius.

Originally posted by nj2day
Stellar Evolution,

no need to use such filthy language and sound like a fundamentalist

my sensative ears burn and my muscles spasm at the missuse

i understand what you mean though and agree 100%

and can i just say for the record again ... Sagen rocks

notice how he said that to a person in flat land, the voice of the 3 dimensional apple would seem to be coming from inside them. i love that part.

a tribute to carl sagan

Originally posted by undo
notice how he said that to a person in flat land, the voice of the 3 dimensional apple would seem to be coming from inside them. i love that part.

your video perfectly displayed infity reduction

if you cut the pie over and over you get so small it stops becoming pie and becomes somthing else and you continue to cut it becomes a single atom open that up it becomes quarks

we dont know of anyway to go further then quarks but a quark isnt devine or all knowing or all powerful its a physical thing we don know how to make smaller or if its possible to

but people do the same thing with the supernatural(somthing made up) and find an allpowerful god

they find a thing and make it somthing entirely different, not becasue it is but becasue they want it to be, so what do we find when we cut god in 1/2 and look in there

this is why infinty reduction destroys religeon when you look closley at the paradox, where as the physical has a limit of disection the imaginary doesnt, and as my unicorn cut his way into god with a pointy horn when we open up god we find the unicorn

and if someone cuts the unicorn in half(im gonna be mad and probabily so will he in an imaginary sense) but what will we find there?

thats why the odds of a god doing it are dam near 1:infinity and the chance of picking the right one is 1:infinity theres always anothe god just waiting to be cut free

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by undo


in order to use your "flatland" comparison, we would have to assume that God is a physical being... if God is a physical being, and is present in other dimensions other than the 4 dimensions that we can see and feel, than he MUST be subject to the laws of physics...

What your flatland idea has shown isn't the theory you're wishing to put forward... Instead, you have shown that it isn't impossible for physical beings to exist outside of the 4 dimensions that we can see...

if he is subject to the laws of physics, than he certainly cannot be a god... instead he'd be some sort of wierd extra-dimensional entity, bound by the same physical laws as we are, which doesn't sound like what we'd think of as a deity...

The fallacy in your example using "flatland" is that you are using the word "Dimension" with the idea of "Alternative Universes"

however, If you're going to suggest the premise of Alternative Universes, you will find yourself in the same boat as trying to prove god. As we have not found any evidence to suggest they actually exist.

Now other dimensions, we can't see... but we can prove their existence mathematically...

reply to post by BlackProjects


Good thread, BP. Although I will admit a lot of it was over my head. lol Anyways, what I could grasp makes a lot of sense and is something I think a lot about. It really doesn't make much sense for an omnipresent God to base His length of a day off of our Earth's rotation. His perception is not ours. The only thing I can think of that would contradict this is how the creation account talks about the evening and the morning making 'the day.' Even then it could be interpreted in various ways.

reply to post by noobfun


i don't think size has any bearing
on intelligence.

reply to post by undo


it does when you get small enough...

Atomic particles are not "alive". Think of them as teeny tiny little rocks...

reply to post by undo


smart arse lol

i meant to say

if you cut the pie over and over it get so small it stops bieng pie

but you see the problem of invoking a paradox as evidence of divinity?

and this is the standard practice of religeon and faith

it relise on somthing that cant be real bieng real

such as god bieng both omnisceint and omnipotent they contradict each other in a never ending paradox of senility, its just hoped your ignorant enough to not pay attention and realise its fasle



[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

zomg i just proofed those calculations to check them out and their spot on! nice qed!

weather its true or not this kind of thinking is what makes math more fun, still not practical but it is fun. math has never proved anything in, what it does do is provide a groundwork for further research and this wold be an interesting direction since most engineers are wastes of life anyway they should retool them into better researchers instead of just tools.

Originally posted by tigpoppa
most engineers are wastes of life anyway they should retool them into better researchers instead of just tools.

my god(that i dont beleive in) man!

what insanity is this?

engineers should be held in as high esteme as their reserch counterparts

while researchers are dedicatingthier life to understanding, engineers dedicate thier life to making those findings practical, to make them worthy to improve everyones lives

without them all the research in the world would be worth nothing but its weight in paper

reply to post by noobfun


Please read the whole text and understand it, before attempting to write back.

As I have told you, in answering your U2U, I am Not against You!

This is Not intended to be a competition!

In your comment about my Philosophy.

Well there is no Philosophy intended to be involved here!

It is just a matter of being 'informed' or not being Informed....

"Nothing" is actually "Something", but do you understand this "Nothing" in its entirety????

I am referring to Quantum Mechanics!

No offence intended!

You think you understand but do you really in fact understand?????

Or are you ( I don't mean just You. The Word "You" is used in referring to the "Human Species", including my body also) like the ape, where the ape can't perceive the understanding of Maths and Calculus, we have trouble understanding concepts of immaterial subjects as Logic in abstract areas ourselves unless you are somehow the exception?

The Component "Nothing" has, or can exist, otherwise you would Not have this "word" Nothing in your Dictionary!




All, has in fact come from "Nothing".
Quantum mechanics also sees this to be the case.

But do you really understand the Component "Nothing"?

Even yourself believes this, or you and I would Not be here right now nor would we be discussing this.

In other words We (that is the All) have come from "Nothing" in the beginning, if in fact a Beginning exists at all with regard to The All and not to this Planet Earth.

Quantum mechanics recognise this.

But the whole question really revolves around the understanding of The Component of "Nothing", its make up and behaviour, because which ever way you look at it, All has come from "Nothing"!

If this is Not the case. then you must believe in a god of your own!

And You and I know this is Not the case!
But what is This "Nothing"?

The Subject of The Component "Nothing" is in fact very very complex and there is fare more to this Subject than what humankind is capable of fully understanding.

I mean if I ask one of my Professors to sit down and discus Nothing, when he has know knowledge in this subject, he will think I am crazy until he learns a little about the subject.

We can recognise when Nothing, is there or something is their can't we?

Often one says I see Nothing there or I can see Nothing!

So you see unconsciously we are able to recognise Nothing as Something!

The opposite, of what you have today being "Something", is "Nothing" but this is very strange this "Something/Nothing".

Its a bit like claiming that 0 (Zero) doesn't exist bout you and I both understand 0 (Zero) is a component of Maths.

It is of the similar nature where "Nothing" is also one of the components of the All.

But look, can you stop bring god into all this, because Our understand of The "Word" God is totally different in each of our cases.
Your understanding of god is in human termes and is Nothing at all like my knowledge of the "Word" God.

The "Word" God is a Component of the All and is Not human or any other Person, but is a Function in Geometric terms, from the lost Zionic Language, that was Unspoken but was instead a language that communicated on a Geometric Level.

The True Meaning of The "Word" God has been lost!

Unless you understand the Workings of The Geometry of any Geometric Language, it is impossible for you to understand Zionic or the Back engineering, of the unspoken Zoinic Language.

But anyway if you want to understand the universe, then you must first understand the Infinite component that is called "Nothing".

But as I have said "Nothing" and "Something" are two components that exist as one.

As far as I am aware, this is the only pair of 'Opposite' components that exist as one!

This is why in Quantum mechanics, the component of "Nothing" is said to be Unstable and this is absolutely true.

But if "Something" and "Nothing" are Opposites then what is the "third component" that binds these Opposites together?

This bond is something totally different, than "Something" and "Nothing"!

This third component is in the nature of, 'the comparing these first two Components', "Something" and "Nothing".

This is where humankind, is having great difficulty, understanding, because this ability to compare two components, with regard to each other, comes back to the Question of Awareness.

It appears that Awareness, came about from the Instability of The Component of "Nothing" brought on by the existence of "Something" being the component of "Nothing".

But this is a huge subject on, or of its own!

Yes I know it sounds like Madness to humankind, but try and disprove this if you can?????

You may be able to write all sorts of things against what I have said, but if you look at a Video mentioning Quantum Mechanics on this thread, the guy mentions that "Nothing" was in the beginning and that this Nothing is Unstable!

So to understand all this you can't use Philosophy nor can you understand this in the Physical sense.

But this is Not to say it is spiritual either!
Nor does Not involve anything of so called Spirituality!

You are dealing with a form of Logic, that is immaterial and Abstract.

So you could say what produced your universe and others, is a liar or a deceiver in the way you put it, in your Understanding!

But this word deceiver is Not intended to be used in the context of Betrayal when I agree with you on this!

But so too, is the TV or Computer is a deceiver of sorts.

It converts from an electrical nature to a Picture or movie on screen.

So your TV and Computer are Converters or Decoders or translators.

The TV and Computer is also a deceiver, in that it produces pictures in front of you which is made from different workings than what is in the electronic components and software...

But you don't complain about your computer or TV now do you?

The only time it betrays you, is when it breaks down.... LOL..

Originally posted by nj2day
it does when you get small enough...

Atomic particles are not "alive". Think of them as teeny tiny little rocks...

Surely those atomic rocks get even tinnier... question is; are they still not "alive" at their subatomic quantum levels?

Of course the 'alive' quantity is rather ambiguous. How about, at the subatomic levels, are these tiny little rocks, really separate rocks? If they are ultimately one, inter-connected rock, then that would in my eyes give credence to the idea that these rocks were created from a unified counterpart i.e a truly interconnected Universe, with truly interconnected origins. That may or not equate to God, but it does challenge the notion of separate little rocks

...I personally believe the material world is an electric projection of God's dreaming brain I offer no proof, only my new-age quackery

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller

Please read the whole text and understand it, before attempting to write back.

As I have told you, in answering your U2U, I am Not against You!

your right we are not in comptition to each other

we may have different opinions of the same thing, i just explore your point of view(as i do my own) if i find inconsitencies or logical fallacies i highlight them so that others reading your post and so that you your self become aware of them and can make a better judgement of that belief

In your comment about my Philosophy.

Well there is no Philosophy intended to be involved here!

It is just a matter of being 'informed' or not being Informed....

i quite agree

"Nothing" is actually "Something", but do you understand this "Nothing" in its entirety????

I am referring to Quantum Mechanics!

No offence intended!

none taken

You think you understand but do you really in fact understand?????

somthings yes, other things not as well as id like and other still i have no knowledge or understanding of

im human just like everyone else

Or are you ( I don't mean just You. The Word "You" is used in referring to the "Human Species", including my body also) like the ape, where the ape can't perceive the understanding of Maths and Calculus, we have trouble understanding concepts of immaterial subjects as Logic in abstract areas ourselves unless you are somehow the exception?

im an exception, as is everyone else

The Component "Nothing" has, or can exist, otherwise you would Not have this "word" Nothing in your Dictionary!

its in the dictionary not becasue it is a thing but an absence of anything

as dark is not a thing but an absence of light

All, has in fact come from "Nothing".
Quantum mechanics also sees this to be the case.

But do you really understand the Component "Nothing"?

quatum mechanics?

not my field my knowledge is sketchy .. i really should look into it but even the quantum mathmatitions say the only thing quantum mechanics teaches us is we know nothing about it

maybe ill wait till they have started turning hypothesis into theory

Even yourself believes this, or you and I would Not be here right now nor would we be discussing this.

In other words We (that is the All) have come from "Nothing" in the beginning, if in fact a Beginning exists at all with regard to The All and not to this Planet Earth.

Quantum mechanics recognise this.

But the whole question really revolves around the understanding of The Component of "Nothing", its make up and behaviour, because which ever way you look at it, All has come from "Nothing"!

but why give it a name and imbue magical powers to it as religeon does ... this is deffinatley struggle to understand

If this is Not the case. then you must believe in a god of your own!

And You and I know this is Not the case!

else id be a thiest not an athiest

But what is This "Nothing"?

The Subject of The Component "Nothing" is in fact very very complex and there is fare more to this Subject than what humankind is capable of fully understanding.

I mean if I ask one of my Professors to sit down and discus Nothing, when he has know knowledge in this subject, he will think I am crazy until he learns a little about the subject.

We can recognise when Nothing, is there or something is their can't we?

usually with the exception of screwey brain action such as mirages and halucinations and hearing things that arnt really there

our sensory equipment really isnt up to the task ..... if only evolution was faster and we could force natural selcetion and mutation to help out

Often one says I see Nothing there or I can see Nothing!

a poor missuse use of the word

So you see unconsciously we are able to recognise Nothing as Something!

grasping conclusion misuse of the language dosnt equate to your conclusion

The opposite, of what you have today being "Something", is "Nothing" but this is very strange this "Something/Nothing".

true

Its a bit like claiming that 0 (Zero) doesn't exist bout you and I both understand 0 (Zero) is a component of Maths

It is of the similar nature where "Nothing" is also one of the components of the All..

but maths and the physical are 2 seperate things
in the physical its not a thing but an absence of things

But look, can you stop bring god into all this, because Our understand of The "Word" God is totally different in each of our cases.
Your understanding of god is in human termes and is Nothing at all like my knowledge of the "Word" God.

true but the probability of its existance and of you picking the right one from the line up is the same as anyones

The "Word" God is a Component of the All and is Not human or any other Person, but is a Function in Geometric terms, from the lost Zionic Language, that was Unspoken but was instead a language that communicated on a Geometric Level.

sounds like the physacist god

The True Meaning of The "Word" God has been lost!

Unless you understand the Workings of The Geometry of any Geometric Language, it is impossible for you to understand Zionic or the Back engineering, of the unspoken Zoinic Language.

But anyway if you want to understand the universe, then you must first understand the Infinite component that is called "Nothing".

But as I have said "Nothing" and "Something" are two components that exist as one.

but nothing in quantum is slightly different to nothing in everything else

quantum makes everything a little crazier probabily one of the reasons i havnt spent as much time looking into it

This is where humankind, is having great difficulty, understanding, because this ability to compare two components, with regard to each other, comes back to the Question of Awareness.

It appears that Awareness, came about from the Instability of The Component of "Nothing" brought on by the existence of "Something" being the component of "Nothing".

But this is a huge subject on, or of its own!

Yes I know it sounds like Madness to humankind, but try and disprove this if you can?????

remember the burden of proof is on the propser

we shouldnt have to disprove it you should have to prove it, reverse logic is illogic

You may be able to write all sorts of things against what I have said, but if you look at a Video mentioning Quantum Mechanics on this thread, the guy mentions that "Nothing" was in the beginning and that this Nothing is Unstable!

So to understand all this you can't use Philosophy nor can you understand this in the Physical sense.

But this is Not to say it is spiritual either!
Nor does Not involve anything of so called Spirituality!

i completley agree, but i wasnt the one saying it was

You are dealing with a form of Logic, that is immaterial and Abstract.

So you could say what produced your universe and others, is a liar or a deceiver in the way you put it, in your Understanding!

But this word deceiver is Not intended to be used in the context of Betrayal when I agree with you on this!

but if it was a written program ala matrix style then the creator is a deciever inthat he made it a reality that it isnt unless we are just generated components of the program also and not alive and concious we just think we are as we are programmed that way(which in its self is a form of deciet)

But you don't complain about your computer or TV now do you?

The only time it betrays you, is when it breaks down.... LOL..

but unlike gods they dont demand we pray and follow thier rules why they willingly and knowingly break them

the god you appear to be talking about seems more like the type metioned by physacists not an allknowing all seeing bieng but an ultimate law of nature its self

or am i missunderstanding?

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

great post, I started a thread not too long ago with a similar topic

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by noobfun


My Words:-

Often one says I see Nothing there or I can see Nothing!

Your Words:-

"a poor missuse use of the word"

My Words:-

So you see unconsciously, we are able to recognise Nothing as Something!

Your Words:-

"grasping conclusion misuse of the language dosnt equate to your conclusion"


In our language over here, this term is often used!

I guess, referring to the use of the "word" nothing, different English than yours, different culture??? LOL

"There is Nothing out there" or "Nothing is in there" or if you ask a Child what is in an empty cup? the Child will answer,

"Nothing!"

So even a Young child, recognises the "word" Nothing and when it can see, there is Nothing in the cup.

Nothing is Something which is as you said nothing!

But you have to understand the Word Nothing as a you said yourself it is a state of non-existence in your understanding!

So you see it exists as a state! whether material or just as a concept!

Non- existence!

Which is Nothing!

Why are Humans so terrified of Nothing??? LOL

Humankind is So Funny, aren't they. Hmmm need more Bananas and Peanuts don't we? LOL

Yea I know I am one too (Primate) but I love the experience of this Primate!

Your words:-

"we shouldnt have to disprove it you should have to prove it, reverse logic is illogic "


Look Evolution, can Not be proven!!!

Only in your Mind and those that want to believe in it, which is of course, your freedom of expression.

But this is Not a case of Absolute Reality or Truth.

It is the belief of yours and others only!

This is Not a good foundation for Truth!

But that does Not mean that it was the case but only appears as such in some cases!

It is like saying, "if it looks possible to humankind, it is a fact!"

(It remains a possibility at its very best and that is all a Possibility!)

I do Not accept Evolution or Religion!

As both Groups of people, are similar in Nature.

Neither these Two Sects, can stand back and View the Whole Picture, as they are part of it, and are unable to disconnect to see themselves being part of the situation.

Your words, used by me if I may?

Quote;

We shouldn't have to disprove it (evolution) you should have to prove it, reverse logic is illogic

It is a bit like a modern day religion.
Evolution has just become another subject to replace a religion of your own understanding, that is flawed in the first place, referring to Roman doctrine, so why quote mumbo jumbo as in Roman Doctrine for your argument?

Many evolutionist are only following a theory, for one reason or another, that has absolutely no foundation, in saying that, evolution has happened.

The truth is, it appears to have happened in the application of your own psychology, involving your own personal beliefs, according to the acceptance of certain applied rules, that govern the theory!

Sound awfully religious to me, or at the very least, of a similar nature, and similar peoples?????

The whole sect of Evolutionist's is Anti Life, Anti Intelligence so they can feel justified, and feel secure. otherwise you can't handle this experience, as it leaves you naked, and the possibility you are may Not be in Control after all.

I think this is proven to you, at the end of your so called life span.

But what is wrong with that? You may then be able to discover Truth! (Not Religion or Evolution of automatic adaptation)

Evolution is "theory", laying down a set of rules that suits human beings.
Because it is human understanding and not necessarily what has taken place, but only appears to have, governed by the conditions, you place on your understanding, while Not knowing All.

Part of the Knowledge, is a very, very, dangerous thing, just as you would say, the same is about your understanding of Roman Doctrine, it is in your understanding is B.S. in the way it is presented, you would probably be correct.

Look if Intelligence was Not involved, in the production of your Universe, How come you think you are Intelligent?

Where did your Intelligence come from?

Certainly Not your Brain.

Perhaps another Source called awareness!

Your Consciousness is aware of your Flesh, but your Flesh is Certainly Not aware of Your Consciousness!

The manipulation of twisting Ideas, does Not give Truth.

See things as they are Not as you want them to be!

Humankind love to act like lawyers in a court room!

It gives themselves a sense of purpose and self importance perhaps even the feeling of power, which is Vanity!

Just because any one, has a better argument it is Not Grounds for Truth.

Many a criminal, has got off through a good Lawyer, but this does Not say that criminal. is Innocent!

It just means His Lawyer, had the most persuasive argument!

If humankind really understood they would not be in the trouble they are now, Socially Financially, and environmentally!

The reason so many are suffering, is because understanding is missing, or much has been misunderstood, or they are simply Not informed!

Look, humankind in spite of everything, can't even cure the common cold, and your hospitals are full of the suffering and Dying.

If you have the answers and the knowledge you think you have, why are people in so much fertiliser.

Surely people don't like suffering do they?

It is easy to just dismiss this, as Oh well, it happens in life!

This is a Cop out!

The Fact is, we Don't understand the All!

Even all your governments have massive problems.

Thy can't be overcome by men's logic, as they are unable to understand the simplest of things.

Look, you can't even get a person back to the moon, let alone wanting to explore a universe.

Human kind including myself are in a zoo like Prison, that is called Earth.

Lack of knowledge is our jailer!






[edit on 29-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]