Ten Myths Conservatives Believe About Progressives

Let's not let this good discussion deteriorate.

reply to post by grover


Then you must not read most of the post here that denigrate, insult, belittle Bush with a definite tilt towards attacking the person not the policies. Someone just provided a sample for you amusement.

Anyhow, Have a good Holiday, the Lions suck, but at least I have my Dinner.

reply to post by Tricky63


Think about this:
Did prohibition keep alcohol out of the USA?
Does the war on drugs keep drugs out of the school yard?
Do law abiding people represent a hazard to the police?
If firearms are banned would criminals have any reason not to enter occupied homes and do as they please?

Checkout Switzerland. The swiss are not known for having a major problem with crime. This is from the Supreme Court
supreme.lp.findlaw.com/supreme_court/briefs/07-290/07-290.mer.ami.resp.retoff.pdf -

In addition, Switzerland, perhaps the least bellicose Western nation, has earned its reputation through a national commitment to individual firearm ownership and marksmanship. Swiss citizens are almost universally armed and are expected to defend the country should it be attacked. The commitment of the Swiss to individual firearm ownership exemplifies the idea of peace through strength.

The Swiss militia encompasses every able-bodied male between the ages of 20-50, who must keep a rifle and militia equipment in their homes, coupled with the strong Swiss tradition of competitive marksmanship: “Since 1815 the Swiss have not fought in a foreign war, yet they have maintained the tradition of a citizen army and rifle and pistol shooting are among the nation’s most popular sports with almost every village having a shooting range.”

Despite sitting at the crossroads of Europe, neutral Switzerland was left alone by Nazi Germany during World War II—not because the German military was unable to invade—but because it was unwilling; German military officers determined that the resistance of the heavily armed Swiss citizens would make the cost too great. The armed population is no bluff. Swiss militiamen are not required to turn in their weapons upon completion of their obligation. It is said that every Swiss home contains at least three weapons, for not only is there the militia system, but there is a long tradition of civilian ownership of firearms and, as pointed out before, rifle and pistol shooting are virtually the national sports of Switzerland.

Guns are just a tool, making them illegal does not solve basic problems it only makes the people of the USA helpless in the face of bullies, be they criminals, politicos or foreign aggressors.

I am not a hunter and I do not like guns especially after having one shoved in my face at three in the morning by a thief. But I do understand they are necessary for protecting the freedom of this country. I hope I have at least made my view clear and the reasons why.

First post-
I wonder what am?

I believe in me.
I believe in you.
I believe in taking care of myself, not requiring (read: taxing) other people in order to have myself taken care of.
If I want to go to the doctor, I should pay for it myself, just as I would pay for the pack of smokes that might cause me to go there.
I believe my personal property is mine.
I believe money I earn is my personal property as it is tangible.
I believe that charity should be given locally, not nationally.
I believe if you have the means, you should share with others, but should not be forced to. For some reason, I don't think a forced philanthropist would be as content with his actions, and fostering an 'entitlement' mentality doesn't seem very wise either.
I believe the government should protect the borders of our nation, and by extension guarantee the safety of my personal property within those borders.
I believe the government... well everyone for that matter... has no right to restrict anything I choose do so long as it does not adversely interfere with anyone else's persuits nor puts anyone else in danger.
I believe I should pay some taxes, but only as required to facilitate the operations of government, not social programs I do not have access to.
I believe abortion is a 'personal' choice... to be made by the mother and father collectively, or solely the mother in case of pregnancy resulting from a crime (rape, incest, etc.).
I believe that should a woman abort her child, the father should likewise be able to abort his child support.
I believe same sex couples should have all the rights and benefits afforded to traditionally married couples. I don't believe it is marriage though... just as an adopted child was not given birth to by the adoptive parents, neither can same sex partners be married, by definition.
I don't believe in hate crimes: murder is murder, violence is violence, slander is slander. We don't need special rules for certain 'groups'. That only further serves to subdivide our people and encite resentment. Teaching that injury is a crime, and everyone is equally protected and prosecuted under the law should be sufficient.

I could go on, but I feel much more would be passing the point of diminishing returns, and adding too much fodder for the extremists on either side.

I will say this... after the 2000 election many of us liberals really hoped that bush minor would be as he claimed... a uniter not a divider... after that ugly campaign. And for awhile after 9/11 he was but like I said he blew it just as he blew the goodwill most of the world wished us after 9/11.

By 2004 we had seen bush minor for what he was... a corporate shill who would sell out the rest of us to his corporate owners in a heartbeat if they asked him to. That he pandered to some of the worst our nation has to offer as opposed to the best.

By 2006 most of the rest of the population had come to see him that way as well... even many of those who shouted insults, threw eggs and threats at those of us who dared stand publicly in protest during the lead up to his splendid little war... had come to see him that way.

Barack Obama could possibly end up one of the best presidents in our lifetime... I certainly hope so but I have no illusion... he is after all a politician.

Still there are those like RR who will never except it if he does turn out well and always will wish him ill and failure. And it doesn't matter why... whether its because he's black or a Democrat or a liberal... RR will never accept him and there are many on the right like him.

We were willing at least to give bush minor a chance and hope for the best.

None of those I know personally on the left, normal, basic Americans, who love their country and want to see it live up to its much touted ideals.... wish bush minor ill or failure.

After 8 years we just wish he would shut up and go away. He has long since lost our respect and has lost the majorities regard as well...

... and it is not due to those of us on the left but to his own actions and policies.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by grover]

reply to post by grover

I do not consider myself Liberal or Conservative. I certainly hope and pray Obama does not continue the erosion of our rights. With a Democratic Congress he certainly has that chance.

What he does with farming, the USDA and the FDA is critical. If the Ag-Corps have their way it will be impossible for individuals to grow food. That is my litmus test for Obama. Will he protect the right of individuals to grow food without strangling red tape or will another small business that was open to individuals be closed

The WTO and other International Organizations have a whole set of stiffling regs the FDA and USDA are planning to impose on the USA under the guise of "Free Trade" requirements. If Obama and the Democratic Congress goes along they are in the pocket of the Corporations. The first of the regs (bitterly fought by farmers) goes into effect in January 2009 WITHOUT the benefit of law, and despite the bill being defeated in Congress. Will Obama and Congress listen to those who feed us all and the locavories and organic food lovers?

reply to post by crimvelvet


Remember Bill Clinton did away with farm subsidies the vast majority of which do not benefit ma and pa farms but agri-corporations like monsantos and ADM and one of bush minor's very first acts was to reinstate them.

reply to post by grover

Remember Bill Clinton did away with farm subsidies the vast majority of which do not benefit ma and pa farms but agri-corporations like monsantos and ADM and one of bush minor's very first acts was to reinstate them.

Yes I am well aware of that. The subsides are for commodities like rice, corn,wheat and soybeans not fruits and veggies. Those subsidies also make factory farming of livestock competitive with grass fed. To put it bluntly they help the rich folks doing mono-culture farming not the family farmers doing traditional farming.

What I am referring to is
1. Premise ID it is a contract that places a permanent encumbrance on the deed and allows search without a warrant. (A friend had a USDA type go through his frig)

2. Animal ID the farmer become a stakeholder ie a third party holding another's (US gov't) property. Tag numbers start with 840 denoting a US financial document. (US debt collateral maybe)

3. Tracking: The farmer has to report every move of every animal on and off the property to the US database within 24 hours. We expect fees of $6-10 per animal per transaction

4. Penalties up to $1,000,000 and ten years in jail for paperwork problems.

5. Good farming Practices. A prison camp setup around you farm, medical on everyone in contact and logging everything done, feed, lot number, signature from delivery personnel plus keep samples of feed for five years. (It molds or get eaten by hatching bugs in a few months so you need a freezer)

6. FDA will be following USDA lead for fruit and veggies including the RFID tags!


Think I am nuts read these, they are not too long
Guide to Good Farming Practices . www.oie.int...

Safe and Secure Food Act of 2005 www.govtrack.us...


As I said what is done with the above plan is my litmus test for Obama.

I made the suggestion at www.change.gov... that instead of subsides how about government funded wind turbines in the pastures and fields and solar panels on farm building roofs. Meter the electric to the power company and they pay the farmer every month. I think that would be a win win type solution instead of pouring money into the pocket of Monsanto and Cargill via commodities. You could put a cap on how much the farmer is earning so those with less than $100,000 GROSS are eligible

Originally posted by crimvelvet

As I said what is done with the above plan is my litmus test for Obama.

I made the suggestion at www.change.gov... that instead of subsides how about government funded wind turbines in the pastures and fields and solar panels on farm building roofs. Meter the electric to the power company and they pay the farmer every month. I think that would be a win win type solution instead of pouring money into the pocket of Monsanto and Cargill via commodities. You could put a cap on how much the farmer is earning so those with less than $100,000 GROSS are eligible

I hope Obama takes your suggestion seriously (and that he actually reads what's on his websites). I have cousins who are small farmers. The idea seems excellent, and would solve both the problem of farm subsidies that don't go to those who really need them and the need for alternative sources of energy.

I saw a story on the news last night about people who don't even live in the U.S. getting farm subsidies (I believe it's from the USDA?).

I think I may be getting away a little from the subject of this thread. For what it's worth I'm left of center, and don't care where you are on the political spectrum. A good idea is a good idea.

The notion that All liberals and all Democrats are all wrong all of the time is simplistic to the extreme and it caters to those who have no real understanding of the issues... the reverse is equally simplistic that All conservatives and all Republicans are all wrong all of the time... to suggest that only one party has the key to keeping America great... or that only one group are true patriots is just plain idiotic.

The real world is far more complex than such tripe.... but there are plenty who believe them and you will never convince them of their shallowness.

Lovely.

You all agree that conservatives are ignorant bigots. And my post back on page one was a great example, supposedly of such bigotry.

And yet none of you, not one of you offered any commentary about that post.

I addressed the meat of the OP. everyone else just talks about how horrible the people on the other side are;

nothing about ideas.

I didn't offer any commentary about your post because it doesn't deserve one. It is exactly that sort of simplistic nonsense I've been talking about.

Read my most recent one above yours to see my reasons why though you won't accept it.


[edit on 29-11-2008 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
I didn't offer any commentary about your post because it doesn't deserve one.

Sorry, I mistook this thread for an invitation to discussion.


Turns out is just another "liberal pride" parade. By all means, enjoy yourselves as you congratulate each other on being so smarmy.


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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Turns out is just another "liberal pride" parade. By all means, enjoy yourselves as you congratulate each other on being so smarmy.

No... it was not worth commenting upon because it was nothing but an attack post just like this one.

There is nothing intelligent there worth wasting my time on.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Turns out is just another "liberal pride" parade. By all means, enjoy yourselves as you congratulate each other on being so smarmy.

When you want to discuss something besides the childish attitude that all liberals and all democrats are all bad all of the time... I will be happy to engage you.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by grover]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Turns out is just another "liberal pride" parade. By all means, enjoy yourselves as you congratulate each other on being so smarmy.


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I wonder how the conservatives would be reacting now if Palin/McCain would have won?

Smarmy perhaps? I seem to remember some smarmyness back in oo & o4. I don't remember the GOP being very conciliatory in the past 8 yrs.
Do I need to youtube up a Rush L. video?

It's just politics.

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

[edit on 29-11-2008 by whaaa]

OK folks, let's play nicely.

reply to post by RRconservative

I finally figured out I am not Conservative, or liberal or progressive or whatever...I am an Alternative. AS in there has GOT to be A better ALTERNATIVE than Conservative or progressive, because BOTH have sure messed up my country.