I think missionaries should be outlawed

reply to post by asmeone2


The ignorance on this thread is astounding.

Missionaries have done FAR, FAR, FAR MORE GOOD to a vast array of cultures than they have done harm.

I've been a missionary to China for quite a long time.

It's idiocy to think that missionaries are destroying Chinese culture.

China has evidently had Christians from New Testament times.

Also, the TEMPLE OF HEAVEN included worship practices that seem to come straight out of the Judeo/Christian Old Testament. Those practices were carried on for AT LEAST 5,000 years and possibly 7,000 years until they were stopped in 1911.

Many Chinese characters have embedded in them many Biblical truths--some before the Biblically prophesied events even took place . . . such as RIGHTEOUS is composed of A LAMB over a person--which is the Christian story of Christ's sacrifice in a nutshell.

And a large ship is composed of 8 people in a boat. Remember Noah.

A few of such could be classified as coincidence. But there are dozens upon dozens of such.

Hospitals and school as well as literacy programs BEGAN by missionaries have benefitted cultures of every stripe all around the globe.

Yes, some so called "Christians" with more RELIGION than Christianity have done horrific things as have many atheists and others of every value orientation known to man. However, Christian missionaries have a splendid overall record of bringing health, education and a list of modernizing benefits to a long list of people groups.

I recall an anthropologist I was talking to at my BA program in Flagstaff--on the edge of the Dineh/Navajo reservation--the larges tribe in the USA. This anthropologist was very practical and empathetic toward the Dineh. She went on and on about how some anthropologists were outraged at how caucasians had changed Dineh culture. Why couldn't they just leave the Dineh with their hogans etc. etc. alone.

This anthropologist noted that they irate anthropologists were quite happy in their carpeted homes with airconditioning etc. etc. and certainly thankful they didn't have to live in a hogan with a dirt floor; no bathroom; no laundry; no refrigeration for food etc.

Methinks the biases of folks on this thread are outrageously uninformed and horrifically narrow.

However, stand by . . . the world is going to be just as many on this thread will evidently like it for at least 3.5-7 years. The authentic Christians will be hunted down and murdered--probably by the millions. Obama and those behind him have it all planned and scheduled.

Thankfully, the world won't be quite freed of such good souls. Instead, those cleansed from the planet will be the selfish, the arrogant, the murderers, liars, . . . evil doers.

But first, they will gloat as their champion from hell is briefly in overt charge.

Interesting times we live in.

Thankfully, missinories are key one of the main events--Christ's return . . . when every last people group has heard the Gospel. Reportedly, that can be accomplished in as little as 12-25 years depending on the resources devoted to it.

MARANATHA.

this world is full of Godless people like the originator of this thread. A world without God is an evil world. Christianity is the only thing holding this world together. Look at the 10 commandments, they show of a Good all loving God. People keep saying that christians hate gays... Thats not true, we dont hate the people, we dont approve of their sin (homosexuality). God made man and woman for each other, not man/man or woman/woman. People keep saying that some can be born gay, thats not true, that comes from bad morals. Take a look at history, as soon as government took the bible out of schools thats when crime skyrocketed.

reply to post by BO XIAN


I believe they are referring to native tribes and aboriginal people when you read about people losing their culture. The ones who live the old ways, who's traditions and culture have been handed down generation after generation.

I don't understand this logic, why would we want to outlaw missionaries?

From what missionaries I've seen they don't make a conscious effort to actually force their religion on me. We would outlaw them just because they have a different opinion then ours, how does that make any sense? It's only when they start to forcefully push their religion onto you, that is when you have just cause to outlaw then from the country. No one is putting a gun to your head telling you to become a christian.

-Ign0RanT

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Sorry Catholics ..but hey ....all of that extra nonbiblical stuff yall believe in is wrong ...

I'm going to leave it at this. You don't know what Catholicism teaches. Some of your beliefs about Catholicism are wrong. There are plenty of areas of reasonable debate where non-Catholics can take issue with Catholic dogma or doctrine. Your taking issue with things that Catholics don't actually believe in or practice demeans any argument you may later have that actually has merit.

Whether it is intended or not, you are engaging in strawman argumentative.

Eric

reply to post by AshleyD

Your use of the word 'support' is what is tricky. Would I support it, as in, thinking it is a good idea? No. Would I support it as in being respectful in acknowledging it is their decision to take that risk? Yes.

Sorry I wasn't trying to be tricky but that is what I ment by 'support', the second one you mention. Well I guess you can see where I'm going with this by now? Time for one last hypothetical?

How much would you respect and aknowledge the decision if the shoe was on the other foot?

There is approximately one million homeless in your country and many more that are in need of aid esp with your public heath system. How would you feel if people decided to 'sneak' into your country to help out? A whole lot of ethiopians or haitians or people from anywhere missionaries go going into America.

With no ID checks, no quarentine, no criminal checks, no passport, no gaurentee they will ever leave. Would you be all cool with that?

I had never put any thought into the negatives associated with modern day missionary work. If for no other reason, I appreciate the OP for giving me something to think about.

There seems to be three main concerns that are being discussed here.

1) The negative ramifications of missionary work in the past.
2) The destruction of local cultures via the introduction of new beliefs.
3) The relative value of Christianity vs. the religions of the people being proselytized to.

Regarding #3 first:

I realize that there are counter arguments, such as the sophistication of rhetoric and official training of those proselytizing during missions, but I believe that much like Paul, this would fall under the market place of ideas. If the ideas of Christianity appeal to the people who are being 'preached' to, then they will be adopted.

I understand that there are flaws in that argument and that it doesn't take into account variables such as the possible lack of education in logic of the people native to the area or the sophistry skills of the missionary; but it also doesn't take into account the difficulty in moving people from the ideas and religious beliefs that have been inculcated since childhood and fostered by their community.

#2

I believe that modernity is a reasonable goal. In general, I believe that western ideals are worth spreading and fighting for (at the least on the battleground of ideas). Of course, this is general statement of a belief that for the sake of brevity lacks detail and nuance.

#1

We should learn from the mistakes made by missionaries that came before us. Forced conversions, lack of respect for native cultures, tying humanitarian aid to conversions and other tactics are reprehensible and should not be tolerated, let alone practiced.


Eric

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
The thing is they would have to be made illegal in every country and corner of the planet.....

But I AGREE with you in theorey.........I find it reprehensible that 'missionaries' are allowed to go anywhere and crush the belief systems of cultures. I think if certain individual people WANT to know about the revisionist historical belief systems of any religion they can REQUEST that information.......if it is not requested in writing then no missionaries should be allowed to knock at the door, OR invade the village........

Case in point: the movie out on DVD called....THE END OF THE SPEAR......where so called Christian missionaries go deep into the Amazon to try and 'save' the people and completely mess them all up.........but, from the movies POV the 'messing up' is a very good thing.



[edit on 14-11-2008 by theRiverGoddess]

If Missionaries were not allowed to go out to preach in remote Tribes.....

Then what the hell would those Natives eat?



[edit on 11/16/2008 by Ironclad]

reply to post by cruzion


I gleefully second that opinion.

So it should be a crime for my brother to be educated, know more than his native language, help others, and express one of the rights we are granted under the Constitution to others around the world? BUT it should be completely legal to express other democratic or Constitutional ideals and to allow the state to provide for others based upon what the state (or global government) decides they need?

I guess some just don't agree with our forefathers. What do I expect from a society that is indoctrinated rather than capable of free thought - they are taught we are smarter than our forefathers after all?

reply to post by HillbillyHippie


No it should not be crime. But it should not come along with a "conversion condition attached to it". Please read the first post I made on this thread. You will find it most enlightening concerning the methods of these "saviours".

reply to post by Ismail


Also, bear in mind that rest of the world is not America, or the Vatican. Nor does it need to be. Who are you to export your three hundred year old culture to a country with over 3 millenaries of cultural devellopement ?
Go help, sure. Go to try and make people see things like you in exchange for food, when they are dying of hunger, thats easy and immoral.

reply to post by Ismail


Man, do you have reality screwed up. There has never been a condition for people to convert to Christ in order to eat - the secular humanist government agenda DOES require birth control and sterilization in exchange for food, on the other hand. Can you say True Evil?

reply to post by HillbillyHippie


True evil is what missonaries did in my first post. Read it.

Well then immigration should be outlawed too, because it also DESTROYS cultures. ;]


Also, saying that it should be outlawed is just a point of view btw, I take it the OP is a atheist?

reply to post by Steve B


Look at your question. In that scenario, we're no longer talking about legal missionary work, which is the topic of the thread: Outlawing missionary work. If they were 'sneaking' into America, then they are already doing something illegal. It really has little to do with making missionary work that is currently legal, illegal. Your question is asking me about oranges when the thread is about a hypothetical apple scenario.

However, to answer your question, more than anything I would think it was sad that they actually had to come over here, to one of the 'wealthiest' nations in the world (comparatively, national debt aside! LOL!), to help the people us Americans have failed. One thing you have to realize and what should come as no surprise to you, is that to a Christian, God's laws are above man's laws and whether the world likes it or not, Christians share a commaradariewith each other. So if a missionary came over here to help the poor and needy, I will again tell you the truth instead of what you want to hear: Yes, I would be supportive.

But this gets us back to your statement about ID, passports, criminal checks, etc. With it currently being legal, these hypothetical missionaries would be in check. If we outlawed it like the OP proposes, THAT is when we force the work into the underground. Missionary work absolutely will not stop just because it is made illegal. That is a fact. So by outlawing it, all that will be done is cause missionaries to bypass the regulations and security checks other travelers undergo. The problems in your hypothetical scenario only arises if it was illegal.

All this stuff about 'missionaries pass around diseases' would only be exacerbated if it was illegal.

reply to post by Ismail


I did read, and I totally disagree. Your post is based on a belief that religion is pushed on others and is dangerous. I belief your assumption is very incorrect. Do you have any scientific or statistical evidence that ALL missionaries do as you say (of course you don't)...

Your post is bigoted towards those who help aide the world. Have you done proper research into what missionaries have done for the world? Have you forgotten that Chrsitian Missionaries have brought western science to the world as well?

Chrisitian Missionaries have brought medicine (western) to the local tribes of many countries (which is opinion as well as is religion as far as such people are concerned).

How many people have missionaries saved? Or would that be considered bigoted for liberals to consider?

reply to post by flyingwoody
Very good post. I suspect outlawing missionaries might be a little harsh though.

This again is one person or a group of people trying to force and bribe their belief system onto another group.

But currently this is the usual way it is done. Groups that help another with NO STRINGS ATTACHED are rare. Nothing it seems comes free. You want the meal in the homeless shelter you have to listen to a sermon first. Sad, we just can't help a needy soul just for the sake of helping them with no agenda.

This is not "salvation" per se but a power trip, a "You should / will believe what I think is the correct belief".

So many of earths cultures have been lost to "missionaries" and while many people think they are "doing good" how about "doing good" ie: building shelters, getting clean water into villages, clothing and feeding another fellow human being just for the sake of being kind with no strings attached, no "now lets hold hands and pray bull shi_". How about charity just for the sake of charity.

Trying to "convert" the rest of the planet to your belief system is in my opinon arrogant and pompous.

We have many American Indians that are "lost souls" because of the zealous missionaries. A beautiful and deeply spiritual culture that was almost totally destroyed by the white man.

Same thing now with all the missionaries going over to Africa. Cultures rich with "natural" knowledge being washed away.

Mankind it seems has gotten away from being a spiritual being to being a "religious" being.

If everyone did just one random act of kindness, with no strings attached and no "glory" expected, this could be heaven on earth.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by ofhumandescent]

Nothing it seems comes free. You want the meal in the homeless shelter you have to listen to a sermon first. Sad, we just can't help a needy soul just for the sake of helping them with no agenda.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by ofhumandescent]

Well you have to understand that to send anyone to a brown country to help them see the light, you have to have money. The people that stump up that money to go train the heathens, they are under pressure from higher ups to increase influence and control in the world. You can kinda see higher priests as middle-management, area managers, priests as managers and team leaders, and bishops, cardinals etc as upper management, ceo's and vice presidents.
'Saving souls' is just corporate religious-speak for get them under our influence.