The Christians hating gays contradiction

reply to post by John Matrix

1. I will stop you at B. There is no genetic link. The "I was born that way" idea was debunked decades ago. It's a lifestyle choice often made as a result of poverty, parental neglect, parental abuse, or a result of molestation by an adult male.

Wanna back up that statement or just throw out baseless claims and hope they stick? Cos I know that there are many biological factors involved in setting one's sexual orientation- most of which are from birth. Info - learn it!

Its very well established that this occurs from birth, just from brain mapping alone. The thing they havn't completely established is the complete genetics, though many studies demonstrate a larger number than average exists in families. There are many who think that the biochemical baths in fetal development play the largest role. That is why the word used most commonly is "born" rather than genetically predestined. As long as one of the biggest companies that studies our genetics is linked to Rockefeller, we won't be finding out too much truth except via other studies. The human genome project produces findings that are less likely to believed for that reason.

That its established firmly that homosexuals are "born" with their preference, denying them rights is criminal.

reply to post by mystiq

That its established firmly that homosexuals are "born" with their preference, denying them rights is criminal.

Yes, but I would go further to emphasise the point: Established that all are born with their preference. The same systems that produce homosexuality also produce heterosexuality and every single variant in between, including my own- right in the middle.

[edit on 18/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

I completely agree with that. Another thing I believe is that these are all natural configurations, and variations of our system.

reply to post by mystiq


Agreed. It is natural. It is produced in nature by nature. It is natural by definition, yet people don't seem to get that through their thick skulls.

I really don't think you can label anything completely natural as an "abomination" like I've heard so much. Abomination against what?!

It doesn't make any sense.

[edit on 18/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

I dunno if it's natural or not, I'm not a scientist of any sort really.
All that I do know is that people will continue doing what they want to do.

reply to post by Kiltedninja

I dunno if it's natural or not, I'm not a scientist of any sort really.

It is. Thousands of animals in the animal kingdom exhibit homosexual tenancies from chimps to gut worms. It's not all that rare either.

reply to post by Demandred

very comical response considering the fact that heterosexual lifestyles are waived in front of homosexuals faces everyday and the fact that now marriage is heterosexual specific is a kick in the nuts. As far as gays being something made from pornography? Throughout history homosexuality was common with Greeks,romans,Trojans,Spartans....all the manly men of history. Alexander the great, Achilles. Also Homosexuality is found throughout species of animals as well with many beneficial effects(preventing orphaned animals from being eaten by "adopting" and raising them)en.wikipedia.org...
As for the whole take responsibility for "their" actions is just the most ridiculous things I have heard in a long time. Maybe next time before just going off on an ignorant hateful evil tangent you read and learn something. The only thing that is going to keep humanity alive is love and all you have is the complete opposite.

reply to post by Good Wolf

It is. Thousands of animals in the animal kingdom exhibit homosexual tenancies from chimps to gut worms. It's not all that rare either.

Well the only religious comeback I have heard to this excellent point is that nature become corrupted because of the fall (and that man is supposed to rise above nature yada yada). The problem with this argument of course, is that nature has been around for 100's of millions of years before mankind came on the scene. It's just another example of the ridiculous religious arguments - and the extreme cognitive dissonance to any semblance of rationalism.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


The only response I've heard to it that nature does not equal good, and then they go on to talk about when animals cannibalise or kill their young or something. My response to which is just, "No, I'm aware of that, but it's still got nothing to do with the matter. The point is that it is natural. Combine that with the fact that both in nature and humanity, it is not detrimental to us then how can anyone say it's wrong, especially when people are born the way they are."

It's totally stupid. People will use a 1500-2000 yo book to justify their fears and prejudices.

To God, fornication is equal to homosexuality as a sin.
But most people don't accept that, either way. The bible is what, what it is. You can disagree with it all you want. God expects most to disagree with it anyway, no big surprise here.
But I do agree there is a double standard as to how churches and most people of faith look at sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

"9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."


According 1 Corinthians 6:9 & 10 a drunkard is just as bad as homosexual, or a thief or a fornicator. Is the bible being prejudice against fornicators too?

The standard is what the majority of society accepts, that's not the bible standard anyway.

Fornication=Sin.
Homosexuality=Sin.
Fornication=Homosexuality.

Thus most human perception of major sin is different from the reality as God see's it, and he see's it, as it is written in the book of Corinthians.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Fornication=Homosexuality.

This isn't true if it's a married same-sex couple. If fornication is an issue then it makes sense to let gays marry.

The problem I have with the bible is that it calls homosexuality a sin in places yet people are born like that. It's really not any different to condemning people for the colour of their skin. God seems to be punishing people for his own actions as opposed to their own.

reply to post by Good Wolf


And some people have radical hormones, God expects them to deal with it, not give into to it. It's called self-control. Any male with even a normal sexual drive could become a sexual predator if they don't learn self-control in this area. Some never do and they end up behind bars.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Where not exactly talking moderation here. What we are attracted to is not controllable, our actions are. As long as it's consensual there is no more harm in homosexuality than heterosexuality.

Doesn't make sense that god would give us radical hormones and then expect us to control ourselves anyway. If the only reason we have sex is to reproduce then it doesn't make sense he'd give us such charged sex drives ether. It's comparable to stealing someone's money and then laughing at them for being poor. It doesn't make sense unless God is a bully.

[edit on 23/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf


Please stop with "natural."

Is it natural to act in a way the purposally prevents you from continuation of the species?

If so then the race should have died off eons ago.

I GUARANTEE you belive in evolution. If so then homosexuals are an aberation because they CAN"T replicate without the use of science.

Is pedophilia "natural?" I am sure they say they are born that way. Or is that born behavior "not natural?"

reply to post by crmanager


Natural? It is found in nature. It is produced by nature.

By definition it is natural. 100% of Bobono chimps are bisexual. It's found in over 1500 species of animal from chimps to gutworms according to wikipedia. Wiki

The other thing is that reproduction is not the only purpose of sex and even if it were, the population would have to be almost 100% gay before it became an evolutionary issue. The other thing is that it's not produced by certain genes. There has been no real conclusive study to suggest that there is a gay gene so it's not something that would just die off and not being able to reproduce after itself. It's always going to be there cos it is produce by other things.

reply to post by Good Wolf


"It is found and produced by nature."

Stop it.

So is cancer and cleft palates and they are sought out for obliteration.

Bi sexual animals are capable of species continuation. HOMOSEXUALS are not.

reply to post by crmanager

"It is found and produced by nature."

Stop it.

So is cancer and cleft palates.

Indeed, but now you must demonstrate how homosexuality is harmful to the animals like cancer. In chimps homosexuality has a social function, one of the many purposes of sex is bonding. It is often used as a way to crawl up the social hierarchy. Or some members just become companions and work as a team instead of individuals. OR the animals are just horny.

No harm, no foul.

Bi sexual animals are capable of species continuation. HOMOSEXUALS are not.

So? Yes bisexuals can enter relationships that produce offspring, but it's not always about offspring, that's only one of the lesser ends of sex. You'll find that most of the time satisfaction is that main goal, that's why we have organs whose sole function is of pleasure.

It's not all that rare, you will find animals that are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual and every single variant in between. That's how it's always been.

A case of gay parent penguins.



However the point stands, you said that it wasn't natural and I proved it was.

[edit on 24/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Parabol
I'll try to make this as short as possible, here's my line of thought.

1. Homosexuals exist
   
2. There is a genetic factor to homosexuality
   
3. Like all of us, the genetic factor influences their personal and social feelings
   
4. God creates everything and everyone
   
5. God does not create people who are pre-damned, or already bound for hell upon birth due to free will
   
6. Homosexuals exist
   
7. To those who say 'change them', is like asking a straight person to change to gay, their genetic feelings and direction are based on the same chemical principles as gays
   
8. God doesn't hate gays, damn them to hell, or care what they do because He created them as such
   
9. ...so why in the Lords name do some Christians use God and the Bible to discriminate and hate on homosexuals??
   

That's pretty much it. My questions to those who are Christian and against gays are these...

1. Do you not believe in a genetic basis?
   
2. Do you believe God creates people pre-damned?
   
3. Do you feel God gives you the right to judge?
   
4. Do you feel God hates gays, or anyone for that matter?
   

The way I see it, God is more concerned about how we treat each other than us going against Him. The commandments and other important lessons are based around us getting along and everyone experiencing a happy, peaceful time (I know wars and such were fought in His name but I don't believe men are above saying God told them to do such things, but that's another discussion).

To say God feels gays are an abomination to His work is like a child complaining to us that we aren't doing it right. Homosexuals do not cause Him, Christians, non-Christians, or themselves any harm. They can be Christians as well, it's not as if they are bathing in blood chanting Satans name or something. I don't understand how Christians can see God as being so hateful.

I know there is a verse which says men shouldn't lay with men or something, but I personally don't agree with it. I think parts of the Bible like this are the work of men. I find it hard to believe that every rule in Exodus was God reciting his list to whoever wrote it. "Ok now, if you steal food, thats going to be 5 oxen that must be repaid.... hmmn, no wait, better make that 10." I know that's my personal belief, but I think we should attempt to recognize how the greedy hands of men have been laid upon the book.

Oh and for the record I'm a straight, semi-Christian (I believe in the positive God in the Bible, don't take it literally, and a strong believer in science).

Hi,
Replying somewhat back to front here, what is wrote in Exodus was wrote at a time when Oxen would have been a viable way of compensating someone. Setting aside the semantics, if you look at it, what this part fo th ebible is obviously saying is that if a person steals something, they should repay greater than what they stole. This in a way give the thief a kinda taste of his own medicine. Like the victim, the thief too would now be out of pocket. Incidentally, we still do this today. At least in principle. In general, if a person steals something, and is caught, they will go to Jail. Loss of freedom is one of the most important things an individual has. And folks take it for granted that they have it. I know, i've been in prison.

Part of your list A is misleading in ways. You are combining things such as being Gay is genetic (for that to be accepted, your proof would be good), and that god creates all things. The latter is an absolute term. how true is one to accept that? Do Paedophiles & rapists come under that also? If so, your arguement God creates all things is not a benchmark for acceptance, per se.



take care
Wayne



[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]

Well said.

Now, Once again, just because we're here arguing about whether or not it's right or wrong to be homosexual, doesn't mean a damn thing. People are going to go on doing it until one of two things happen.

1. The human race ceases to exist.
2. God or Gods make it known in a way that is undeniable to all that it is wrong to be homosexual.

Now that being said, I've been wondering, what, besides that the bible says it's wrong, makes gays such a bloody bother? I happen to have a few gay friends, and they're absolutely normal, and it's like my dad says "Better to be with a respectable man than a crazy woman."

So now, I present you with another question, what is it that made the writers of the bible say that it's wrong? Was it really that some God told them that, because I've read the bible through and through, and it seems to me that the laws of the bible were designed to help further the prosperity of the Jewish people.

That's what I'll leave you with, think on it.