2 Dutch men guilty of injecting 14 with HIV

2 Dutch men guilty of injecting 14 with HIV

www.msnbc.msn.com

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch court convicted two men Wednesday for attempting to infect 14 victims with HIV in a bizarre sex case.

The Groningen District Court found the two guilty of severe assault for injecting semiconscious men with HIV-infected blood at sex parties between January 2006 and May 2007.

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 12-11-2008 by malignant_tumor]

[edit on 12-11-2008 by malignant_tumor]

What's "kills" me is that didn't charge them with attempted murder because they consider it a chronic illness and not a fatal one! Maybe not a fatal one if you have the financial means to battle HIV. Considering the financial times that we live in now, I'm sure that is not the case for most.

www.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 12-11-2008 by malignant_tumor]

reply to post by malignant_tumor


Kinda makes you wonder what those "innocent" people where doing at a sex party

I mean, what the h**l. I know it's hard explainig to the wife how you ended up HIV but i'm sure these "victims" knew what the where doing when the went to a hardcore male sex party where the knew drugs would be used.

But who cares....just my two cents

I'm not to sypathetic towards the victims, you got to know what you are getting yourself involved in.

I think it's more shocking seeing the governments attitude towards the disease.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
Kinda makes you wonder what those "innocent" people where doing at a sex party

So, if I'm sitting in a coffee shop and some guy randomly infects me with HIV, I am innocent....But if I was at a sex party I am not an innocent victim - and it's my own fault? Am I understanding your logic correctly?

I know it's hard explainig to the wife how you ended up HIV but i'm sure these "victims" knew what the where doing when the went to a hardcore male sex party where the knew drugs would be used.

So, since the victims KNEW there would be drugs ast this sex party - it is their fault they were injected with HIV? Is this what you're saying?

If it is - I respectfully disagree. HIV and "drugs" can NOT be compared to eachother. Drugs that I would think would be a sex party (Cocaine, Ecstasy etc) are not the same thing as HIV. And just because someone is interacting in an environment influenced by these drugs, does not excuse the fact they were deliberately infected with HIV, and it doesn't make them any less of a victim.

- Carrot

Edit: Thanks, I missed that part in my first reading.


[edit on 11/12/2008 by CA_Orot]

Originally posted by CA_Orot
The question is NOT what the victims were doing there - the question - is HOW did these men gain access to the HIV infected blood?

These men were infected with HIV themselves.

Originally posted by malignant_tumor

What's "kills" me is that didn't charge them with attempted murder because they consider it a chronic illness and not a fatal one! Maybe not a fatal one if you have the financial means to battle HIV. Considering the financial times that we live in now, I'm sure that is not the case for most.

It's paid by their (mandatory) health insurance

[edit on 12/11/2008 by Roosje]

reply to post by CA_Orot



mon excusez CA_Orot,

It's just that i am from Holland and i have a LOT more background info on this case. It was on dutch radio all day. (and the last months)
The sex parties you are talking of and the sex parties these people where visiting are hopefully a world apart because besides the use of alcohol and xtc they were also using GHB.
Now, if you attend sex parties where the use of these drugs are common and you start complainig the next day you where raped there is something seriously wrong.

quote:" Tijdens de behandeling van de zaak werden deze feesten omschreven als bizarre nachten waarbij de bezoekers elkaar bevredigden met dildo's, bierflesjes, handen en soms ook voeten. "

translation:" during the case in court these parties were described as bizar nights where vistors would use dildo's ,beerbottles,hand and feet"

We also have a new thing overhere witch is very populair and that is called "giving birth" amongst gay men. That is the transistion of healthy human being to HIV infected out of free will... . I'm not making this up.
And that is done trough a syringe.

Knowing al these facts, do you still think these men who got infected are still so innocent...?? Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty dumb to visit a sex party where it is known these things take place. (these parties were known in the area and were often held)

I think you are comparing two different worlds.....

And no, i don't agree with what these men have done but wouldn't you say that atleast these men were running a high risk??

reply to post by Roosje


Is that a justification to exclude attempted murder as the charge against these people?

reply to post by malignant_tumor


Yes......

If you know that 40% of gay men (who don't have HIV or don't know) don't practice safe sex and 80% of gay men(how know the have HIV) don't practice safe sex (today radio 1) and these people have sexual contact on a daily basis with different "partners" (i'm using the term partner here very loosly b'cause these people meet on parkinglots for 15min. of pleasure)
It is very hard to say with 100% certainty that these "victims" where indeed infected at these parties.
I think the judge could not have concluded any differently. That doesn't make it less sick but it's a sick little world where people don't take responsibility.



[edit on 12/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

[edit on 12/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

[edit on 12/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by malignant_tumor

 

these people have sexual contact on a daily basis with different "partners" (i'm using the term partner here very loosly b'cause these people meet on parkinglots for 15min. of pleasure)

Not really very PC that, is it? In fact, more than that, it's stereotypically bigoted.

If people want to go to "sex parties", then fair enough, it's their choice, and they're running a (relatively small) risk ... but it should still be investigated.
You seem to be letting your prejudice get in the way of ... y'know ... the law ... and morals that it's not really OK to knowingly infect someone with HIV against their will ...

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
i'm using the term partner here very loosly

With as many common partners these people have, when you use the term "loose"...

...they must be very loose!

Originally posted by pk1yen

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by malignant_tumor

 

these people have sexual contact on a daily basis with different "partners" (i'm using the term partner here very loosly b'cause these people meet on parkinglots for 15min. of pleasure)

Not really very PC that, is it? In fact, more than that, it's stereotypically bigoted.

If people want to go to "sex parties", then fair enough, it's their choice, and they're running a (relatively small) risk ... but it should still be investigated.
You seem to be letting your prejudice get in the way of ... y'know ... the law ... and morals that it's not really OK to knowingly infect someone with HIV against their will ...

You are NOT from Holland, are you??

There is absolutly notting stereotypical about that. It's a freaking fact overhere!! I suggest you look up YouTube and view Undercover, parkeerplaatssex. It is a show in Holland about somebody exposing the underbelly of dutch society. and believe me there is NOTHING setreotypical about my statement. So unless you are from Holland don't tell me i'm thinking this way i'm just giving the facts.

"Relatively small risk"???...are you serious? did you not read the numbers i just gave you. 40% not infected people and 80% (read 80%) HIV infected people have UNPROTECTED sex.

And you have all the facts?? who says these people were injected against there will. So now you are gonna play judge and say " well these people can't possibly have wanted this, you sir, are guilty"

If i'm correct your judgement seems to reduce when using drugs. What if these people asked nicely if they wanted to be injected and the victim said yes......

Your turn....

reply to post by operation mindcrime


I see your point. I accept that some people may have wanted to be injected with HIV.

It's probably a type of paraphilia, just like some people feel "whole" after they amputate parts of their own body, whether it be an arm or a leg for sexual pleasure. Just a different type of psychosis.

reply to post by operation mindcrime

Knowing al these facts, do you still think these men who got infected are still so innocent...?? Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty dumb to visit a sex party where it is known these things take place. (these parties were known in the area and were often held)

Yes.
They take part in such things,its consensual sexual activity.Is it different because they are gay??

Would hetrosexuals at a bondage party deserve to be injected with a life threatening illness??

Sleeping with multiple partners gives people a 50/50 chance,injecting someone with HIV is not the same thing.It also isn't acceptable activity at a sex party.

It is very hard to say with 100% certainty that these "victims" where indeed infected at these parties.

There is obviously undisclosed evidence that points to the fact that these men were injected at these parties.



[edit on 12-11-2008 by jakyll]

Originally posted by malignant_tumor
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

I see your point. I accept that some people may have wanted to be injected with HIV.

It's probably a type of paraphilia, just like some people feel "whole" after they amputate parts of their own body, whether it be an arm or a leg for sexual pleasure. Just a different type of psychosis.

exactly....

When dutch people say "weird sex party" you can bet *snip* it's a weird sex party.

It's not common practice but there excist a subculture here in Holland of gay men who voluntarily get HIV to show there love to there partner or master.

I know , it's a weird world..........

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 13-11-2008 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

Knowing al these facts, do you still think these men who got infected are still so innocent...?? Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty dumb to visit a sex party where it is known these things take place. (these parties were known in the area and were often held)

Yes.
They take part in such things,its consensual sexual activity.Is it different because they are gay??

Would hetrosexuals at a bondage party deserve to be injected with a life threatening illness??

Sleeping with multiple partners gives people a 50/50 chance,injecting someone with HIV is not the same thing.It also isn't acceptable activity at a sex party.

It is very hard to say with 100% certainty that these "victims" where indeed infected at these parties.

There is obviously undisclosed evidence that points to the fact that these men were injected at these parties.





[edit on 12-11-2008 by jakyll]

It is not different b'cause they are gay but it only happens in this community

Nobody "deserves" to be injected with this but you cannot judge wether or not it was done against there will

Says who?? as long as both/all parties agree it is acceptable.

Yes ,they where injected but not sure if they were infected...notice the difference...

[edit on 12/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

Nobody "deserves" to be injected with this but you cannot judge wether or not it was done against there will

Yes you can.Just look for more information.

Various news reports state that these men were assaulted before they were injected.What they don't know is if the HIV came from the sex or from the injection.Thats why the sentence is so low.

No matter how you look at it,if its against someones will,its wrong.



[edit on 12-11-2008 by jakyll]

Vous excusez mon ami operation mindcrime,

Knowing al these facts, do you still think these men who got infected are still so innocent...?? Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty dumb to visit a sex party where it is known these things take place. (these parties were known in the area and were often held)

If there are men who choose to be infected with HIV - it is their choice that they have made, and even though I don't understand it, its not my place to judge. The problem is that these men in the article, were injected without having given consent.

I think you are comparing two different worlds.....

Black and White. It is wrong to inject someone with HIV when they have not given consent. I don't care WHERE the party is, or WHAT the party is, or WHAT they're doing behind closed doors. The injection was forced, or unknown, and lacked consent. Therefore in my opinion, it is wrong. A defense Attorney might try and call into question the "character" of the innocent men who were injected (as they were at this sex party); but the fact still remains - they didn't ask for it. And that is whats wrong.

I won't pretend to know what all went on in that particular party, whether it was a massive orgy or a great big Ecstacy-Fest. But if consent was given for those two activities, then the HIV injection was wrong.

And no, i don't agree with what these men have done but wouldn't you say that atleast these men were running a high risk??

Yes, I agree they were running a risk. But it is their CHOICE to take that risk. And it is their RIGHT to NOT be infected with HIV.

Jakyll

No matter how you look at it,if its against someones will,its wrong.

Thank you.

- Carrot

[edit on 11/12/2008 by CA_Orot]

Sigggghhhh,

This getting pretty tiersome but for those who can read dutch here's an article in dutch. I'm not gonna translate the whole damn thing because it is just to long for that and i should have been sleeping ages ago but i'll give you a hint....

the article is called : "Voor de kick met HIV injecteren" witch mean as much as " haveing yourself injected with HIV for kicks..."

www.nrc.nl...

Fact of th matter remains (and i'll keep it short) You nore i can possibly judge wether or not this was done against their will and you nore i can posibly judge if these men were infected at this party or were already infected.

If i had HIV ,i would also visit such a party to afterwards sue these people in civil court to try and get some money out of it. (witch by the way is also gonna happen)

No there's an other side you haven't look at ,now did you. You're asumming a lot without knowing the facts. I agree with the judges in this case and i believe justice was done.

Don't judge to quickly witout knowing all the facts......