Either there is no god and no paranormal... or there are billions of good liars and dreamers

I have undying faith in all of the above but no care whatsoever if bigfoot / chupa exist or not. I say who cares really. The giraffes, dolphins or the whale s top them all in wonder anyways!

Frankly I don't believe anything other than what my eyes, ears, inner knowing show me. My belief in conventional mathematics is questionable at best in a base 10 numerical system. The bible? Well there are some guts to the stories but mostly they are adaptations of legend. I do believe that the stories are simply not AMAZING ENOUGH to represent the true power of our creator. Pagan beliefs are always worthy of a strong hearty laugh from me too. Simply put, there's at least one truth and that is that it is impossible for a creator consciousness to NOT exist. We are an impossibility. The proof is easily attained in a tangible form when imagining what void is for an hour or so. Impossible.

The greatest proof of God is when you try to comprehend the concept of absolutely nothing. That impossible to decipher feeling is our creator's realm of being within the cosmic. Creative works are the most spiritual experience you can have as it is impossible for an idea to come from nowhere and something comes from the void into being.

My biggest belief is that people are delusional to think we hold any importance on this earth without effecting positive change and creative expression in our own experiences. Many, I believe, are becoming expendable consuming drones by their doubt in their purpose and lack of creativity.

Those searching for Ghosts, Chupas, UFOs, God are really trying to believe that we have purpose greater than we understand. The thirst for the paranormal is a profound spiritual experience in itself and serves proof as to the wonders hidden within a void of unanswered questions.

Maybe *all things* are both true and untrue simultaneously.

I won't say a lot here, don't want to get off track of the original topic at hand, but i wanted to toss this part in at least, for food for thought, okay?

Can we be sure to clarify, when discussing things of this nature, WHICH GOD is being referred to? All in general? or just the Yahweh of the bible?

I ask, because there are many different viewpoints of "God", all of them different, and your original focus was a generalized statement, which then brought in those who are of the Christian bent, who then stepped forward to defend their bible, and it's now turned into a completely different discussion.


For myself, I used to be a Christian, but I am something else entirely now. Do I believe in something higher? Outside of ourselves? Sure, I do. I don't think it interferes with us, or takes stances one way or the other, but that's getting into a deeper discussion that isn't needed here.


To get back on topic... I think the MAIN reason people believe in God in religious terms is the way they are raised, for the most part. You get raised up to believe in this one thing, and told flat out that to believe in the other things, like ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, etc, is anti-God, for some reason or another.

Then people will do anything to justify that belief system, because it's been established within you your whole life. To go otherwise would be to start to break down barriers in your upbringing that most people simply do not wish to face. So they never do.


Does all that make sense?

our conciousness is predertermined to think in naratives and metaphores so it likes to make things up

basically we think in stories

we like stories
we tell our self stories all the time about everything

when someone doesnt agree with our story we get all worked up

beardy god face is just a story that got made up to explain things in the same way much older gods were

what makes that flash in the sky, beardy god angry we anthropromorphised the earth and our enviroment. its jsut becasue its such a nice story we dont have to take responsability for our selves if a good thing happend god did it becasue he loves us, if a bad thing happens its to test me becasue he loves me. its all a plan suddenly when people die too its not a bad thing and when we die we dont have to be scared beardy god face will come collect and party hardy for all eternity

its like a security blankie for a small child it makes the big bad scarry world a bit more people friendly when big sky daddy is watching over you

in many cases its the same with ghost/spirits becasue you think the place is haunted and somthing happens that you cant imeddiatley explain you say ghosty did it. the differance is with many of the above we can test things we can test the enviroment to look for factors like high electrical charges and drafts etc we can create poltergeist activity in lab enviroments. we can compare what you felt/saw to what otehrs felt/saw and check for similarities etc

bigfoot prints can be tested and analised same with photo/video evidence same with ufo's

the only one that offers no proof for its case by its believers are the religeous in most cases, well they usually go with a circular argument surronding said book of choice or make wild leaps

Im speaking about the god referred to in the bible. This whole thing is about the bible mainly and the stories in it which so many believe to be true.

i definitely believe in a god, but i definitely dont believe in the bible.

however it does still make me question it.

i cant be a hypocrite and say nothing in the bible is true because many things ive experienced arent normal, and many would say wouldnt be true either.

i agree with the above post.

maybe all things are true and untrue simultaneously

maybe we just arent supposed to know everything about these "other worldy" things because the second we did know everything about them, life wouldnt be interesting anymore.

People believe what is convenient to them, or what fits their own criteria of reason. Until people let go of their dogmatic beliefs, their conventional ways of thinking, true knowledge cannot be obtained.

reply to post by calihan123


Well, human kind is prone to arrogance. We are the consummate purveyors of cognitive dissonance. Couple both of those together, and you can see why people who see a spirit, even though it could be a hallucination, will believe they saw a spirit and no-one can explain to them otherwise, as they simply won't believe it. It's the same with religion, only for many they are indoctrinated by their parents, and then to stop believing is going to make them possibly think less or at least think differently about their parents; that their parents told them stuff as fact which turned out to be baseless opinion.

That's enough to make belief in anything yet-to-be-proved a very touchy subject. Ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, David Icke, Jesus - you name it.

There is no scientific evidence for any of that list, yet people believe it like it's going out of style. They believe because they want to, not because it makes sense. Yet when pressed, their cognitive dissonance will kick in and they'll be able to pull all kinds of validation of their beliefs out of thin air, and to them it will make perfect sense. To a rational, objective independent observer, however, it will look like the most deranged 'logic' they have ever seen.

That is the tragedy of mankind. We possess the tools to be logical, yet it's easier for some people to be illogical, especially when their illogical nature helps them in other aspects of their lives. War, poverty, hunger, religion. All would not exist if we lived up to our true potential as logical sentient beings, instead of this mess of reactionary primates we see all around us. Myself included.

reply to post by calihan123


The contradiction occurs, because modern day "miracles" or manifestation of the "devil" don't have proper representation. The science and its celebrated ambassadors, such as Stephen Hawking over at Cambridge, don't regard the peculiar manifestations that some people report as a legitimate phenomena to study. Most of the ordinary folks are heavily influenced by the opinions of individuals who are praised by the society as outstanding individuals through recognition of awards, such as Nobel Price etc.

On the other hand, some religions, like the Roman Catholicism, have powerful "lobby." When the pope visits major countries, such as the USA, it is an event followed by major media and the head of the state and the pope usually see each other. That helps to sustain the mass belief in ideas that have turned out questionable by the people who decided to cast a different look at the realities concerning various issues starting with Copernicus, Kepler, and via Darwin to the present.

Most people are mentally dependent (the celebrity syndrome) in the formation of their opinions, and that's what contributes to the contradiction brought about in the OP. That's why some individuals who would like to see themselves to become "The Vicars of Almighty UFO" often seek an endorsement from celebrities. Prince Charles is interested in UFO!!!

Here's the problem. The idol isn't the truth, the idol only carries the truth. The reason you can't understand the bible is because you are focused on the idol, rather than the truth they are carrying.

People of power then hide behind the idol, and do things which go against the message/truth the idol carried.

For example, look at how christians(and other religions) wear a cross around their necks, or hold other symbolisms which worship the idol in what they do. But then in their actions, they don't follow the message and truth given, they do things exactly the opposite.

So I don't blame you for rejecting the bible. I did the same thing. And the majority of people I see only worship the idols of the bible. Jesus this, Jesus that. But if you point out they aren't following the message/truth in what Jesus said, then its "I'm not perfect, and I don't have to do anything so long as I believe that idol died for me". When sadly, even the bible says otherwise. And their "leaders" will be all the more happy to skip over those parts of the bible, take a verse here and there to create whatever story they want.

Jesus told people they were the authority, not the leaders and priests. And yet, you're not a "good christian" if you don't submit to the authorities and follow their laws.

God is within, not external. If you are looking "out there" for god, you aren't going to find him. If you are looking "out there" only, then you will find more evidence for ghosts, aliens and so forth. When you look deep inside yourself and begin to question what you are exactly, then you will see god. You will see that everything is connected, that we are all one. I am god, and I am arguing with myself.

I could show you an understanding of the bible that you won't find by worshiping the idol of Jesus. Focusing on the idol as the truth instead of the truth in the message is to worship a false idol. That is what you see in mainstream Christians, and you can see just how ignorant they are.

Originally posted by dave420
That's enough to make belief in anything yet-to-be-proved a very touchy subject. Ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, David Icke, Jesus - you name it.

There is no scientific evidence for any of that list, yet people believe it like it's going out of style. They believe because they want to, not because it makes sense. Yet when pressed, their cognitive dissonance will kick in and they'll be able to pull all kinds of validation of their beliefs out of thin air, and to them it will make perfect sense. To a rational, objective independent observer, however, it will look like the most deranged 'logic' they have ever seen.

That's quite a broad generalization and somewhat of an elitist proclamation. The scientific community is imperfect and cannot be used as the sole bastion for rationale. Just because something has yet to be scientifically archived does not make it non-existent. There are other means of observing and analyzing evidence than the mere contemporary gospel of mainstream science. Mind you, this isn't a knock on science by any means. It is what it is, albeit with limitations and its fair share of corruption, just like any other apparatus.

I'm simply putting science in its place, since many pseudo-intellectuals tend to perceive it as the supreme instrument for critical thinking.

Well, since God, ghosts, bigfoot, aliens, etc. are all, at this point, unprovable phenomena in any absolute sense and require an element of faith to believe in them, it really comes down to a couple of factors.

1) Budget.

Religion has had essentially limitless funds through the centuries to be used towards buying, or forcibly converting, believers. Other paranormal subjects have never had even close to the same funding with which to spread their "truth".

2) Organization

An offshoot of budget. Religion has been organized for centuries with the sole goal of expanding it's power base. The more believers they can drum up, the more control they have over the masses.

The more members a religion has, the more budget they can accrue, with which they can fund their organization, with which they can amass more members, to increase the budget, to expand the organization..........

If other "unbelievable" areas had the same resources as religion, we would see the numbers of their believers rivaling those of religion.

The concept of god is one most people alive believe in. Everyone, no matter what they believe in, believes in something and believes we were created by something.

But the concept of jesus doesnt make much sense to me to be honest. There is no evidence the man ever existed. No one has his bones. There are only stories over the years and years about who and what he was.

I mean look at one thread on ats. look at how much it changes by the end of the thread... its the same concept with stories. And imagine, over years and years and years of stories, they cant be right. There would be no possible way for the same story to pass its way through all of those years. Its just not reasonable.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by calihan123]

Originally posted by calihan123
The concept of god is one most people alive believe in. Everyone, no matter what they believe in, believes in something and believes we were created by something.

But the concept of jesus doesnt make much sense to me to be honest. There is no evidence the man ever existed. No one has his bones. There are only stories over the years and years about who and what he was.

I mean look at one thread on ats. look at how much it changes by the end of the thread... its the same concept with stories. And imagine, over years and years and years of stories, they cant be right. There would be no possible way for the same story to pass its way through all of those years. Its just not reasonable.

It doesn't matter if he was real or not. That is just focusing on the idol. What is important is what he said, and what the story is.

Take the movie the matrix. Is it real? No. But is the story and questions it brings up not the important part?

Todays mainstream Christians are the equivalent of worshipping Neo from the matrix, rather than understanding the truth being shown.

I'll ask you the same question nobody else will dare to answer. What part of what "Jesus" said do you find so disagreeable? Is it not really the way his image is being worshipped and used that you have the problem with?



[edit on 6-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by calihan123


I don't believe in God. I don't believe we were created.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by calihan123



I'll ask you the same question nobody else will dare to answer. What part of what "Jesus" said do you find so disagreeable? Is it not really the way his image is being worshipped and used that you have the problem with?



[edit on 6-11-2008 by badmedia]

Funny you said the thing about the matrix. I have used that analogy too in describing the way the world really is

it isnt jesus i have a problem with. it's the fact that people always say "he died for our sins" ... no one knows that.

the concept of jesus sounds like some cool guy that had magic tricks and was a therapist, but the religious view on him seems so unrealistic

Originally posted by badmedia
I'll ask you the same question nobody else will dare to answer. What part of what "Jesus" said do you find so disagreeable? Is it not really the way his image is being worshipped and used that you have the problem with?[edit on 6-11-2008 by badmedia]

i disagree with the bits he says the old testament rules are correct and should be followed

sorry stoning homosexuals for doing whats natural to them and stoning kids for defying thier parents etc

the bit where he says its more important to love him then care about your family

the bit where he said god was right to drown the earth

the bit he said it was better to use ointment on his feet thn to sell it for a rediculous amount of money and help the poor

reply to post by noobfun


you make some good points. i like your thinking.

i mean a modern day volunteer could be the same thing jesus was. Just someone who wanted to help every once in a while.

to call him the "son of god" who "died for our sins" it really isnt logical. We are all gods sons and daughters. We are all a part of god. Why would jesus be the son of god when we all are in the same boat?

I think the state of the world should show you the reason why people believe and act they way they do. It's because this is all theyve known. Its only been of recent times that people have started thinking out of the box. Before that, it was whatever was taught to them and handed down from generation to generation. Only us, could turn around and ask why they believe all that stuff? That dont mean it aint real nessecarily but that we have moved on intellectually, academically, scientifically and spiritually and now need more advanced answers. That said, I have read the Bible from front to back and the koran and can honestly say, no book or any human have taught me more or convinced me more of a 'grand designer' than those books have and I am still reading. So, to conclude, its a very personal thing and I think only when all of our faculties work together can we even begin to comprhend this world and its emense complexities.

Originally posted by badmedia
Here's the problem. The idol isn't the truth, the idol only carries the truth. The reason you can't understand the bible is because you are focused on the idol, rather than the truth they are carrying.

People of power then hide behind the idol, and do things which go against the message/truth the idol carried.

For example, look at how christians(and other religions) wear a cross around their necks, or hold other symbolisms which worship the idol in what they do. But then in their actions, they don't follow the message and truth given, they do things exactly the opposite.

So I don't blame you for rejecting the bible. I did the same thing. And the majority of people I see only worship the idols of the bible. Jesus this, Jesus that. But if you point out they aren't following the message/truth in what Jesus said, then its "I'm not perfect, and I don't have to do anything so long as I believe that idol died for me". When sadly, even the bible says otherwise. And their "leaders" will be all the more happy to skip over those parts of the bible, take a verse here and there to create whatever story they want.

Jesus told people they were the authority, not the leaders and priests. And yet, you're not a "good christian" if you don't submit to the authorities and follow their laws.

God is within, not external. If you are looking "out there" for god, you aren't going to find him. If you are looking "out there" only, then you will find more evidence for ghosts, aliens and so forth. When you look deep inside yourself and begin to question what you are exactly, then you will see god. You will see that everything is connected, that we are all one. I am god, and I am arguing with myself.

I could show you an understanding of the bible that you won't find by worshiping the idol of Jesus. Focusing on the idol as the truth instead of the truth in the message is to worship a false idol. That is what you see in mainstream Christians, and you can see just how ignorant they are.

So . . . you mean it was the Bigfoot who suffered for all of us on the cross instead of Jesus?

Religion is widely accepted due to the way it has been exploited by the ruling class. Those in power have always used it as a way to control people and this control is derived from people's belief in that religion. Those that didn't share in these beliefs were outcasts and demonized by the PTB and it became quite clear to the common folk that they should either believe or fake it. Remember, the first "community leaders" were most likely the best hunters/fighters and shamans/religious figures. Religions have been institutionalized and soaked in propaganda, leading to mass amounts of followers. It has absolutely nothing to do with evidence.

Phenomena labeled as paranormal does not have this institutionalized backing. There is evidence that these things are occurring, but no smoking gun that will change the minds of skeptics. Unlike religion, if one believes in the paranormal, they are labeled as outcasts and demonized. It is not a coincidence that there are opposite reactions based on belief when comparing religion and the paranormal.

Originally posted by noobfun
i disagree with the bits he says the old testament rules are correct and should be followed

sorry stoning homosexuals for doing whats natural to them and stoning kids for defying thier parents etc

Actually, he directly addressed that. That is where Judge not, yest you be judged comes into play, rather than eye for and eye. Let him without sin cast the first stone.

the bit where he says its more important to love him then care about your family

the bit where he said god was right to drown the earth

the bit he said it was better to use ointment on his feet thn to sell it for a rediculous amount of money and help the poor

Got verses for these? I'd like to see them in the correct context, as I do not know where this is said, nor why he would say it. However, the part about loving him and caring about your family bit, is most likely wrong to you because you fail to see he is you.