Socialised Healthcare - American Views Needed

You do mean sickness care don't you?

Health has never been cared for by the med/pharma cartel.

If ever health was cared for we would not need very much sickness care.

Originally posted by TheHypnoToad

Originally posted by chickenshoes
And,no doctor is required to treat a person who has no ability to pay.

This might be true for a family practice physician, or some clinic, but it is definitely not true at hospitals if you are in a life-threatening emergency situation.

Hospitals are required to stabilize patients before transferring them to a charity hospital. If you come in the ER bleeding to death from gunshot wounds, they cannot just shove you right back out the door because you don't have insurance.

Had you read my entire post, you'd have seen that I already basically said what you just did about emergencies.

Maybe at the bottom of the post I should have specified non-emergency visits to the doctor.

[edit on 11/5/2008 by chickenshoes]

Originally posted by TKainZero
Maybe because we are America and we are so kick ass, we are just going to make socilism work. Or thats what i have to at least convince myself now...

That's a good one, my friend. A star for it.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

It's currently the most understaffed field in America. People are being shipped in from other countries and given no-interest loans to go to school to be RN's and PA's and doctors.

Nobody here wants to do it.

And have you any idea why that is? I used to work at 911 dispatch in the US and I can tell you that EMTs/PAs make very, very little money. They made about what the dispatchers made when I was there (early 2000s) but with 100 times the stress. Why would anyone want to possibly be sued or have the guilt of someone dying for 20k a year?


Aaaanyway, as an American in Canada, here is my opinion on socialized healthcare:

The system is dodgy at best. IMO it pays for things it shouldn't, doesn't cover things it should, and is grossly wasteful and mismanaged. I heard the head of the Ministry of Health on the radio just this week saying how Canada's health system has only about 30% efficiency; that is, it gets only $.30 worth of healthcare per $1.00 spent.

Gov healthcare covers drug and alcohol rehab, cancer caused by smoking, and other such expenses which are completely self inflicted. Yet it doesn't cover custom orthotics or most autism treatments - problems which no one could have prevented.

Although these are beefs I have with the Ontario system in particular, my main gripe about gov healthcare is that I think anyone should be able to opt out. It's BS that a person is forced to pay into this cobbled together healthcare system which may or may not cover their health problems, only to be forced to buy additional privatized insurance to ensure that they really don't have to pay their medical bills out of pocket. If they don't want to pay the health premiums they should be able to opt out and buy their own insurance. We shouldn't have to pay twice - once for everyone else and then once for our own insurance or uninsured costs.

Besides that, the quality of socialized healthcare is mediocre at best. Doctors have to see 3 times the number of patients they would in the US to make the same amount of money. So they triple book patients and spend about 3 minutes with each one. That is, if you can even find a doctor to begin with.

People say health insurance is too expensive. Well if taxes weren't so bloody high due to healthcare being 50% of the budget we could all easily afford it. I say socialized healthcare is what is too expensive. No one should have to pay for others' mismanagement of their health.

Basically, I think that if we all have to pay for each other's healthcare then liquor, smokes, pizza, motorcycles, dirtbikes, snowmobiles, cars, skiing, steak, and anything else that is remotely bad for your health should be banned. It's the only way to make sure no one is cheating the system. Personally, I'd rather have the freedom to do whatever and pay my own way.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I've seen in many threads how americans seem to be fearful of socialised healthcare. Many seem to see it as the bottom of the barrell, minimum, awful system. Many seem to think you'll see a manager and not a doctor, or that you can't decide your own treatment.

So i have to ask americans here on ATS, what do you really think socialised healthcare is like? Speaking as someone in the UK who has had access to the NHS, i cannot understand your paranoia and fear over the system. If the government tired to abolish it here i can honestly say that the country would be in uproar and the government would be gone overnight. The NHS isn't perfect but it's absolutely amazing nonetheless.

So come on america, tell me why you're so scared of a social healthcare system.

"Isn't perfect??" You are kidding, right? Have you ever been to a hostpital in the US or Canada?? Makes the NHS look truly Third World. Canada has a 'socialized' medical system too - but it's far better. Perhaps the US should simply look north of the border to see what's really possible...

J.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by TKainZero
Maybe because we are America and we are so kick ass, we are just going to make socilism work. Or thats what i have to at least convince myself now...

That's a good one, my friend. A star for it.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

It's currently the most understaffed field in America. People are being shipped in from other countries and given no-interest loans to go to school to be RN's and PA's and doctors.

Nobody here wants to do it.

And have you any idea why that is? I used to work at 911 dispatch in the US and I can tell you that EMTs/PAs make very, very little money. They made about what the dispatchers made when I was there (early 2000s) but with 100 times the stress. Why would anyone want to possibly be sued or have the guilt of someone dying for 20k a year?


Aaaanyway, as an American in Canada, here is my opinion on socialized healthcare:

The system is dodgy at best. IMO it pays for things it shouldn't, doesn't cover things it should, and is grossly wasteful and mismanaged. I heard the head of the Ministry of Health on the radio just this week saying how Canada's health system has only about 30% efficiency; that is, it gets only $.30 worth of healthcare per $1.00 spent.

Gov healthcare covers drug and alcohol rehab, cancer caused by smoking, and other such expenses which are completely self inflicted. Yet it doesn't cover custom orthotics or most autism treatments - problems which no one could have prevented.

Although these are beefs I have with the Ontario system in particular, my main gripe about gov healthcare is that I think anyone should be able to opt out. It's BS that a person is forced to pay into this cobbled together healthcare system which may or may not cover their health problems, only to be forced to buy additional privatized insurance to ensure that they really don't have to pay their medical bills out of pocket. If they don't want to pay the health premiums they should be able to opt out and buy their own insurance. We shouldn't have to pay twice - once for everyone else and then once for our own insurance or uninsured costs.

Besides that, the quality of socialized healthcare is mediocre at best. Doctors have to see 3 times the number of patients they would in the US to make the same amount of money. So they triple book patients and spend about 3 minutes with each one. That is, if you can even find a doctor to begin with.

People say health insurance is too expensive. Well if taxes weren't so bloody high due to healthcare being 50% of the budget we could all easily afford it. I say socialized healthcare is what is too expensive. No one should have to pay for others' mismanagement of their health.

Basically, I think that if we all have to pay for each other's healthcare then liquor, smokes, pizza, motorcycles, dirtbikes, snowmobiles, cars, skiing, steak, and anything else that is remotely bad for your health should be banned. It's the only way to make sure no one is cheating the system. Personally, I'd rather have the freedom to do whatever and pay my own way.

Freedom to pay $1200 a month for your family's medical insurance vs. $120 in a social medical system that is avaiable to all??

Errmm...think I'd take the $120 version every time myself...

J.

Originally posted by sc2099
Aaaanyway, as an American in Canada, here is my opinion on socialized healthcare:

I can only speak for the UK based system as i havn't used the Canadian one so i best avoid commenting on it.

Originally posted by sc2099
The system is dodgy at best. IMO it pays for things it shouldn't, doesn't cover things it should, and is grossly wasteful and mismanaged. I heard the head of the Ministry of Health on the radio just this week saying how Canada's health system has only about 30% efficiency; that is, it gets only $.30 worth of healthcare per $1.00 spent.

Gov healthcare covers drug and alcohol rehab, cancer caused by smoking, and other such expenses which are completely self inflicted. Yet it doesn't cover custom orthotics or most autism treatments - problems which no one could have prevented.

Different in the UK. The government still covers drug rehab and cancer caused by smoking, it also covers autism and orthotics for patients who are in need of them for medical conditions that would adversly affect their lives.

Originally posted by sc2099
Although these are beefs I have with the Ontario system in particular, my main gripe about gov healthcare is that I think anyone should be able to opt out. It's BS that a person is forced to pay into this cobbled together healthcare system which may or may not cover their health problems, only to be forced to buy additional privatized insurance to ensure that they really don't have to pay their medical bills out of pocket. If they don't want to pay the health premiums they should be able to opt out and buy their own insurance. We shouldn't have to pay twice - once for everyone else and then once for our own insurance or uninsured costs.

I don't understand this. In the UK we always get covered for everything by our NHS system. Therefore we don't need private medical cover. You can get it of course as there are times you may wish to see a private doctor. I have once as a specialist i wanted to see didn't do NHS work. I could have seen an NHS specialist but there wern't many dealing with the field at the time, that's changed now though.

Originally posted by sc2099
Besides that, the quality of socialized healthcare is mediocre at best. Doctors have to see 3 times the number of patients they would in the US to make the same amount of money. So they triple book patients and spend about 3 minutes with each one. That is, if you can even find a doctor to begin with.

Well speaking for the UK system, this simply isn't true. I can spend 15 minutes with my GP and he never rushes me out the door.

Originally posted by sc2099
People say health insurance is too expensive. Well if taxes weren't so bloody high due to healthcare being 50% of the budget we could all easily afford it. I say socialized healthcare is what is too expensive. No one should have to pay for others' mismanagement of their health.

If you check the figures you'll find socialised healthcare works out cheaper than insurance for individual care. Furthermore caring for others is surely the most humane thing and shows a caring society? Oh and lets not forget the insurance companies look for any excuse not to pay, that's how they make their money. If i had a triple bypass i never have to worry about getting back to work as fast as possible, the NHS aren't going to charge me for treatment. That peace of mind helps recovery.

Originally posted by sc2099
Basically, I think that if we all have to pay for each other's healthcare then liquor, smokes, pizza, motorcycles, dirtbikes, snowmobiles, cars, skiing, steak, and anything else that is remotely bad for your health should be banned. It's the only way to make sure no one is cheating the system. Personally, I'd rather have the freedom to do whatever and pay my own way.

Odd view. I really don't see the problem. Taxes are less expensive (at least in the UK) than private health cover. The treatment i have received in hospitals has been absolutely top notch. In private american hospitals you are still prioritized depending on the severity of your condition, it's the same in social healthcare.

Originally posted by TKainZero
I have never been IN socialised health care.

But, i have talked to people that are, and the main message i get is that everything is fine for the simple stuff.

But, when an emergency happens, and you NEED the BEST and right NOW, its not so good.

Then the people you talked to are living in a dream world of some kind, at least if i am talkingabout my own countries healthcare system. If you have an emergency condition you will not wait. My grandad had a heart attack and once we reached the hospital he was whisked off to be treated immediately. No waiting, no delay, nothing.

The treatment at the 'sharp end' of the NHS is absolutely amazing. Speaking as someone whos used it a few times i cannot think what more they could have done for me. It was lightning fast, lots of tests done and treated very well.

Even procedures like hip operations are done very quickly for the majority of patients and the operation itself is fast as we have surgeons who just specialise in that area.

reply to post by TKainZero


A very perspective and true post you made, TKainZero. I work in the
health insurance industry. Entire families move from Canada to the
USA to gain legal access to our healthcare system if a family member
contracts a serious illness. The wait time for chemotherapy and
even for the blood tests to see if the chemotherapy is having a positive
effect on the cancer is horrendous in the big cities of Canada.

Hopefully, President Obama will not abolish the private healthcare
system, but allow both private and public(socialized) healthcare to
run simultaneously. Let each person decide which is right for them.

Here in Illinois, we have socialized healthcare for children, but most
families choose to pay for private insurance. Why? Because the
government is very slow making payments to medical providers
and not paying the price for services that the physicians receive
from health insurance companies. Add those two together and
you find that the BEST physicians severly limit the number of
children they will accept each month who are on the state-run
health insurance plan.

Maybe the Federal Government would do a better job, but the
cost to the taxpayer would dwarf any other government programs,
bailouts, wars, etc..
-cwm

reply to post by sc2099


Star for you and totally agree. The problem with Socialized Healthcare is that people assume its "free" up here. First of all its not "free", it comes as a heavy price to us in the form of taxes. There are many people who treat the hospitals as a second home and find any excuse to abuse the system. Doctors here are fed up with people coming to the emergency room for a cough or a headache.

Two years my brother had an incident which cut his upper eye lid. Now he wasn't in pain and didn't think it was a big deal because he figured it had just scratched the surface. But his friend was adament that he should get it checked out. He went to the emergency room and noticed it was packed full of people that were by all accounts not having an emergency. When the doctor walked out come out into the room and saw my brother's eye she instantly took him in. My brother asked "but what about those other people, they were here before me." To which the doctor replied "you have no idea how grateful we are that someone actually had an emergency." She later told my brother how serious his cut was and had he not come in he could have lost sight in the one eye. But throughout the visit her and a male doctor kept talking about how frustrated they were with people filling up the emergency room without having an actual emergency.

The point I'm trying to make is that whenever people find out that they don't have to pay for something, they will take full advantage of it. The funny thing is is that you go and ask these people who think it is "free" what each of their visits costs, you will get alot of blank faces or alot of "who cares, I don't have to pay for it." Well I pay for it and I do care. That's why I look forward to a single payer system. Maybe this will teach some people some respect and self responsibility.



[edit on 6-11-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

thing is, in america as someone above said, we dont have healthcare, we have sickcare. Sadly, most americans dont even know what "healthy" is because we see it so rarely. We are coming to think that diabetes, arthritis, heart disease, and a massive bag full of drugs are all a normal part of aging, and that alcohol, wellbutrin, and xanax and adderal are normal things to help a healthy person get through their day. Our medical system in the US, the most expensive one in the world, knows absolutely nothing about KEEPING people healthy, its just really good at stapling them back together as they are falling apart....little duct tape round this rib please.
The causes for such things as asthma, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, are known, and largely preventable, as is obesity, however, most people are forced by finance to wait until these problems are critical mass before they can seek treatment. Our healthcare system is a travesty, and ANY change would be an improvement, especially that of taking it out of the hands of the insurance industry, whos profit is made in direct proportion to the care they DENY you. Yeah, ive been working in hospitals for over a decade now.

reply to post by carewemust

"A very perspective and true post you made, TKainZero. I work in the
health insurance industry. Entire families move from Canada to the
USA to gain legal access to our healthcare system if a family member
contracts a serious illness. The wait time for chemotherapy and
even for the blood tests to see if the chemotherapy is having a positive
effect on the cancer is horrendous in the big cities of Canada. "

Which 'big cities in Canada' do you refer to? Did you know that the medical system is different in every province of Canada? They are all 'government' run - but it's the provincial government, not the federal that runs each of the respective provinces health care system. And from my experience, top-notch care is freely available here that is easily comparable to any private system in the US - for around $40 a month. It sounds to me like you are dealing with Canadians in just one province - Ontaro perhaps ? - as your description certainly doesn't fit the medical system in my province.

J.

In the U.S., if you need expensive care and you have some money (not a lot), then you will be bled dry (figuratively) by the health companies. If you are wealthy, you can afford it. If you are poor, it is free (which is partially why it is so expensive for everyone else). If you are middle class, you are bankrupted.

Combine that with massive fraud and profiteering, and the price inflating effects of huge amounts of government money being paid in through various federal and state programs, and the unfortunate truth is that the system is in danger of imminent collapse. This has occurred largely because of the negative effects of those government programs, combined with the growing corporate control of the government which has prevented effective regulation.

We are, sadly, at a point where a socialized system will be the only way out of this mess. I have personally felt the disastrous financial effects of what can happen to a prosperous but not wealthy person, and I am just at the point that I no longer care to fight it. And I am a Libertarian otherwise.

The best policy twenty years ago would have banned company purchased health insurance and forced all citizens to participate in at least minimal state plans, thus broadening the group of insured and forcing individuals and families to shop for plans and therefore inducing competition from the providers. Costs would have been half of what they are today, and the government could have had little to do with it.

Expect the worst.

reply to post by jimbo999


The five families that I'm aware of migrated to Chicago in 2008 from
Montreal(2 families), Toronto(1 family), London(1 family), and Ottawa(1).
Our insurance firm is not very large, with only 26 Chicago brokers.

I admit that 5 families isn't many, but the stories they shared with us
during the interview/application process were quite profound. Obviously
you, and the people you know, have been very fortunate in the level
and quality of care you have received thus far. I hope that streak
of good fortune continues for you and your family.
-cwm

again, as an above poster said, if you are poor, you do not get free healthcare... you get free emergency care. You will not get extended treatments for critical illness, you will not get extended psyche care (virtually no psychotherapy at all, just drugs mostly) and you will certainly not get any natural medicine, which is the only true and effective form of health maintenance.

just have to ask ,
why do you call it socialised health care when the real therm would be free/cheeper public health care,

as ive understood you in the u.s have "insured health care" or "expencive health care"

its just a word play theyve fooled you with , where does your taxes go ?


here where i live i pay max 50$ for a full exam incl dental, x-rays, blood test, multiple opinions,
you name it and its all included in price, if i cant pay , the goverment will pay your bill for you or you´ll recive a discount and they pay you back. If you use their service more then 10 times a year you get the rest of the year for free, grate for elderly and thouse in need

and as for medicin , that to is govermentaly backed up if you cant afford.
i think ive payed about 100$ for 10 years of antibiotics, painkillers, heart medicin, flu, allergy,... everything.
here its even custom for the pharmacy to suggest cheeper medicin of the same kind then the doctor has prescribed.

i remember when i made a mess out of my back when trying to fix a pool table and my spine bent the wrong way, i got a rip in the spinial thing and fluids leaked,

im not insured and it cost me something in the region of 70$ for the whole service, checkups and medicin included and no i didnt have to wait days to meet a doctor.
only diffrence would have been if i was insured would have been that the insurance company would have payed my bill and sallery for the time i was out of order or if it was a permanet faliur then they would have made some sort of payment for me being out of order.

lately thou ive used a private clinic because its closer but it still dosent cost me more then that 50$ for a full service.


first time i saw sicko i had a hard time not to laugh
then yesterday on the news they had a clip of some city where they treated people for free ,cant remember what state that was in but , seeing children with black teeth and people in their 30´s having their teeth pulled out because they cant afford dental service just made my mind blank.
i belive they treated some 100 or 200 people for free that weekend.

if sicko is the reality you people live in then i surely hope you find a better way to treat your kin.

as it is now you are being scammed out of your socks and houses for the protection of health your goverment dosent provide you with.


godsspeed to you all and try to change your society to a better one, remember if you cant afford your childs health care , then whos gonna support you when you need it at a later stage in life.

I'm afraid that socialized medicine will be not unlike going to the DMV,with socialized medicine I'm sure the doctors under this plan will have fixed wages,why socialism dosen't work everyone thinks they are doing more then the other guy,so why care

OK OK

I am a doctor. Here is the truth.

Lets start with the absolute undeniable truth. MOST drugs are not good for you and cause other chronic conditions as bad as or the same as the drug you are taking it for. The best medicine is prevention but since we cannot prevent everything, you need Drs. and medicine and surgery.

Sorry to break it to you all but:
MOST DRS. ALREADY DO ALL THE BAD THINGS YOU THINK ABOUT. Insured healthcare as it exists today limits us to no end. We cannot practice the best practices for the patient without first seeing what the insurance pays for to
A) not only help the patient's pockets but to
B) conform with the standards of the contracts that we signed when we decided to be providers for that network.

For instance, (now just speaking for me)
If a patient comes in and needs some work done and insurance doesnt cover it, I dont bill the patient for all of it just some. I take the loss because I know the insurance wont pay for it but the patient needs it.

BUT SOME DRS. ONLY DO WHAT THE INSURANCE COVERS. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL GET BETTER OR WORSE UNDER SOCIALIZED MEDICINE?

Insurance companies already dictate what we can charge how many times we can see you and for what and for how long. Many of you do not even know how your insurance really works and as the consumer you probably never will because it is designed for them not to pay the Drs and for them not to cover any of your claims.---THE EVIL INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE TO BLAME FOR YOUR 8.00 ASPIRINS AT THE HOSPITAL---NOT THE DRS OR DRUG COMPANIES.

As Drs. we have to charge more to get paid anything. This causes inflation in the system to the point where an uninsured person cannot afford it. This is why people think we need socialized medicine.

Now lets look at a possible law floating in congress--- RIGHT NOW!?!

MEDICARE FOR ALL! SOUNDS GREAT RIGHT? Well not really! Most people with medicare have to have secondary insurance plans to pay for everything Medicare doesnt pay for (which is a lot)

And whats comical is that most of these secondary plans dont pay for anything that Medicare will not pay for.--YUP THATS RIGHT FOLKS.

SOOOOOOOOOOO....they will raise our taxes to not pay for anything under this scenario. YUP !SOUNDS 'BOUT LIKE THE GOVERNMENT.....


In addition everyone thinks Drs must be filthy rich and some are. I make a very good salary BUT I have alot of money going out.

I went into 250,000 worth of debt to learn how to save lives. Noone forced me to do it but it is what you must do if you want to be a DR. these days.

(please do not lecture me about armed service (not an option for me/physical health issues) or some other kinds of scholarships in med school---they just dont exist)

I pay ridiculously high malpractice amounts.

(Now in "SICKO", they showed happy Drs in either France/Canada/UK (I cant remember) there saying they were making a good living but that is in a country where EVERYTHING IS SUBSIDIZED including their education and malpractice. So I'm sure that helps a lot. )

I employ several employees and staff and by staying in business and prescribing meds keep the pharmacies, pharmacists, and pharm tech with a job so if I go down a lot of people go with me.....its just bad economics.

BRIGHT SIDE?

WELL AT LEAST SINCE I AM SELF EMPLOYED AND CURRENTLY PAY FOR MY HEALTH INS FULL PRICE, I GET SOME FREE HEALTHCARE WHOOOHOOO!

and I'm sure going to need it since I will be poor or too overworked to take care of myself from all the patients I will need to see to maintain my current income to pay off all the debt I created (before I woke up). THATS the problem.

PS>>>Please do not tell me that my debt is not your issue/problem because as much as I would love to help you all for free I simply cannot afford to do that and many of my MD friends who saw all this coming have left to practice in other countries or are going to change careers. That means less Drs. less options, more waiting, less patient care.

Everyone seems to be missing a point, so I'll point it out:

there is no provision for health care in the U.S. constitution
there is no guarantee of you being healthy

ask your grandparents how they afforded healthcare

the government is the reason costs have skyrockted

my mother gave birth to my oldest brother in 1962-no insurance, she made 220.00 a month, put my dad thru pharmacy school, paid the rent, paid the car loan and tuition. why did my parents not have a gigantic bill? because the government wouldn't pay anything, and the hospital and doctors couldn't write it off.

we need less government, not more

I think YOU missed the above MD's point. The government is not the reason healthcare is so expensive. Its the Lawyers, the insurance companies, the pharma industry, the education costs. ALL these are part of the Healthcare quartet from hell, and most people are looking to government now to try to limit the influence of the above four because they realize no citizens have the power to go up against these massively wealthy industries. Problem is, the government is directly paid by these fools in the form of lobbyists, so there is slim hope, short of a massive public demand through protests, boycotts, and strikes, lasting quite some time.

I would like to see socialized medicine here in the states as my grown son and others we know can't afford insurance and are in desperate need of health and dental care. It hurts seeing my son suffer and my husband and I can't afford to get him insurance either.

Right now my son, daughter-in-law, and grandson live with us and we are all still broke after bills, food, and gas. I'm hoping for this socialized medicine to start in January after Obama is sworn in. I know it wouldn't be put together that fast, but I can dream.

Originally posted by OhZone
You do mean sickness care don't you?

Health has never been cared for by the med/pharma cartel.

If ever health was cared for we would not need very much sickness care.

AMEN!!!! I wish I would of realized that before choosing my profession.

In addition a doctor cannot facilitate your healing. It is a personal choice to heal or not heal. Many of my patients do not want to make the changes they need to be healthy. They just want drugs.

I was sold a dream. I thought I would help people. "Do no harm". Now I am a glorified enabler in thousands in debt to put more people in debt from bad health.