if i witness an alien or ufo.. this is the LAST PLACE ill present the evidence

Originally posted by damagedoor

Actually, because of the presumption of innocence, the analogy doesn't work. It's better to reverse it. Taking away an innocent man's liberty while the real offender remains free is a terrible outcome, and so it is very, very important to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he committed the crime. A blurry video, which may be the accused or may be someone else, is simply not good enough. Nor is the fact that we may already believe the man is guilty. In other circumstances, these might be sufficient to sway us, but here the consequences are too important for us to be slack.

Which is exactly the point. It has nothing to do with proof being required, it has everything to do with someone deciding that proof is required.

400 witnesses would be enough in a court of law, it has been more than enough to get hearings, investigations and action on other events. However its the subject matter and the "ease of dimissal" which allows any number of witnesses which would then constitute proof under oath, to be utterly dismissed.

Im not about to pretend or justify the concept that "proof" is what people are looking for. Thats a deception in itself, what is being asked for here is the confirmation by a system which was built on lie. This is what people have taken to calling "proof", that doesnt make it real or valuable.

People from within the organisations bringing out "proof" is ignored, because the only acceptable proof is that the institutions themlseves offer THEIR agreement. In which case its very easy to see why they have so much power.

We can back that down to a simple premise, people are basing the desire for "proof" on the idea that the NSA and CIA saying so, equates to proof because in the public sphere its componants of these organisations who dictate the flow of information through NASA through militaries and through politics. What they call classified is classified, what they say doesnt exist, doesnt exist and im afraid from my perspective thats a very narrow and dangerous scope of proof.

However, there is a difference between witnesses of a crime and witnesses to aliens. Sure, witnesses to UFOs work and we accept their testimony. The problem with aliens however is the circumstances surrounding it. In most cases people experience the Oz Effect and so you must start wondering if their testimony is valid. When people start saying that their encounter had a dreamlike quality to it, you have to start wondering as to whether it actually happened or if it was some kind of manifestation of the mind.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


Then try telling someone that thinking about gardens without any vice, where people wander around naked and live 930 years can't be the result of a "oZ" effect, or angels coming down with huge trumpets farting fire for that instance.

Nowadays, many americans would just shoot them on sight calling them damned communist hippies. But it's religion, so it's ok.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
However, there is a difference between witnesses of a crime and witnesses to aliens. Sure, witnesses to UFOs work and we accept their testimony. The problem with aliens however is the circumstances surrounding it. In most cases people experience the Oz Effect and so you must start wondering if their testimony is valid. When people start saying that their encounter had a dreamlike quality to it, you have to start wondering as to whether it actually happened or if it was some kind of manifestation of the mind.

If the masses live in wonderland then reality istelf becomes fantasy.

If the masses live in lies, then the truth is circumspect by definition.

If reality is the is an illusion then dreams may be closer to the truth.

Again, it all comes back to how your mind has its limits of reality defined, and of course by whom.

Call UFO Hunters, or call a nearby university and have them test your evidence. The problem is there are too many hoaxes that are passed off as real. Take the Gulf Breeze photos for instance. There are several books about them being the real deal even though that case has been exposed as a hoax. The person who created it is laughing all the way to the bank with his book deals.

We need skeptics to keep us in check and weed out the hoaxers. The idea is for the truth, even if some of the answers are those we don't want to hear.

Wow. I have the complete opposite feeling.

If I thought I saw something and had photo/video of it. This would be the FIRST place I came to post it and ask for opinions. Because there are people here who care enough about the subject and are knowledgeable enough to help me figure out if what I saw is identifiable: bird, plane, star, light, etc or if its something unidentifiable (UFO).



[edit on 10/31/2008 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by TH3ON3

Yeah you did the category believers. how do you categorize those people? Don’t get me wrong I do believe to, but there also a lot of frantic believers that will follow everything that’s from out of space, that’s also dangerous because it could easily lead to a cult group like heavens gate, And than its good that there are also skeptical believers, Who can always change the perspective of a story, I would say always read their vision also. Because it can be of use. And the ones who are too dumb to give a real serious answer , you pass and go on , Its never fun to be criticized but that’s life right?

Originally posted by Fastwalker81
Sure it would, and then it will get debunked one way or the other.

You seem to be confusing doubt with debunked. They are not one in the same. Doubt exists when authenticity or veracity of a piece of evidence is a concern, but those concerns cannot be proven. A piece of evidence is debunked when it can be demonstrated it is not authentic or genuine.

reply to post by weneedtoknow


you better post it otherwise your just as guilty as the government meat bags who have been keeping all the truths in the dark for the last 60 years.. and i do understand your frustration..

LOOK. you have to post for those individuals who are able to make sence of the cases that others are not willing to accept.

we are here and we do believe.. there are some, like me who have no ability with cgi, therefore i pride myself on listening to testemony and if you came to my home, you may just find that i play reruns of dorothy izatt, dan aykroyd, ufo hunters ,dr,greers disclosure project, over and over and over again in an attempt to familarize myself with the peoples manurisms. body language, vocal tone, or stress tones..

let it GO dont think this world is black and white, even if you post the info somewhere else it will just make its way back here anyway..so give in.



[edit on 11/1/2008 by LordThumbs]

reply to post by weneedtoknow


Well if your not confident in the photo that in it is most probably a hoax.

Originally posted by SkepticalSteve
reply to post by weneedtoknow

 

Well if your not confident in the photo that in it is most probably a hoax.

Exactly. If it is genuine, the evidence will stand on its own merit, no matter what any skeptic has to say. Call it Savior's Law.

reply to post by weneedtoknow


Don't you know? Debunkist Skepticae don't have to back up any of their claims - the burden of proof is never on them

Point in fact; when the Debunkist Skepticus makes a claim that there ' is no proof' - the burden now rests on your to refute their claim....

Welcome to the twisted logic of the Debunkist Skepticae, an obscure albeit highly prolific and pervasive species prevalent on conspiracy forums. They can commonly be found parasitizing the threads of abstract thinkers, wherein they find their most delectable fodder; explorers and dreamers.

*Warning: When a Debunkist Skepticus demands a link, he has already prepared a generic attack for whatever source you may cite.

Be wary of this, you cannot ever appease him or satiate his desire to kill your thread. Giving in will only lead to further attacks which will inevitably attract more parasites, who have been known to swiftly overwhelm and kill our younger and less defended Threadlings.

Reply only to those who treat you with respect... Do not take the bait or fall for the traps set by Dekunkist Skepticae - he is a malicious animal, though You will soon learn to recognize patterns in his behaviour and will soon be able to identify him by his 'seemingly' overt simple-mindedness and blatantly false naivete.

[starred&flagged] Good thread. It needed to be said. I agree with you and I share your opinion wholeheartedly.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Listen the reason why i ask people for Proof is because they mite have proof that i aint seen before. Then when i see that Proof i can make my own mind up!

Some people on here hate when you make your own mind up rather than follow what they think. It's all about opinions, and some can't handle other peoples opinions.

If i said ''that Picture or video looks fake to me'' it don't mean the picture or video is a fake END OF! It just means that i think the picture or video is a fake! It also dosen't mean that there is no life in the Universe!

People have to accept overs views and way of thinking! Even though you mite not like it!

Originally posted by weneedtoknow
From a very fed up and frustrated member who joined ats because he thought it was welcoming and open minded of alternative subjects... clearly i was wrong

In other words, you think you don't have an adequate cult following on ATS! There will always be two sides of a coin.

The best course of action is to have an open mind. A fence sitter. This way you can have the cake and eat it too! Dig?

Cheers!

Originally posted by mikesingh
In other words, you think you don't have an adequate cult following on ATS! There will always be two sides of a coin.

The best course of action is to have an open mind. A fence sitter. This way you can have the cake and eat it too! Dig?

Mike! You closed-minded, immature skeptic! How dare you disagree with him!

reply to post by TruthTellist


The logic you are using makes no sense. The object of science is to have a theory or idea and then set out to prove it. The theory is some UFOs are extraterrestrial in nature. Now the idea is for me to prove it, not someone who is skeptical to prove the negative. It is impossible for someone to disprove that theory, just like it is impossible to disprove Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny don't exist.

I am the first one to state there is plenty of evidence, but no concrete proof (the government may have it somewhere). Many of the cases or persons involved will turn out to be wrong or downright liars. We have to keep looking for the answers. The skeptics keep us real, and on the right tracks. Otherwise, we would fall for every con in the business.

Final thought: The researchers are the ones who have to get off their a$$es and do the research and field work, not the skeptics. The truth is out there, and we have to work for it.

Woah OP! Relax, don’t do it!
Let me tell ya : If I finally witness something ‘extra’ordinary, I’m gonna drop the bomb everywhere.
I guess you took offense that some debunkers tried make a hoaxer out of you
Perhaps your big mistake is to assume that there is this “safe” place on the net immune to disinfo, trolls and haters (no offense to ATSers)
I always wonder about the aftermath of a ufo witness who tried to share his/her experience. Like after, he/she has been supposedly debunked, what if that poster was a credible witness with a real experience? It must be very frustrating indeed.

The analysis of experts is what will definitely prove if something is extraterrestrial or not, however keep in mind that there is the human alter ego (the super intelligent human) in competition with the more-advanced life from out of space. Just notice how the majority of experts/debunkers will gleefully vent the human scientific prowess but when it comes to the probability of intelligent alien life, you will see a change in attitude.

Also there’s something that seems out of balance here. It seems as if the debunkers and not the reasonable skeptics have the advantage; with Photoshop, CGI and an insatiable amount of people willing to create hoaxes, it’s becoming near impossible to prove anything. I mean, don’t ask witnesses to provide a piece of an alien craft when all they have is pictures/videos. And even when we’d have an authentic image of some kind of otherworldly craft, we’d still have the Nwo/Bluebeam or any mundane phenomena for dismissal. But who’s partners in crime here, ufo enthusiasts/hoaxers or hoaxers/debunkers? Humm… seems to me that the debunking has more to benefit from the hoaxes.
Which is why I think it would ultimately take an occurrence like something coming from a “V” series or Independence Day movie for undeniable proof.

Anyway, Op don’t stress yourself too much. Truth, like evidence, are sovereign, they don’t belong to anybody. It’s there for ALL to see.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by TruthTellist

 

The logic you are using makes no sense. The object of science is to have a theory or idea and then set out to prove it. The theory is some UFOs are extraterrestrial in nature. Now the idea is for me to prove it, not someone who is skeptical to prove the negative. It is impossible for someone to disprove that theory, just like it is impossible to disprove Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny don't exist.

I am the first one to state there is plenty of evidence, but no concrete proof (the government may have it somewhere). Many of the cases or persons involved will turn out to be wrong or downright liars. We have to keep looking for the answers. The skeptics keep us real, and on the right tracks. Otherwise, we would fall for every con in the business.

Final thought: The researchers are the ones who have to get off their a$$es and do the research and field work, not the skeptics. The truth is out there, and we have to work for it.

Yeah if someone believes that life out in the Universe is real, i accept that! Thats there belief! I respect that! I don't want Proof!

When someone believes in God i don't turn round and say ''PROVE GOD EXISTS''. I accpet peoples beliefs! Unlike some!

If someone comes on and says that they have been on board a UFO or on another Planet. I'll ask them (with respect) ''CAN YOU SHOW ME ANY POOF''. If they say i haven't got any, thats fine.