How should we help the lower income people?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


It's the production that I really object to. You've probably seen the documentaries about how dangerous it is, and how the toxic ingredients can defile the land and house used for prouction for years.

To help the poor . We first need to classify the poor .

We have 3 separate types .

1 we have homeless
2 welfare recipients
3 working poor

We have many factors causing the problems . One big contributing factor to all the classes is when we allowed corporations to ship good paying jobs over seas . This dumping of labor on the market rearranged many job markets . Many of these workers moved down a notch . Some moved up the job market . And some found similar jobs . The net effect is the $30 /hr auto worker now in droves filled the next tier down and that tier moved down ect . Then net effect there was a glut of workers looking for work ready to fill any job . And it wasnt just auto workers customer service call lines tech support electronics assemblers almost you name it its been shipped over seas . All the wages that were pumped into our economy and local state and fed gov via taxes , now is pumped into the corporate pocket minis the penance that over seas workers are getting for the same job that was here . Plain and simple glut of workers in the market a business can pay less for a worker and offer less benefits .

This leaves a glut of workers on the market for every job . A friend runs a small spec home construction company. Last time he put out a help wanted for a roofer he got 2 Mexican nationals a ex computer programmer a machinist and a welder a bunch of high school grads and a single mother all looking for a job . 10 years ago all you would have gotten for that job was Mexican nationals being in the southwest no one else wanted those jobs. .

Now if we want to help the poor . We need to spur our economy keep good jobs here not ship them off . If not we all will be joining the poor . IF our economy tanks we all will be joining them very soon .

The cost of living apartment rent auto insurance food and clothing needs to be accessible either lowered to give access now or wages raised to allow a frugal existence with at or near min wage.

Changing these 2 areas would do wonders for poor group 1 , 2 , and 3 . Of course there is some in group 2 that wouldn't work if you handed them a 100k a year job on a silver platter to them I have no recommendations for that one. But right now if you look at min wage or heck even figure a $10 / hr job 40/week with out taxes fica . 400 / week 1200/ month most likely $1000/ m take home . Now look at welfare public assisted housing lost rent is $400-600/month + utilities $200/m no more health care for the kids health insurance $200/m car insurance 50- 150 /m . low end $850 of expenses now they have to buy food and lunches for the kids plus cloth them . $150 for food for a month Does that make sense is that really an incentive to get off welfare ?

And for group 1 they have extra needs they need a place to get on their feet . If there were a limited time frame say 3 -6 months group housing no fees no rent no drugs no alcohol or they are out give them a chance to get back on their feet . To help these people gov agency's could pay a min wage for trash pick up weed control or any of the many other things that they could be used for .

And group 3 if nothing is done soon I and many other people In the US will be joining those ranks soon ,

The mere illegal nature of the street drugs is a big culprit behind their use to begin with (or at last the selling of them)

You really think so? You think people use the drugs just because some authority is telling them they can't? Most people are rational. They don't rebel for as frivolous a reason as this. They take the drug as a choice, as a means for relieving pain or distress. How they would come to believe that taking drugs will solve any problem stems from a series perturbed though processes in itself; people are idiots. And one point that you probably won't like. People do drugs because they are fun. Some people get a thrill out of being reckless. I do realize that I said people are rational earlier in this post. But the thrill of recklessness or participation in reckless behavior may in fact be an important mode of sociability in whatever particular group is taking these drugs, whether in a peer influenced situation, or through other induced social pressures. The social benefit of taking a drug sometimes appears to far outweigh the consequences and risks of its usage. And this is the greater underlying problem. That people are unaware of the consequences and dangers to themselves and those around them more importantly of taking these drugs. If they aren't educated about them, and aren't taking them in a strictly controlled environment, where they are not affecting anyone else but themselves, then they are putting innocent people at unwarranted risk.

People are free to pursue their own liberty but not to the extent that they may impinge on other peoples' security.

Personally, I don't hate people because they've taken drugs or even if they've decided to abuse their own bodies. I just can't tolerate people that believe that taking drugs are their own decision, and because of that it makes it inherently right to engage in those drugs in whatever mode suits them best, whether it's at home in front of their kids, or bumming around in front of a local grocery store. You have personal freedoms and rights and then you have civil and familial responsibilities. People have to learn to distinguish the two, and apply them in the appropriate setting.

It is my belief that if drugs were ever to be made illegal, those people must be licensed in order to take any recreational drug. They should be required to partake in a one week course concerning the risks and responsibilities of taking such drugs, their proper administration, and subsequently undergo psychological examination to be deemed sane enough to take them. But look how much bureaucracy you need to maintain such a equable system. It's easiest to make the activity completely illegal and be done with it. Cause and effect is a surprisingly powerful force. If someone goes to jail for doing drugs, less people will likely follow that individual, and although that individual might continue returning to jail indefinitely, a greater proportion of the population would learn from that individual's mistakes.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by Bunch
Why is it that in this country helping the poor through goverment programs is seen in such a bad light?

Because, the system is flawed, and is more often then not, abused.

Helping the poor is bad, is amounts to socialism and things of that nature is said in these boards on a daily basis.

Would you rather help the poor via governmental financial aid, or would you rather see the poor make something of themselves? The problem with the 'America Dream' today is, it is expected, but people do not want to work hard to achieve it.

Many of the people that say this come from a party that proud themselves of their high moral and religious values... Isn't a good thing to help those in need?

Well of course it is good to help those in need, and when Americans are not being retroactively overtaxed, studies show that average Americans contribute more in the form of aid.

Wasn't that one of those things that Jesus did and preach about throughout his life?

Again, why should it be the governments responsibility? Do you trust the government to spend YOUR hard earned tax dollars better than you yourself can?

What have you done personally of late to help some of those in need

What have you done?

Nah... but is never the rich folk fault, they are too smart in the eyes of many, they should be respected and adulated...is the poor folk that made the decision of investing in the stock market, is the hard working fella that shouldn't have taken the loan, is the poor folk that is at fault for not been born with a silver spoon to his mouth.

what does this have to do with people who bought houses they couldn't afford in the first place? Responsibility need be taken, this wasnt simply the 'big n' rich' who are at fault for this mess.

And while we have gave them billions in tax cuts, and billions in bailouts some people CRY foul when is suggested that we should also help those whose life have been ruined by these highly respected and adulated individuals and companies.

Tax cuts spur economic growth, as more jobs will be created as a result.

Please someone explain me what we should do to help those who need help during these tough economic times? or should we not help them at all?

I am for aid, but not in the form of government aid. I would not like to see my country turn into a welfare state watched closely by the nanny big government.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by West Coast]

[edit on 29-10-2008 by West Coast]

A /mainly/ vegetarian diet uses far less water and land than a meat based one. It takes about 50,000 litres of water to produce a kilo of meat and 200 or so for a kilo of wheat. 13-14 vegans can live off the same amount of land as one meat eater.
I'm not preaching, I eat meat sparingly, sometimes, but it would really help 3rd world countries if the first world and China were to reduce meat intake.

Originally posted by cognoscente
Ameratsu: John Adams expressed this nicely.

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

It seems that any sufficiently advanced society tends to gravitate toward socialism. Now couple the political paradigm of socialism with an economic paradigm of abundance. That combined socioeconomic notion, I believe, is the ultimate goal of any intelligent society or culture.

Of course, John Adams' love for learning was unparalleled. And this may have lent to some of the bias in the above quote.

I am not sure that "socialism" is the proper term in an abundance paradigm...

Socialism suggests a governmental body taking care of the people. But in the high-tech, resource-based economy, the robots bring the needs and wants to one's door (figuratively and literally). One has all one wants. One is capable of following one's bliss. And there really is no governing body. There are no politics as we know them - most politics arise from a need to spend money, after all.

I'm not a real religious person but a few quotes from the Bible make alot of sense.

The main quote from the Bible that pertains to this discussion is " Give a Man a fish and feed him for a day and teach a Man to fish and feed him for a lifetime"

Getting people gainfully employed and eliminating the economics of illegal drugs would be the first step to making everyone independent of welfare.

1.)Education and jobs.
Trade schools, like they have in Europe for those that are interested in trade related careers that still provide a good living.

It would keep families together and begin to help decrease the number of single parent households permitting unsupervised children from turning to crime.

2.) Quell the illegal drug trade and economy by legalizing all drugs and treating it as a medical malady, using the tax revenues to get people off of drugs.

3.) Eliminate the inflation tax.
Our Federal Reserve based inflationary monetary system, shares much of the blame as to why prices keep increasing. As prices rise faster than wages do then people are actually earning less and less and have to work and borrow more to maintain the same standard of living.
Inflation is why most if not all households require two working people today.

4.)Make College education free.
Reward those whom have persevered in academics and provide them with a college education instead of burdening them and their parents with more debt.
Pay for this by cutting some of the defense budget Billions of dollars of tax dollars spent on Bombers and Laser/GPS guided weapons that are fairly useless against enemies in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Okay, this is how we can 'help the lower income people';


Are you ready for it?


Here it comes,...


We teach them to learn how to help themselves!


Everything else is irrelevent. For once they learn how to help themselves, they will no longer need help from outside sources.



[edit on 10/29/2008 by agent violet]

reply to post by West Coast


I agree with you on many aspects, specially when it comes to the welfare system been flawed, there is no questions about that. Also I agree that some people do need to help themselves.

People should not be rewarded for doing nothing, but thats not my point. My point is that there is people in this country who truly need help and for a wide variety of reasons, specially in this current economic environment. Those who have lost jobs, those who have seen their retirement plans go up in smoke, those who need some help to buy food, pay for utility bills that have sky rocketed, single parents, parents with children that have special needs, those who need health care among many others that don't include the people that just sit at home waiting for their welfare check.

All this people should be help and when you have a governemnt that is willing to bailout big private corporations, are willing to spend a ridiculous amount of dollars in building infrastructure on foreign countries that mostly go to waste and corruption, dont you think that the very least that we could do is take care of our own people that need some kind of support?

You ask about what I have done lately to help those in need, I have participated in many Habitat For Humanity projects, I have donated money, clothes, toys, food in many ocassions. Helping Veterans is also a big deal for me, as I'm currently serving in the military and have also experienced the horrors of war.

I try to do my part, and as more I see in many of the activities that I get involved it really has open my eyes to the amount of people that REALLY need help, and I'm only talking in the area and the state that I live which is Colorado which RANKS 8TH in the nation when it comes to highest income per capita so I can't even imagine how people are doing in other states. And like I said I'm not talking about people just sitting around and waiting for a welfare check, I'm talking about people that REALLY need some support.

And the more a hear in the news about people losing jobs, people losing houses, people getting layoffs it just makes me think that the situation as dire as it is, it just going to get worst.

This is a reality that we can not erase by simply looking the other way, the big companies are heard becasue they have their powerful lobbyist right at the White House doorstep but this people that really are in a desperate situation...WHO TAKES THE TIME TO HEAR THEIR PLEA?



[edit on 29-10-2008 by Bunch]

Giving people a reason to hope is the main thing... the current welfare programs are punative in nature and will punish with a cut in aid if they try to get off of it... and the thing is most of the low income people on it will rarely make anything near enough to get off of it clear and easy whether because they have children or not enough skills or the jobs where they live just don't pay... so they are stuck. If they get something workwise they stand to lose food stamps or medicare or daycare and the cost to replace such necessities often exceed what they are bringing in.

A big start is to stop making people like crap because they need help, then help them in a meaningful way... for example... you have to make under $720 a month (for a single person) to get food stamps. $720... no one can live on that.