Why do abductees have to educate skeptics?

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

This is a big problem in Ufology. Most of the researchers want all the cases to be extraterrestrial to the point of not even considering any other explanation.

Agreed. But some, like Stanton Friedman don't even do a lot of conjecturing. He just deals in documents and facts.

The area does need research, not just hypnotic regression stories that could be fantasy based.

Agreed. I would really love to know what happened after I blacked out during each of these experiences but have shied away from regression. I want to keep my mind pure. I know what I know and not a drop more. This way I can never enter into the argument that I confabulated my story during a session. I just don't trust the process. This is partially why I consider myself my own best critical skeptic. I always questioned my own experiences until phyiscal evidence showed up. It wasn't the kind of evidence to convince others, but it was the kind that convinced me.

The abductee stories with physical evidence on the victims is quite interesting, and that should be looked at. It should also be determined if the wounds are inflicted by oneself or another person before stating aliens.

I agree again. Those "scoop marks" as they call them look like fingernail marks and someone finding a shard of glass in their foot is hardly and implant.

No one wants to hear they may have a mental illness. That can be a real stigma when trying to give someone the help they need. This should also be addressed if we want to find out what is really going on.

Yes, and if I do have a mental illness, I wish I knew what it was and am willing to listen to theories.

Spooky things happen to good, honest, normal people all the time that can't be explained easily. (but may have a scientific explanation) The more grounded one is, the less likely you are to share such experiences with someone you just met. So the most vocal people are the ones who tend to be Looney and this only further enforces the sane people to keep their mouths shut.

A light in the sky isn't really anything I would consider evidence. A massive ship over ones house at a 50 foot distance isn't really good evidence of aliens (as it could be our own stuff) but is interesting nonetheless. If it is something a terrestrial government possesses then they are clearly hiding technology which could be of benefit to mankind.
And if it’s ETs then it’s relevant to mankind. Either way, not all UFOs can be call Venus or swamp gas.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


"Agreed. But some, like Stanton Friedman don't even do a lot of conjecturing. He just deals in documents and facts."
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There are no documents that prove alien abductions! As for dear old Stanton! I have to admit that I dont find him convincing. Again, he only wants to talk to believers. Those who don't believe are fools in his eyes.
What I'm saying is that 99% of the time there are no fools involved in this phenomena. Just people having strange experiences and people who are interested in finding out what is causing those strange experiences!

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I'm wondering about something that is really confusing me. What do skeptics hope to get out of going on a thread and providing the “simple explanation” that makes the abductee say, “ooohhhhh…. It was just temporal epilepsy sleep paralysis! I was so silly to think that aliens would snatch me for experiments.”???

Do skeptics join in to ‘help’ abductees see the error in their ways? If one doesn’t believe in something at all, why in the world would you want to read about it from someone that does?

Never in my life have I visited the organization’s web page (if they even have one) that believes in a Flat-Earth. It’s too ridiculous for me to even entertain that notion. I certainly wouldn’t waste my time going on a forum and debating with them about all the evidence contrary to their beliefs. I mean, if they don’t believe the world is round, I’m not going to convince them. But could I taunt and torment them….well yes. For my own entertainment! Is that why the skeptics join in on the abduction debate, for entertainment?

I have actually went to the moon landing hoax sites, since it seems there are many who believe in that. It’s almost worth reading about and debating with them, but I see on ATS that horse has been beat to death so I don’t even bother.

But if I was a die-hard skeptic of abduction… If I never had an experience and didn’t think it was likely or possible, I would have a tendency to just ignore those threads. Let all the loonies talk to each other I would think.

So seriously, what in the world is the motivation of the skeptics on these threads?

Is it to enlighten people like me? How’s that going to happen?

“Oh it was just me dreaming. My bad! I never realized it because I’m unqualified to understand the extreme complexities of the mind. Gosh I sure am glad you told me about that. I’m all better now.”

Lastly, if a person tells me they are against hunting for food with a gun, but isn’t a vegetarian it just seems ridiculous. The idea of believing in ETs from outer space visiting our planet but then NOT believing that it’s at least possible they are abducting people is a silly notion! At least then they have a scientific purpose in visiting. It would also explain why they haven’t conquered us and keep a low profile. That’s would good scientist do. i.e. keep the system as unaffected by your presence as possible and study discretely.

By the way, Stanton doesn't deal with Alien Abductions because there is no documentation. Exactly. Never said he did. That response was to a "UFO researcher" remark. Sorry



[edit on 30-10-2008 by JonInMichigan]

reply to post by spacedout


I am guilty of this, but let me explain a few things to you about the subject. First off, I work in the sleep medicine field, and run studies on a nightly basis. Every night, at every lab I have worked at, I hear stories about how this person has “special” circumstances, and they honestly believe that their situation is unique. They will also, always, self diagnose a reason why those circumstances are occurring. 100% of the time, in my firsthand personal experience, they are WRONG...

The problem is that your brain emits a hallucinogenic chemical (among others) when it goes to sleep, which causes certain known experiences. Now the person who is in this altered state is both the only witness to it, and the one diagnosing it. Hardly an objective opinion nor proper scientific method by any measure. They translate things according to their personal understanding of what they believe is happening in relation to what they understand about reality under normal circumstances. Being asleep is not a normal circumstance, in that the brain is in a chemically altered state. Considering that your brain is your only connection to the real world, these experiences can seem as real as anything they experience at other times. Stage one sleep is the most tricky, in that people are just starting to nod off, and often think they are still awake during the experience, yet with a polygraph we can observe the changes in brainwaves indicating sleep onset.

I have had people try and tell my why they get up to go to the bathroom excessively at night, why they always wake at the same time every night, why they cannot sleep on their back, why they jump before falling asleep, why their legs twitch, why they hear noises, etc. They always give a rational reason why this or that is occurring. Yet... When we fix the true, underlying issue(s), it always stops happening. Much to their amazement. Now, This is not something you can learn form reading a book on subjects such as sleep paralysis, hypnogognia, or sleep apnea, it is the type of stuff that you have to experience first hand sitting in the technicians seat.

Additionally, I am not just picking on Alien Abduction stuff here either, but rather any paranormal experience that occurs when someone is asleep, falling asleep, waking up, or even meditating. Some of these events can happen to people with cataplexy or narcolepsy issues, even when they believe they are fully awake. You cannot tell what is going on with your brain unless you have an EEG machine hooked up to monitor it, period... Thus you cannot tell if what you are experiencing is real, or a complex set of hallucinations that seem as real as the computer screen you are looking at right now.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


"“Oh it was just me dreaming. My bad! I never realized it because I’m unqualified to understand the extreme complexities of the mind. Gosh I sure am glad you told me about that. I’m all better now.”
"
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Sarcasm really Isn't your strong point is it?
You appear to be one of those believers who will not listen to, or take note, of any other theory other than the abduction hypothesis. If someone really has been abducted the only way to prove it is to minutely investigate the myriad of cases looking for that one that contains pure gold. "They must be out there if this is fact?"
Some abductees may be able to cope with their experiences, real or not, while some may develope health problems. However, it does no one any favours to just let people live a lie. I personally don't discount the abduction experience. I used to take part for a short while in an abductees help work shop where those affected by this could share their experiences and offer advice. Did I believe them all? "NO". But al least they were willing to share their experiences! Their stories didn't become the sole property of believers. . .

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
Do skeptics join in to ‘help’ abductees see the error in their ways? If one doesn’t believe in something at all, why in the world would you want to read about it from someone that does?

For the same reason that someone works in the medical field to begin with. I see many people on Internet Sites being given poor advice by people who wish take advantage of them with bad facts/information, and sometimes with a less then honorable agenda. When someone asks in earnest for help on a topic, I know that I try and help them with honest answers that are based on facts, as opposed to the new age speculation that they often encounter here (which is normally someones personal belief/opinion with no basis in reality). Basically, I think many of us do it to help people.

reply to post by defcon5


Excellent post! I'll star that! If every skeptic kept it polite and scientific, as you did, I would love the input whenever it came.

Let me paint a picture (this is not meant to be sarcastic so please don’t take it that way… serious questions here…)
The scary thing to ponder is that if you cannot tell reality from the dream state; if there really is NO WAY to tell, then how do I know I’m not lying in a hospital bed right now with a feeder in my arm because I had closed head injury when I was a kid and have been unconscious in a coma for my whole life?

How do I know I didn’t dream my whole life from the moment I fell of my bike when I was a kid? I dreamed I got a skinned knee, my mom fixed it and made it all better. I dreamed that I went to college and then to graduate school. I dreamed that I got a job working for a defense contractor. I dreamed that designed weapons to defend the county but that idiot Bush blew up Iraq with them. And now I’m dreaming we are about to hand over this country to a bunch of socialists….. uh oops sorry…

… got off on a bit of a tangent. The point is, if I really and truly can’t tell when I’m dreaming and when I’m awake, then how can I ever be grounded in any of the reality I’m experiencing. If I think about that sort of thing too long then I wonder if I’ll become unstable and end up in an asylum drooling on myself. (And yes, it is like matrix but not a new concept.)

Abductees believe they are awake. From my own experience I would swear in court, or to god, or whatever I was awake. I think I can tell the difference. Your post is convincing in that I really might be mistaken, but that just calls into question whether or not anything is real if I truly can’t tell and that doesn’t sit well with me, but I’ll entertain the idea that it’s possible.

One question though. What about the gosh darn physical evidence!!! I have seen the puncture wounds on me right afterwards. I have seen my dog in a state of complete and total sleep, not to be awakened for over an hour.
How to you vigorously shake a lab retriever and not wake it up. (waving a biscuit in front of its face no less!)

reply to post by JonInMichigan


What you say is interesting. You would swear you're awake. So would most abductees!
There's a case that UFO investigator, Jenny Randles, talks about where an abductee said she had been abducted by aliens and taken aboard their craft etc. She went on to pass a lie detector test so she was clearly telling the truth, or the truth as she understood it. The problem arose when her family came forward and said that she was with them while she was supposedly being abducted. They said she was acting as if she was drunk or high on drugs.
If it can be that real that it's hard to seperate the fact from fantasy, and you can actually pass a lie detector test, then you can understand why it effects people so strongly and why they believe so passionately. But, I'm sorry to say, it doesn't make it real. . .

Irregardless of the exaggeration you brought up, the grey area is for people to share experiences hopefully to scratch below the surface, not to have to wade through post after post of personal attacks. Self moderating for that category at least would help the tougher people deal with these issues better. I still won't be starting my own thread for the reason that I really don't know the best way to handle them. I remember someone writing to me after being personally attacked, asking how I managed to be so polite. Well, I had to rewrite the post 3 times, the first two were probably bannable responses. But I was shaking for a while. Its not necessary for bullies to come on and repeat the same things over and over again, and when they don't work to start personally attacking people in ways that don't suddenly educate them but instead feel like being assaulted.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by mystiq]

[edit on 30-10-2008 by mystiq]

Originally posted by mystiq
Irregardless of the exaggeration you brought up, the grey area is for people to share experiences hopefully to scratch below the surface, not to have to wade through post after post of personal attacks. Self moderating for that category at least would help the tougher people deal with these issues better. I still won't be starting my own thread for the reason that I really don't know the best way to handle them. I remember someone writing to me after being personally attacked, asking how I managed to be so polite. Well, I had to rewrite the post 3 times, the first two were probably bannable responses. But I was shaking for a while. Its not necessary for bullies to come on and repeat the same things over and over again, and when they don't work to start personally attacking people in ways that don't suddenly educate them but instead feel like being assaulted.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by mystiq]

[edit on 30-10-2008 by mystiq]

I'm, as you may have already realised, a sceptic but I think you come across as a descent person whose story and experiences should be told. Who knows your story may contain that nugget of gold that I'm always searching for in these cases, or at the very least may help someone else going through similar events...

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
The scary thing to ponder is that if you cannot tell reality from the dream state; if there really is NO WAY to tell, then how do I know I’m not lying in a hospital bed right now with a feeder in my arm because I had closed head injury when I was a kid and have been unconscious in a coma for my whole life?

You are correct, you cannot really tell this. Your brain can be tricked in many ways to believe that something is true, which just is not the case. Normally, REM dreams are not as realistic as hallucinations that are associated with certain sleep disorders, however. The reason for this is that the hallucination superimposes itself over reality, reinforcing the belief that it was a real experience rather then a waking dream. This stuff actually happens over a very short time period, but to the person experiencing it, seconds may seem like minutes, and minutes may seem like hours. I have never heard of minutes seeming like days or years though.

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
Abductees believe they are awake. From my own experience I would swear in court, or to god, or whatever I was awake.

This is the same way that many people I work with swear that they have insomnia, yet when we place them on a polygraph they really fall asleep very quickly, have a respiratory event, and wake back up (sometimes over and over, for hours on end). Causing them to think that they have been awake for hours, when it was really only minutes. I can give thousands of examples of how peoples perception is askew when they are in some state of sleep, but I have to go to bed here shortly myself. Unfortunately I have to work the night shift...

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
One question though. What about the gosh darn physical evidence!!! I have seen the puncture wounds on me right afterwards. I have seen my dog in a state of complete and total sleep, not to be awakened for over an hour.
How to you vigorously shake a lab retriever and not wake it up. (waving a biscuit in front of its face no less!)

I'd have to go back and read your post on this, which I do not have time for until tonight. I admit that I skimmed the thread a bit due to time constraints. I will tell you that waking up with marks on your body is not a significant event in itself, as there are many terrestrial issues which can cause this to happen. Also dogs go into REM sleep like anyone else does, and REM periods tend to coincide with these types of events. REM periods are set by the sun (circadian rhythm) and they will happen at roughly the same time for most non-nocturnal creatures. Cats and Dogs are frequently used in sleep research for this reason. Not being able to wake someone/thing from REM is not uncommon.

Anyway, I'll get back to you in more detail later on tonight after I have read it more throughly.
Later

reply to post by defcon5





Well as far as evidence goes that's about it. You won't get a whole lot more out of my post other than I saw something on top of my house and verified later that it was actually there.

Once again you have made a good point. My abduction experiences rarely took more than 15-30 min as the clock goes.
In other words, from the time I though they caused the paralysis until it was over was never more than about 30 min.

I never had a 3 hour lost period that I can recall. So that does lend some credence to your theory.

So, because I don't believe I'm getting abducted any more... it hasn't happened in 7 years or so.... does that mean I got "better"?

Do things like narcolepsy and temporal epilepsy get better and go away. I would have an experience / episode from once a month to once a week at times. After the last one I never had another, ever. And that last one was one in which I made a promise to myself to find the answers I wanted, no matter what. I wasn’t able to fight the black-out like I wanted to and eventually did black-out, but not until I got a good look at my roof, the ship, etc.

So supposing that was all in my mind, did I somehow cure myself of my mental issue? (I don’t mean that with sarcasm….seriously… is it possible that I cured myself or coincidentally became cured?)

If they were still happening I think I would check myself into a sleep study program, but since I have no problems now there’s no point.

I didn’t think epilepsy worked that way though… I thought it was degenerative and would just get worse. It’s food for thought anyway.

This might not be the right place to ask this, but it is the closest to "appropriate" thread I've seen.

I have some honest questions that have been bugging me for a long time. I swear I am not trying to be rude, antagonistic, mean, or anything like that. I'm sincerely puzzled and looking for answers.

Why doesn't someone who's being abducted set up a camera on themselves at night? Or even an audio recorder? Motion detectors with alarms?

I mean .. if I were being abducted .. it seems like there are a bunch of different ways that I could set something up to prove that something was happening to me. Webcam, security cam, .. something. And when people started accusing me of being crazy or making it all up, you better believe that's the first thing I'd be doing - trying to get evidence.

Okay so maybe they do electronic sweeps prior to taking you, or they read your mind and know about the camera, or their magnetic aura interferes with our recording equipment ... etc etc etc .. the more farfetched the excuses get the harder they are to believe, but then what do we know about their technology? Maybe they can spot our "traps" as easily as we could spot an elephant trying to hide in a strawberry patch with his toenails painted red.

But the thing that really floors me is that I've never heard even one abductee say that they TRIED. Why not? Are they going to kill you if you try to "entrap" them? Are they going to not come if you have a live webcam in your bedroom with people watching it? If they didn't, wouldn't that be a good thing for some of you?

Now here is where I am going to possibly cause some of you to get angry with me, but .. the possibility also has to be considered that abductees don't make serious efforts to get evidence because they are afraid to get up one morning after being abducted and find that 8 hours of video shows nothing but perhaps them having a nightmare.

So, if you can, please tell me .. why haven't you ever tried to get evidence of your abductions? And if you have tried, what happened?

Well, I think the thing to take into consideration is, can you imagine, just for a minute, what if these people really did get abducted? I cannot possibly comprehend how horrible it would be to go through something like that and have society tell you it's not real.....it's tantamount to someone getting horribly raped by someone much bigger and stronger than them....than being told that it never happened, they're just crazy. That would suck.

I personally don't have the money for fancy equipment. I have one digital camera that works off and on. When the lense doesn't open, I have to bounce it on the couch a few time. I would like to replace that down the road with a nice slr digital nikkon, then maybe get a telescope and an infared, but as a single mother of 5 boys, this is going to take years.

From what I've read it would be useless to set this up however. They don't allow electrical things to work. If it was that simple, the more comfortable abductees would have managed to get some pretty decent video and auditory evidence by now.

Originally posted by mystiq
They don't allow electrical things to work.

I thought it might be something like that. Okay.

So there's a webcam or DVR set up, and at 1:30am it suddenly goes off line and stops working. Then at 2:15am it comes back on and works fine the rest of the night. We can clearly see the "subject(s)" in bed when the camera goes off, and probably when it comes back on. Wouldn't that, in and of itself, be evidence? It would be for me.

Besides, if they "don't allow electrical things to work," does that mean alarm clocks and night lights and other electrical things stop working or lose time? If so, that too would be evidence.

I've seen Ghost Hunters and other paranormal shows use malfunctioning equipment as evidence, so why wouldn't it be equally valid for alien abductions? At least it would be something that you can point to and say "this substantiates that it's not all in my head!"

There are also UFO Hunter and UFO investigation groups and teams just like there are ghost hunter teams. Surely one of those groups would loan an abductee a webcam or a DVR?

Mind you, I am in no way implying that anyone is lying or crazy, I am suggesting that ANY kind of external physical evidence would help y'all's case immensely and give you a proverbial leg to stand on when the skeptics attack.

Hey, I wonder if that could be a new Fox TV show: When Skeptics Attack!

[edit on 31-10-2008 by Heike]

reply to post by spacedout


abductions have no place in reality.. thats why there is so much skepticism... there is just no proof... besides a sleep disorder, no one can give any proof that they were taken away... no witnesses.. no loved ones..all being done right under everyones nose.. but not one person has claimed they have seen someone being taken... there are millions of people who are awake at night... and if these abductions were taking place.. someone would see something.. ?? And if you have been abducted.. and you want it to stop.. just set up a camera... to film it... no one has ever been abducted while someone is watching. problem solved.

The ones who do set up both cameras and auditory have them shut off and the batteries drained, or malfunctioned. They only do this when they awake with memories and/or physical wounds. Sleep paralysis goes only so far. Because this is exactly how greys and possibly others take their targets. So, with different theories as to why the person experienced a certain set of symptoms, ie. different things, all you can do if you're logical is make a list on a sheet of paper covering all the possible explanations from the most probable (to you and that may be subjective. Because if you have some very bad memories of an abduction, and physical wounds on your body, not to mention post traumatic shock syndrom then abduction would be top of the list, but if you experienced these symptoms and had vague dreams without any other signs of ufos, then sleep paralysis may be top of your list.) Now in the end, people will be disagreeing, right. As you can see, lists of probabilities and possibilities does not confirm anything. Other things have to be taken into account.
But as for my sighting of a grey at 5, and my sons more recent one, we were wide awake. He had a clue what he was looking at, due to exposure to this stuff. I had no idea. I spent years going from the ugly faerie theory to thinking there was a mutant race of ants or praying mantis types hiding away, possibly formed by radioactive waste when I was a teenager.

[edit on 31-10-2008 by mystiq]

reply to post by spacecowgirl


I'm going to try to give just one skeptic's view. I never post in abduction story threads, because I have no relevant experience or information. I have never been abducted, have never seen a UFO. I came to ATS for entirely unrelated reasons, having mostly to do with distrust of the media and of the dichotomization of believer vs. unbeliever that crops up in one form or another throughout our society.

Once I got here, I found that a number of people whose posts I really respect had their own abduction story threads. This fascinated me, and I started reading them.

I learned about sleep paralysis, which I have experienced.

I've seen some trolls (and I don't consider Defcon to be one in this thread) who do seem to come to these threads just to tell you you're crazy and sick. For what it's worth, that happens in most of the other forums too, from Paranormal to Cryptozoology to Psychology and Medical Conspiracies. I don't know why they do it, but the only thing to do is ignore them.

I have seen skeptics who want to offer alternative explanations for consideration. All you have to do is say, respectfully, thanks for your opinion, but I've considered that possibility and it doesn't fit my case.

Usually, they will back off, knowing that they've done what they can to apply their knowledge. If they don't, you can report them. In the meantime, their posting the question and your answering it has allowed a person like me to see the question and the answer. And I am that much closer to believing in the phenomena of abduction and to knowing how to help or just how to talk to someone about it.

If you are truly here only for support in your trauma, ATS is probably not the right forum. There are support forums out there, as you yourself point out, which restrict membership to believers.

A little side note here: one of my personal struggles is with depression. When I need support in dealing with the difficulty and trauma it has caused in my life, I turn to therapists and friends. When I post about it on ATS, I do so in the understanding that I will be told it's a character flaw and I should just find something I enjoy, and that antidepressants are evil. But I post about it because I think that sharing my experience could help someone else, either someone in my shoes or someone who is skeptical but willing to listen to personal experiences.

I am not saying that you should not discuss your experience. I'm just saying that you should protect yourself in who you share it with. If being questioned about it causes more trauma, then perhaps you are not ready to share it with the public, and you would be better served by a private forum. That doesn't mean that you would never be able to speak out on it, just that this might be too soon, you might need a stronger support net before you face the skeptics.

But ATS is not about private forums and post-traumatic stress support. People offer each other support here because many of us have been through unusual situations. But that support is personal rather than institutional. The forums themselves are for sharing, questioning, and discussing information.

If you can tell your story, and answer the questions, and ignore the trolls, then your experience will reach people like me who haven't made up their minds one way or the other. That can help make abduction stories accepted by the public. I often post to threads more in hopes that I will reach people reading the thread than in hopes that I will reach the specific person I'm responding to. That's the magic of the internet.

I wish you well, and hope you find what you need.

There is no proof that abductions are objectively real ! Some here have asked why abductees haven't set up camera equipment,etc, to catch the abduction taking place... To put it simply, it wouldn't serve no purpose. It's not the way it works. In some cases the abductees partner lieiing next to them in bed doesn't stir even when the victim is shouting and screaming for help. The abduction experience seems to happen outside of normal time and space! This is why it is so easy to debunk as if something is not happening in our normal three dimensional world it would be almost impossible to understand it.
However, I would like to raise another element to the abduction experience, one which I have come across quite often and which would be interesting to hear if those posting on this thread have any dealings with. With the abductees I interviewed I found they were having what I call leaps in learning and understanding. Bear with me. I found that abductees suddenly became poets, excellent artists, suddenly found they had a flair for playing musical instruments or found they could understand foreign languages. It seems that the abduction experience (Real Or Not!) is bringing on a change in certain parts of their brain and their brains functions. How else could a near illiterate man suddenly write page after page of the most moving poetry without,as he said, really trying.

Has anyone else experienced this?