Why do abductees have to educate skeptics?

I have noticed many abductees threads taken over by skeptics who are totally ignorant of the subject and who swamp a testimony with their own ignorant version of events or ignorant theories.
There needs to be some way that abdcutees can moderate their threads as this is a constant and recurring theme.
The skeptics disrail the abductees threads by advising they need psychiatric attention or they just had sleep paralysis. IT is very frustrating for abductees to have to put up with these people who do not seem to work and have all the time in the world to post ad infinitum on their theories and hold abductees threads to ransom.

For starters, most if not all abductees have experienced huge trauma due to their experience. It is again traumatic and brave to come to a website and tell people about their experiences. Then some old skeptic seems to have the right to wander in and stamp all over it and effectively chase off the OP and disrail and kill the thread. Do we abductees have rights? Do we have the right to moderate our threads? If not, why not?

There has to be some solution to this recurring problem.

Admininstrators are welcome to post on how this problem can be solved.

reply to post by spacedout


If abductee's had the right to moderate their own threads, then everybody else should have also. I mean, unless you're suggesting that abductee's are special and deserve extra privileges over other members.

Whether you agree with skeptics or not, this is an open forum and to suggest that a 'skeptic' cannot offer a viable point of view is closed minded. If for arguments sake, you were given the powers to moderate your own thread, would you allow skeptics to speak their minds or would you just remove all their comments?

If everybody was granted the power to mod their own thread, how could we ever deny ignorance? How could we ever learn from alternate points of view? It's the debate over these subjects that enlightens people.

Do you want a 'touchy feelie' thread where the only people that are allowed to contribute are people who agree with you? If so then may I suggest that an open forum is not for you!

If your abduction experience can stand up to the scrutiny of a skeptic, then it only adds further credence to your story. If it can't, then perhaps it didn't really happen in the way you recollect.

IRM

[edit on 27/10/08 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by spacedout


Abductions, contact with other "beings" and intelligences can and must have a meaning, at the very least for the person involved, but due to the content of some of the wisdom shared in such contacts, the meaning usually goes beyond the sphere of a personal experience, where one realizes that some of this is information can really help further others and Humanity as general.

Not being able to share and explain lucidly our experiences with serious and educated skeptics, would be preaching to the choir.

The extremes of these experiences and their contents must be valued, weighed and confronted in terms ALSO of our everyday experience and by others who share with us this world.

Not doing so, can easily make us fall into complacency and self-illusions if the experiences were "uplifting", or into pessimism, depression, and paranoia if their nature was of other kind.

Serious and productive confrontation, like all good debates, can help you clear your mind, search and find the useful and positive of your experience, and hopefully, help "skeptics" open up and consider aspects of this world and our Universe still not fully uncovered.

reply to post by spacedout


Hi Spacedout,

I'm on your side and unfortunately it will always be this way on this forum or off, everywhere you go. Wherever you share your story very few will ever believe and most will consider you insane or delusional. That is a natural reaction coming from a world full of skeptics and modern day scientists/doctors.

Those who have experienced contacts and abductions know for themselves, the problem is most don't know where to turn for answers and support, the worst feeling in the world is not having the answers or knowing WHY it’s happening and having nobody out there you can talk to. I have been there!

So I don't have to re-type myself I will cut and paste a few lines from another post I just put up that is relevant to this thread.

Most contacts/abductees have gone through the same kind of things in one way or another all on different levels.
As a small example I can find online,
Listen to Jim Sparks story if you haven’t already.
Click,
www.youtube.com...

He went through his own type of hellish experience in the beginning, it turned his life upside down, he lost his job, family/divorce, started drinking heavily and pulled a gun out with a bottle of vodka in one hand and the gun in the other just waiting for the greys to show up and take him. He was planning on pulling the trigger when they showed up. It took him many years after to finally grasp what it was all about and calm down.

It took me personally 23yrs to deal with my own personal contact experiences and abductions before I finally received the assurance and answers I had so desperately once been searching for.

This is part of what I have come to realize and learn:


Contact experiences usually only become malevolent to us because we interpret them this way. When I use the word malevolent I guess I am meaning that is how I interpreted the experiences at the time because I DID NOT UNDERSTAND or know any better. LOOKING BACK, the experiences seem that way because you are facing beings you know nothing about for a first time and IT’S SCARY. So most people out there with malevolent stories are telling you their story from the way they interpreted what happened to them WHICH in most cases is not really the way it happened only from human perspective.. Quick comparison: Think of us pulling a monkey from the wild and caging it up, it will of course and naturally be afraid and the monkeys encounter of us would be SCARY and they would consider us evil and malevolent. SAME THING.

.

Et’s contacting and/or abducting us is no different from us studying animals in the wild. These ET’s are above us---far more advanced intellectually and in most cases spiritually and they feel it their so called not only right but responsibility. If you dis-agree with that, then so do all the animals on planet earth. They dis-agree with what we are doing to them and the only difference is they don’t really have a choice in the matter. Count our many blessing we are free souls to choose and act as we please!

We are lucky that ET’s are not as barbaric and cruel as we are or we might just never be returned ever. It’s no doubt we treat animals much worse than ET’s treat us.

I will also add that when people think of an ET most people think of some grey or gross, scary looking creature which is not the case at all. Most ET’s are magnificent and brilliant beings with visible auras, but the one’s most of us face are what we call biological manufactured clones or drone like robots which are basically in short terms-- a living and breathing physical being that is really nothing more than a worker for the ET’s, they are programmed by them for a specific assignment. These biological drones are without a soul. The real ET’s work behind the scenes, it’s not just these grey biological scary robot looking beings that many of us think. Those are what most people face usually upon contact or abduction experiences. Oh by the way these little grey workers come in all sizes, shape, variation forms and even colors.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Malevolent_Aliens]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

If your abduction experience can stand up to the scrutiny of a skeptic, then it only adds further credence to your story. If it can't, then perhaps it didn't really happen in the way you recollect.

The problem with this view is, the two sides are diametrically opposed, with no middle ground, so there ends up not being much in the way of debate, but rather ends up being an endless, unproductive, and childish repetition of "I was abducted by aliens, I remember it, it happened, and you'll not convince me otherwise" versus "No you weren't, there are no aliens abducting people, it was sleep paralysis or a dream, and you'll never convince me otherwise". I imagine it's pretty frustrating for both sides, so why not just agree to disagree?

Neither side can conclusively "prove" their point of view, nor can they conclusively "disprove" the opposing view. So what's the point besides wasted bandwidth? Damned if I know.

Why would someone who absolutely doesn't believe in alien abduction, post anything on a thread where it's obvious the OP absolutely does? Do you hope to open their eyes? Show them the real truth of things and how they are mistaken or deluded? Have you had much luck with this? Might as well try to convince an atheist to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior, or convince an Obama supporter to vote for McCain.

I will say I find the phenomena fascinating, even more so as I, myself, am guilty of it as well. As an example, I know, that it's not a good idea for me, personally, to post anything whatsoever on a BG/FOL thread. Nothing positive will come of my snide and disparaging remarks (no matter how humorous they are and sometimes aren't ), nor am I likely to convince an FOL believer that they are just being gullible in the extreme, no matter how logical (to my way of thinking) my argument may be. But dammit, can't they see how they're being duped and made fools of? I should say something... shouldn't I?? I mean, really, they are being taken advantage of by reprehensible charlatans aren't they? And the making of repeated failed predictions just leaves huge openings for absolute disbelief doesn't it? I struggle to refrain... and sometimes fail and add my post to the frenzy anyway. Sue me.. I'm human.

In the end, I can't absolutely disprove the existence of the FOL, nor can they prove it does exist, lacking any kind of physical evidence. I cannot conclusively prove that Ms. Goodchild is indeed the fraud I think she is. I have no audio or video of her talking about how she plans to prey on the the gullible masses. All I can say is she makes failed sensationalistic predictions in an apparent attempt to drum up business for the products on her website. Which makes a good case (i.e. if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... etc.), but actually proves nothing. It's my opinion.

So what's the solution? How to have more fruitful debate, rather than a litany of polarized repetitions stating "I'm right and you're wrong"? I'm at a loss, as being human we seem all to susceptible to the temptations of the latter, as opposed to the former. I welcome any suggestions you may have.

One further thought. Those of you who quote the ATS motto of "Deny Ignorance" as some kind of justification of any kind of comment they may have. To you I would ask, who defines what is ignorant and what is valid? You? Popular opinion? The site owners and staff (who certainly have the right and ability to enforce their views... but how practical is it for them to take a stance pro or con on every topic... and even if they do take a stance, doesn't make them right... just an opinion they can put forth and enforce through right of ownership)?

Anyway, that's just my long winded 2 cents on what I see as a very prickly problem.

I welcome any insight/comments.

Peace

Originally posted by Resinveins

The problem with this view is, the two sides are diametrically opposed, with no middle ground, so there ends up not being much in the way of debate, but rather ends up being an endless, unproductive, and childish repetition of "I was abducted by aliens, I remember it, it happened, and you'll not convince me otherwise" versus "No you weren't, there are no aliens abducting people, it was sleep paralysis or a dream, and you'll never convince me otherwise". I imagine it's pretty frustrating for both sides, so why not just agree to disagree?

Neither side can conclusively "prove" their point of view, nor can they conclusively "disprove" the opposing view. So what's the point besides wasted bandwidth? Damned if I know.

Why would someone who absolutely doesn't believe in alien abduction, post anything on a thread where it's obvious the OP absolutely does? Do you hope to open their eyes? Show them the real truth of things and how they are mistaken or deluded? Have you had much luck with this? Might as well try to convince an atheist to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior, or convince an Obama supporter to vote for McCain.

Yes you hit the nail on the head. An abductee does not come here to have some skeptic tell them they are wrong or nuts...and yet this is what repeatedly happens and the admin think its all fine. Well it's not fine and something needs to be done about it. Preferable give every thread author a hammer to give them the right to moderate their own threads. We are big kids now, we can do this ourselves you know?

Well I met God once and I have no way to prove it. It is quite pointless to tell it here or to anyone, since the whole purpose of that was for my personal development, it had nothing to do with others.

The same is with abductees, they experience something very personal, almost always impossible to prove. Since their experience might be unpleasent they feel the need to share and reduce that tension, pressure. But the reception they get, is, well, you know like "You're crazy go see a doc".

Two different worlds collide, and conflict is inevitable. How can I tell someone that I believe in God when he's an atheist. It is not that wise. I was an atheist once.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Pericle]

The debunkers will say you're mentally ill, the sceptics will explore alternative explanations such as sleep paralysis while the believers will say you've been kidnapped by Tharg from the planet Arg! Ah, it's the way of things!
There's one way around your problem. Simply keep your experiences, real or unreal, to yourself? Wasn't it Carl Sagan who said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof!" If you can't deliver the proof, and you don't want to educate us non believers and debunkers, simply say nothing.

reply to post by spacedout


While I do agree on many of your points, I also want the researchers to move their research to the next level. The majority still use hypnosis, which is still prone to fantasy and/or leading the witness. I find the cases with implants and other verification quite fascinating. Many people did not want these experiences to happen to them, and there should be ways to find out if it is psychological, neurological or an actual abduction. I believe the vast majority of abductees are not lying and have experienced something. Whether or not it actually is an alien experience is another thing.
If the cases are real, these people still need the help to deal with the ramifications of such a traumatic experience.

The skeptics should ask the questions, but should tread lightly as the person has undergone something none of us could ever imagine. Just listen to the tapes of the Hills, and the terror in their voices. Something bad happened to them, no matter what the naysayers tell us.

We need skeptics.

And I am a person who believes that I had experiences.

Checks and balances.

I joined a discussion some time ago talking about some of my experiences and yep I was barraged (not rudely though for the most part) by the Skeptical crew her on ATS. They said nothing to me, and indeed posed no question to me that I had not already done to myself.

It becomes problematic when a person who has experienced something that conventional explanations just don't seem to "fit" and the skeptics then become rather obnoxious in their attempts to dissuade the experiencer from what they feel and believe.

We would all prefer an easily labeled and categorized "normal" explanation for what we've experienced...sometimes it just doesn't fit regardless of how logical it seems.

It boils down to this. If you believe you've had an experience, have researched all known and conventional explanations, ruled out physical, optical, mental ailments, and you still believe you've experienced something...then it matters not what skeptics say. At the end of the day YOU still have to deal with your experience.

You will always run into egomaniacs and thread bullies...those that insist their reason and logic be accepted in place of your own.

If it was hard for you to accept your own experience imagine how hard it is for others. You are your own protector and I don't think ATS needs to babysit those of us who have had experiences. Self moderation should suffice.

Originally posted by Pericle
Well I met God once and I have no way to prove it. It is quite pointless to tell it here or to anyone, since the whole purpose of that was for my personal development, it had nothing to do with others.

The same is with abductees...


[edit on 28-10-2008 by Pericle]

How on earth could you compare meeting God to being raped by aliens nightly? How?

It is such an ill thought out comparison it defies belief. I can only think you know nothing about the abduction phenomena to make such a comparison?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
There's one way around your problem. Simply keep your experiences, real or unreal, to yourself?

Isn't this whole site all about NOT KEEPING QUIET??About TRUTH being spoken?

If it wasn't for the brave people in history who have come out and spoken the TRUTH like Whitley Streiber, abductees would all think they were mad. This brave man and others, spoke up when morons made jokes about probes and denigraded him, he still spoke up so that the likes of you and the rest of the world could become EDUCATED. He perhaps did so in vain, in your case, however, for an abductee like me, his courage and his voice was invaluable.

If you think the answers in life lie behind a veil of silence you are sadly mistaken. Abductees come here to share with other abductees. We are not interested in what some redneck skeptic from Oklahoma has to say because he hasn't been through it, knows nothing about it and comes from a place of total ignorance. It would be like explaining neurons to cave men. A total and absolute waste of time.

Skeptics are never welcome in an abductees thread due to the fact WE LIVE IT NIGHTLY!!!. We are so beyond the question: are aliens real? We wake up with scars and bruises on our bodies and sometimes with sleepwear inside out and back to front. We find grass clippings in our bed, when we know our feet were clean before we went to bed. I have found myself outside at 3 in the morning with all the doors and windows locked in the house. We have experiences beyond what you could ever imagine so...NO I WON"T BE QUIET. I will NEVER BE QUIET. It is skeptics that need to back off and find some other threads to annoy where they haven't a clue about the subject matter. But they will NEVER be welcome on an abductee thread because our trauma through abduction is too horrific to put up with their shenanigans as well. Compredez?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
If you can't deliver the proof, and you don't want to educate us non believers and debunkers, simply say nothing.

We abductees have no interest in persuading you one way or the other. We just don't care what you think and we certainly are not interested in furnishing you with proof! For what? why would we? We just want to be left alone by the ignorant and uneducated and not have them come and ruin every thread on abductions by their whining "where's the proof". Abductees come here to share with other abductees and anyone else who is "INTERESTED" in knowing the truth. All others are time wasters.
Most abductees welcome questions or interest from people who are new to the topic but I just saw another thread ruined here by a skeptic who kept insisting all abductees were psycho or scitzo. It is that kind of person that is just interested in name calling and derailing to make himself feel safe.

reply to post by Malevolent_Aliens


Thank you for your well considered reply. Yes I am sure I could believe the "goodness" and the "right- ousness" of aliens if I tried harder and had a lobotomy.
The truth is, they are not to be trusted. The truth is, they lied to me and removed my own child from my womb. Not a hybrid, but my own. Which they still have to this day. Can you ask your friendly space brothers to bring my child back please?
Am I angry and bitter about it...you betcha!
Do I have the patience for skeptics after all the cr*p I have been through at the hands of aliens? No way No how!

When you next meet your lovely kind aliens could you please ask them to find my boy and bring him back to his Mother? They can keep all the hybrids they bred from me but can they bring my own boy back please?
Could you please get them to tell my boy that his mother loves him? Can they give him a hug from me? Please?

Originally posted by InfaRedMan



So what's the solution? How to have more fruitful debate, rather than a litany of polarized repetitions stating "I'm right and you're wrong"? I'm at a loss, as being human we seem all to susceptible to the temptations of the latter, as opposed to the former. I welcome any suggestions you may have.

The answer is have abductee threads self moderated. the OP should be able to delete the disrailers and the skeptics. In fact all threads here should be able to be moderated by the OP. It is what most sites have and it works well.

Because the abductee and the skeptic are on divergent timelines, of course.
Take the following example: How can you expect a man to know what it is like to give birth?
People can have unpredictable reactions to things they either don't understand or don't believe and depending on the individual's demeanor, you'll get some variance in their responses.
Dag nab it, ya just never know what people're gonna say, but I think that's half the fun.

Originally posted by 4N6310

People can have unpredictable reactions to things they either don't understand or don't believe

That is my point thank you. Please read thread header: Why do abductees have to educate skeptics? Why can't they find another thread like picking flint out of their navel. Something they would understand.

I totally understand what you are trying to say here. The mods on this site do a wonderful and (sometimes thankless) job here, but you have to realize, are not baby-sitters. I understand the reasoning behind wanting to moderate your own thread, but that in itself would bring up a myriad of other problems.

I would suggest that you author a thread and submit it to the Board Business & Questions Discussion Forum. There the moderators can look at your request and discuss it with other mods and try and find a solution that is viable. This is a deeply personal issue and needs to be handled delicately.


It may be a good idea that you ask if they would consider making an "ABDUTCTEE forum to add the illustrious list of specific forums already in place. It could be moderated by specific administrators whom are sympathetic or have actually had the same experiences, with provisions or specific forum rules in place that the "Abductee Forum" is a place to share experiences or ask questions about those experiences NOT to try and refute, debunk, flame or disagree. Give the staff here a chance, they really know their stuff and work hard to accommodate and help everyone here.

Self moderated threads, especially in such an emotionally charged subject is probably not the way to go. Follow the proper channels if you really want something done, otherwise this thread, although important is just a rant.


Good luck to you all, my heart goes out to you.

A.E.~

reply to post by spacecowgirl


Have you considered the concept that some of your comments may be just as aggravating to skeptics, as their comments are to you?

And the point has been made....if you don't like some of the reactions that you or other alleged abductees, experiencers, etc....get on these open forums....don't post.

No one is forcing you to "endure" any stress in these forums. You are the deciding factor here......Nobody else bears any responsibility for making you feel bad about your ATS experience.

Originally posted by MrPenny
reply to post by spacecowgirl

 

And the point has been made....if you don't like some of the reactions that you or other alleged abductees, experiencers, etc....get on these open forums....don't post.

I have a better idea...all skeptics stay out of abductee threads!!! The cheek of you asking abductees not to post because you and other disrailers and skeptics will come and destroy it! get a grip man! Stay away where you aren't welcome. That should be easy? You would think?