Self Mutilation: Self Injury Disorder

reply to post by Astyanax

Symptom substitution is one of the few psychological mechanisms nearly everyone understands and accepts as true.

Yep. From an SIers standpoint - you bet it’s true. I can't pigeon hole and say for each one, but for the vast majority, yes.

However, there is absolutely no clinical data to suggest that symptom substitution actually exists. It appears that Freud was playing at analogies with thermodynamics and simply pulled out the whole concept out of his hat

Anyyone who thinks *symptom substitution* doesn’t exist? You try to walk a mile in the shoes of ANY SIIer and you’ll know after the first few steps just how absurd that notion truly is.

From your own outside source quote.
And I love it.

While the scientific method cannot prove that symptom substitution does not exist, the lack of credible evidence for it over more than half a century combined with the motivation by psychoanalytic proponents to find and report such evidence strongly suggests that supportive evidence is unlikely to be forthcoming.

In other words it’s just a bunch of psychobabble hooey from some doctors who wish they could - BUT CAN’T PROVE it doesn’t exist.
Boy have they got a lot to learn, lol.

Even if it were not the full explanation, how liberating for a cutter or bulimic to realize that the only thing wrong with them is their cutting or bulimia, which might be treated directly and effectively at the symptom level without embarking on a years-long analytical wild-goose-chase after nonexistent repressed traumas.

Is this sentence making sense to everyone but me?

How liberating for the cutter to realize the only thing...morphs into embarking on years long trauma ...into nonexistent repressed trauma?

HUH?

What are you saying?

Siiers do it for kicks or they’re possessed (as the OP stated)?
And that should be liberating in itself and because it’s all they have to deal with - The SI behavior?
And, no, you wont need years of physiological help because none of what you’re going through existed anyway?

What a bunch a gibberish.

Facts are facts.

CLINICAL FACTS are these.

When an SIIers stress levels go through the roof - for whatever reason - the SI self inflicts injury.
Natural endorphins are released flooding the bloodstream causing a marked decrease in stress levels allowing the person to go on.

That’s clinical proof.

I don’t care who you are or that anyone you quoted said some malarkeys about how this and that doesn’t or doesn’t exist, what exists is the FACTS that SIIers have found a way to COPE.

You made it through another day alove.

And at the end of the day that’s all that matters.


...taps...

Originally posted by silo13
Sonya, as for your *get creative with it* comment, don't be flip, it doesn’t suit you.
SII behavior has nothing to do with scarification and to confuse either or is ignorance.

I wasn’t being flippant. As far as it being “ignorant” what are you basing that on? Your research into scarification? Here is an interesting thread in which people discuss the reasons for scarification, and more than a couple said they used to cut themselves; they now choose to have it professionally done or do it themselves in a more artistic manner. Are those people ignorant too? They seem to know an awful lot about self-inflicted wounds, but of course if they don’t agree with you then they must be ignorant.

scarification.tribe.net...

Now I realize most distraunt 15 year olds probably don’t think about the random hack and slash cuts that may cause lifetime scars. But truth is many people WILL be disturbed by random self-inflicted scars, and the practice could put them in a psyche ward. Since many seem to plan their self-inflicted cutting ahead of time it would make sense to get creative (realizing it would probably not compare to a professional) simply so if they ended up “discovered” they would have a good story.

During the final part of my marriage, my ex started doing this to herself, including cutting the F word into her thigh. I consulted a psychologist about this behavior and he said she needs treatment in order to get past this disorder.

As far as I know she hasn't gotten any treatment, I don't know if she still cuts herself, but it does worry me to death because she has custody of our son.

[edit on 10/27/2008 by whatukno]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Trying to stop them is the worst thing you can do. That will make them think that the person that's supposed to love them and accept them doesn't, and will make them feel worse.

This part made me cry.

It's amazing how people think that they can just get pissed off, yell, and tell someone not to cut anymore... And it will cure everyone's problems. Giving disgusted looks and telling someone to stop isn't going to help them through anything. It will just make them struggle with keeping more pain welled up inside, by keeping more to themselves.

It's comforting that even some who do not do this, understand it. I tend to think that each lasting scar is a memory. All of life is a learning experience. Human emotions are just too complicated to understand why anyone does anything. It's probably not wise to judge others' actions.
This can go for anything else in the world though...
Why do people abort their unborn? Or have a huge stockpile of weapons and ammunition??
Not your place to judge. People are so caught up in the thought that they should be able to tell others how to live their lives. It makes me sick.


EDITED to make more sense of a sentence.



[edit on 27-10-2008 by LostNemesis]

reply to post by Sonya610


Sonya, thanks for the link.

I see a huge difference between people who are *into cutting* (talk about it, blog about it, share pictures, share it between lovers) and a Self Inflicted Injury Person.

The posts I read in that link glorified pain, glorified scarification using ritualistic ways (some including sex), and *cuttings* performed on them by others.

None of these fall into the category of Self Inflicted Injury (in my opinion) but more important in the opinion of health professionals who state Self Inflicted Injury is not for ritual, religion, self glorification (sharing between friends like a dare - who can take the most pain etc), nor for body altering or beautification.

Self Inflicted Injury is the *at that moment* cure for overloaded stress levels. I don't see this having anything to do with planning on going out next weekend to get *scarred* or (like one girls said) making a date with your boyfriend to go to a nice intimate place to let him cut you with his scalpel cause he’s really good at it. (UGH!)

Self Inflicted Injury isn’t for fun, for sharing with your friends on line (or off), or to be confused with people who want long-lasting beautiful designs left on their bodies by professionals.
I know SIIers who’d run in fear at the thought of letting someone else touch them with a scalpel or brand - it would be unthinkable!
Believe it or not it isn't uncommon for SI'ers to be very squeamish at the sight of blood, when it wasn't blood drawn by themselves. Just as many or more are terrified of needles. It's about control, and about *at the moment (stress) pain relief*, not the glorifying of pain.

While these people might *enjoy* the pain - (the ones I read about in your link) it isn’t the same as someone - who - in a moment of intolerable stress, insurmountable emotional pain and desperation, and with no other learned way of dealing with that stress, turns to *hurting* themselves at that very moment in order to feel better and become calmer and more in control.

I’m sure there are some who used to be SI'ers and (thank goodness) because of talking about it with their friends, (having the behavior become more socially acceptable between peers), they’ve *morphed* from being a S.Ier into a Body Modifier.
This is great news actually.
Maybe it’s a way for some people to get *out* of the SII behavior.
I don’t like the continued cutting and scaring - nor do I like using this as a play thing amongst friends and lovers - but - I’ll be the last one to judge them

Thanks for the link - interesting stuff that.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the many web-sites that are used by those with eating disorders and very likely those who suffer with Self Injury? From my experience, both disorders seem very ritualistic and sufferers often seek each other out. Anorexics and bulimics often encourage the dysfunction in their peers.

Astyanax, I really liked your response to this thread. I don't mean for my comments on this topic to trivialize the suffering of others but sometimes things are just as they seem and there is no convoluted explanation.

[edit on 27/10/2008 by kosmicjack]

Originally posted by kosmicjack
Does anyone have any thoughts on the many web-sites that are used by those with eating disorders and very likely those who suffer with Self Injury? From my experience, both disorders seem very ritualistic and sufferers often seek each other out. Anorexics and bulimics often encourage the dysfunction in their peers.
[edit on 27/10/2008 by kosmicjack]

I think it ties in to what we were saying earlier, where there are two types of ED and SI: Those who do it for release, and those who do it for the attention or, I think the the case of eating disorders, think that it is trendy or competative.

I was too ashamed to ever seek out help or even confide in my problem, and that is an attitude I've heard from many sufferers, after the fact. i would never have considered going to one of those web sites becase !) I did not consider it art 2) I did not want to continue 3)At the tiem I didn't want anyone else to know that I was doing it, even anonymously.

I think as a general outgrowth of our youthful culture becoming very narcisistic, there are many young people who have turned to self-harm as a means of attention and manipulation rather than as a way of internalizing their problems. I think they perceive it as dangerous, but without any lasting consequences. I've noticed some of them making it into a sort of competition between friends, or at least a co-dependant situation.

I am dealing with this with my younger sister now (still ayoung teenager). She has a disorder that I won't specify exactly, which I truly beleive is not "real" in the sense of an outgrowth of trauma or stress, but contrived for attention. It's very frustrating to watch in action; my parents know fully what is going on but have done nothing to stop it, regardless of the fact that it is dangerous behavior and leads her to lie, steal, and sneak out in perpetuation of the problem.

Originally posted by silo13
I’m sure there are some who used to be SI'ers and (thank goodness) because of talking about it with their friends, (having the behavior become more socially acceptable between peers), they’ve *morphed* from being a S.Ier into a Body Modifier.
This is great news actually.
Maybe it’s a way for some people to get *out* of the SII behavior.
Thanks for the link - interesting stuff that.

Well I think the bottom line for most that cut for stress, and many that cut in a ritualistic form is that THEY LIKE IT in some way. That seems to be the one thing that none of the articles really address. There are people that truly do experience some forms of pain as pleasurable in some regard.

How many recovered cutters still miss it on some level? If there is still temptation then obviously they still like. And I don't think it is really all that different when it turns into a bdsm related lifestyle, I would bet the thrill is still much the same it is just channeled into a different format.

And yes I think self-acceptance is a major part of it, some people got older and realized it was acceptable in some circles, plus they were probably less unstable compared to an adolscent. Even most adolescents aren't just cutting on the "spur of the moment", if they get stressed at school or fight with their parents they probably can't always run into the bathroom at that very second, they wait until the "time is right".

I think the main reason it is seen as such a huge problem is because it typically manifests in teenagers. No one wants to see kids carve themselves up and live with the damage all their lives. If it were only manifesting in adults it would probably not be seen as such a big deal in this day and age, especially because *most* adults would go about it in a more methodical manner (obviously not all adults, not like the guys x-wife who carved obscenities into her thigh, that is over the top).

Wanting to do it again has nothing to do with "liking" it in many people. It's an addiction. It's the same thing that happens when you do drugs. You get an endorphin rush that your body comes to like. If you're not careful then you get addicted to it. It's just as hard to beat as any other addiction. Until this past summer when my SO and I got together, there were nights when things were crashing in on me when I would sit on the couch with a box of razor blades sitting on the coffee table, fighting against cutting myself again with everything I had, because I was starting to feel dead again. I wanted the rush of knowing that I was alive again, and that endoriphin rush. I certainly didn't want to do it again because I liked it. I was addicted to it.

Originally posted by asmeone2
I am dealing with this with my younger sister now (still ayoung teenager). She has a disorder that I won't specify exactly, which I truly beleive is not "real" in the sense of an outgrowth of trauma or stress, but contrived for attention.

This is similar to what I have witnessed with several young women who have worked with and confided in me. The pressure from other girls is astounding. Society puts so much emphasis on image, especially in my field, which is fashion. Literally, many young people - consciously or subconsciously - view themselves as a "brand" to be marketed to the world. I guess that's no big surprise in such an image driven society. Perception is everything.

Originally posted by asmeone2
It's very frustrating to watch in action; my parents know fully what is going on but have done nothing to stop it, regardless of the fact that it is dangerous behavior...

This has been my experience as well - as long as outward appearances are acceptable, many spouses and parents are reluctant to confront the behavior. However, I tend to think this can be interpreted by the individual involved as not caring. Again, image being more important than reality - which perpetuates the condition even further.





[edit on 27/10/2008 by kosmicjack]

This has been my experience as well - as long as outward appearances are acceptable, many spouses and parents are reluctant to confront the behavior. However, I tend to think this can be interpreted by the individual involved as not caring. Again, image being more important than reality - which perpetuates the condition even further.

I have talked to them about that in depth, but beyond that, it's not my place to interfere.

I think for many parents, having that troubled kid is as much of an cry for attention as is the kid's troubled behaviour.

I've never actually gotten it diagnosed, because for the most part it doesn't impact my life too negatively, but my own SI is scab picking, and from what I've read, perhaps an offshoot or presentation of mild OCD. I do get the endorphin rush when the blood starts to flow, but I also have to scratch off the scabs that keep my legs from looking normal. (Which, of course, keeps the wounds from healing and creates a vicious cycle.) I can't even remember the last time I wore shorts comfortably, and the few times I go swimming, I use private pools so as not to repulse strangers... I've been doing this fairly constantly for more than 30 years.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Wanting to do it again has nothing to do with "liking" it in many people.

Thank you for your post.
There's nothing like hearing the truth from not only someone who knows the truth, but lives it, to help those who just don't get it, who don't understand.
Your willingness to share yourself with the board and your voice being heard for all the SII people out there is a really beautiful thing for you to do.

Thank you x 1000000
silo

reply to post by JoshNorton

Dermatillomania - A form of obsessive compulsive disorder where a person compulsively picks at their own skin. Sufferers can feel the pain they inflict on themselves but the feelings of gratification and stress relief prevent them from stopping. The severity and extent of damage to the skin is variable. Stress and anxiety can trigger the compulsive skin picking.

Here's a link you might want to visit.
link

As you can see from the quote above, skin picking also affords the release of endorphins and the calming effect like in Self Inflicted Injury behavior.
The link I posted seems pretty helpful and if not this link I would think once you read about dermatillomania you'll be able to find other links if you want from there.



...hope...

reply to post by silo13

I think you misunderstood more than just a sentence of my post, Silo.

Still, the one you said you had trouble with means simply that some self-mutilators and bulimics might be relieved to learn that there is really no deep, terrifying hidden trauma that they have to overcome before they can cure themselves of their condition. Relieved, that is, to learn that the disorder that so cripples them can be dealt with on the level of the disorder itself, without having to waste years and years trying to unearth some nonexistent 'cause' of it.

But not all self-mutilators and bulimics will be relieved.

There will always be the ones so wrapped up in their condition that they cannot bear the prospect of life without it. They have identified themselves with their illness, and a cure is the last thing they want.

For them, the best we can hope for is that they grow up - and out of their sad condition. Most, I believe, eventually do.