Native Americans, Celts and Ancient Transatlantic Travel

Originally posted by dampnickersIt seems that you are forgetting the first tennet of this site... deny ignorance.

You may do just that by doing some research, instead of blindly denying what I have said.

Or are you just an ignoramous, and not a person that denied ignorance?

I simply require proof. If you are going to change the basis of thought on an issue...if you wish to add to human knowledge... there is no room for flexability. You have to be right. I have spent 23 years in an academic environment. I know lots of academics. I know their passion.

A blanket condemnation of professors is not a great way to establish your own credability.

You might call me an ignoramous, but in the end there's a lot less likelyhood that I'll end up looking like a goof. I work on the fringes...and my work is respected, but if I hear hoofbeats, I think horses.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

but I'm sure we're talking common roots, not a trans-atlantic diffusion. Certainly not as late as 800.

Please elaborate.

Originally posted by dampnickers


Racism is a term invented by Karl Marx as a way of destroying political oponents, and he used it to great effect. So, you are either a communist, or just lacking in basic knowledge.

Please read more carefully. I wasnt applying the term "racist" but saying how other people applied the word in a false context.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Hey Sky. This is a great thread!

I did some digging tonight and I think I stumbled onto something really huge. It is somewhat on a tanget with the Basque people. I was wondering if I should post it here or start a new thread. You already have 10 Flags for this Thread and it would be great to build on this one.

Ever heard of Sugaar and Mari?

These deities are the link between the Native Americans and the Basque people.

I have pictures and links to show. This is real exciting!

Lostinspace: This thread is about transatlantic contacts and native americans, so I wouldnt mind collaborating with others on this thread. Its not "my" thread, its ours.

Bring it on!

Im curious because Ive never heard of that.

www.book-of-thoth.com...

In ancient Phoenician maps, Merika was the land to the west, and I feel that this is where the name America originates. Thousands of years ago, people in the middle east knew of America.

Skyfloating:

You come up with some interesting threads! I love this one about language.

Let me ask you this. Do you know how similar are the NA/Celtic language in terms of subject/object/verb arrangement?

In the method of verb conjugation?

In the pronoun and verb cases (that is, past, present, future, or formal/informal/vulgar)

Do the languages display a similar system of giving object gender?

(Since you did the research I'll assume you're educated enough that you don't need example, but let me know if you do.)

Coincidences of word meaning can happen, but if your research indicates a high correlation of similar words, and a similar structure of the language, then you're really on to something.

I look forward to hearing more of this!

[edit on 23-10-2008 by asmeone2]

Originally posted by Irish Matador
Being Irish I had to learn Gaelic or Gaeilge. I know live in Spain and it has certain similarities to Basque. Not that we would understand it but some words are definatley similar.

Just my .02 worth!!!

My family came over from Spain in the 1600s from the Asturias region and we have celtic heritage waaaaaayyyyy back. My wife is from Tennessee and looks so Irish, I wonder if my genetic code was screaming to me to get back to the family. weird huh? Spanish and Irish have a truck load in common chief among them is the love of a good beer and a pleasing woman!
Hook Em Horns!

reply to post by Skyfloating


The pre-Christian mythology of the Basque is where I make a connection to the Native Americans.
en.wikipedia.org...

Every Friday Sugaar and Mari, his consort, meet together in a cave on top of a mountain to create storms. Sugaar is known to be both a flying fire ball, symbolized with an "x" and also a serpent with two horns.

There is a place in Mexico that has this exact bas-relief carved in a cave.

The place is known as Chalcatzingo, an Olmec middle preclassic site.
en.wikipedia.org...

Monument 1, El Ray depicts the famous middle preclassic woman ruler of Chalcatzingo.


weber.ucsd.edu...
Notice Sugaar is the fireball that sits on top of the cave where Mari resides. There are also three rain clouds forming in the upper portion of the image. When Mari and Sugaar (Majue) travelled together hail would fall.

studentweb.tulane.edu...

instructional1.calstatela.edu...
\
instructional1.calstatela.edu...

Here is Sugaar in the form of a two horned serpent. Monument 5 at Chalcatzingo.

Notice the “X” pattern on his body.
studentweb.tulane.edu...



This is a 1000 year old Italian Visconti (Biscione) family emblem.
en.wikipedia.org...

Here's a link to show the Celt-Basque connection
en.wikipedia.org...








[edit on 24-10-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 24-10-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 24-10-2008 by lostinspace]

The evidence says that colonies of the Iberic Celts were trading Michigan copper and new world furs to the Romans. The Romans asked where thay came from and were told Brittania. The Celts were careful of the resources thay controlled. They had once populated all of Europe [the Greeks called them the Keltoi] before the Romans drove them out and left them alone only when they had retreated to the British isles.

If this last is from Fell, he doesn't know what he's talking about. The Celts were never driven out of europe, they were conquered or otherwise assimilated. Check any detailed history of the Celts.

When the Romans conquered a piece of Britannia, they found the tin mines but not the copper or the furs.

That's interesting, considering This

They must not have looked too hard for the furs either, given that of the 8 or so principal native British fur species I can think of, one went extinct in the medievel period, two not until the 16th and 18th centuries, and most of the rest are still going strong.

-Oniomancer

Cool speculation but I do not believe it.

On the NorthEast coasts of north America lived a matriarchal society known as the Mic Mak. hmmmm....

Coincidentally, St Brendan sailed from Ireland, where everyone was predominately named 'Mc' or 'Mac' and whose culture was traditionally heavily influenced by Matriarchal hierarchies.

So.... Saint Brendan had sailed from a country of Mc's and Mac's, only to find another matriarchal culture who called themselves the Mic Mak, and who lived in an ecosystem almost identical to the one he had just left.

The similarities are too many and too significant for this to be coincidence. There must have been contact between the two cultures. Perhaps even a less distant relation between the two cultures exists that we have not properly investigated.

I think Skyfloating is onto something with this one. Kudos; Skyfloating.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
On the NorthEast coasts of north America lived a matriarchal society known as the Mic Mak. hmmmm....

Coincidentally, St Brendan sailed from Ireland, where everyone was predominately named 'Mc' or 'Mac' and whose culture was traditionally heavily influenced by Matriarchal hierarchies.

So.... Saint Brendan had sailed from a country of Mc's and Mac's, only to find another matriarchal culture who called themselves the Mic Mak, and who lived in an ecosystem almost identical to the one he had just left.

It's seems strange to me to talk of matriarchal cultures and 'Mc' and 'Mac' in the same sentence. It's fairly common knowledge that the Mc/Mac prefix means 'grandson of'. How entrenched is a matriarchal society that has a surname based on tracing the male line?

reply to post by Merriman Weir


*Do you not understand that a large percentage of the Irish population has a surname ending in Mc or Mac?

"It's fairly common knowledge that the Mc/Mac prefix means 'grandson of"

No... that isn't common knowledge.

In fact, it is not relevant to the discussion in any way whatsoever - However,the large percentage Irish with the prefix IS relevant.

One might say much of Ireland is peopled by Mc's and Mac's without ever knowing any Irish genealogical factoids.

*I'm sorry I pointed it out. Don't worry, no need to reply

[edit on 24-10-2008 by TruthTellist]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

*Do you not understand that a large percentage of the Irish population has a surname ending in Mc or Mac?

"It's fairly common knowledge that the Mc/Mac prefix means 'grandson of"

No... that isn't common knowledge.

I thought it was. I've heard it mentioned so many, many, many, many, many times in the past that I wasn't aware that I was sitting on such an obscure nugget of knowledge. I'd be very surprised if anyone in Ireland actually had one of these surnames and didn't actually know this. I'd be surprised if someone claiming Irish American heritage didn't know this either.

In fact, it is not relevant to the discussion in any way whatsoever - However,the large percentage Irish with the prefix IS relevant.

One might say much of Ireland is peopled by Mc's and Mac's without ever knowing any Irish genealogical factoids.

Thanks for the irrelevancy.

You're welcome! However, I'm not sure it's entirely irrelevant at all if you're trying to make a point about Ireland having a 'traditional' matriarchal culture in the distant past. Particularly if you're making a particular issue about a type of surnames and using St Bernard in your example. What in the name of Lord Krondar would St Bernard know of a matriarchal culture? Even St Ita, his tutor, was trapped within the machinery of an overwhelmingly male-dominated religious society.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

Edited to add: I'm on my ignore list for this? Wow, that's pretty touchy.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

reply to post by lostinspace


Thats good news for me since I have a File/Archive on my computer detailing the Basque transatlantic connections (in linguistics, customs, legends and even shared games and sports with the native americans, aztecs, mayans)...but I did not have this piece of data yet.

Did YOU discover this? If so, its going to feature in alternative-history/archaeology literature sooner or later.


Thats in-your-face evidence. Keep it coming.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
www.book-of-thoth.com...

In ancient Phoenician maps, Merika was the land to the west, and I feel that this is where the name America originates. Thousands of years ago, people in the middle east knew of America.

Thats interesting. I once heard about this while attending a masonic lecture. The guy lecturing seriously believed in this and offered a bit more than only the Scottish connection...unfortunately I forget what exactly.

reply to post by TruthTellist


MicMac, eh? Yet another piece in the increasingly long list of so-called "coincidences". If our teachers in school would point stuff like this out to spark our curiosity, we might actually have enjoyed school.

reply to post by Skyfloating


The name Mi'kmaq derives from the term nikmaq, a word in the Native Language which means, "My kin friends", or, in the sense of it's use as a greeting in the 1600's, "My Brothers".

Just another coincidence...

reply to post by TruthTellist

On the NorthEast coasts of north America lived a matriarchal society known as the Mic Mak. hmmmm....

-

So.... Saint Brendan had sailed from a country of Mc's and Mac's, only to find another matriarchal culture who called themselves the Mic Mak, and who lived in an ecosystem almost identical to the one he had just left.

-

The similarities are too many and too significant for this to be coincidence.

The Micmac or Mi'kmaq call themselves the Lnu’k.

Micmac is probably derived from the Mi'kMaq word for 'ally', this name was used during the fur trade in dealing with the French.