This is for all the 'ufo believers' must read.

reply to post by Camilo1


Camilo1 - thanks for the reply.

This thread was mainly started as a response to all the "frustration" certain believers have been venting out on the board lately. If you are secure in your beliefs and that works for you then fair enough - more power to ya.

But the believers that have been getting increasingly aggravated with the skepticism - I don't think they are secure in their beliefs, otherwise they wouldn't get so worked up by the other side. I see their frustration as a sign that yes - they still "want to believe" and they are desperately looking to others for approval of those beliefs.

My point is that if they learned to get over this, and understood how to work with the "real" skeptics (what I mean by that is the more liberal, open-minded ones - i.e. the ones that matter, not the closed-off shut-ins), then we'd all be that much better for it.

I mean - what's the ultimate common goal here: to uncover the truth.

I think the only way we're ever going to arrive at that goal is by organizing ourselves and bringing more mainstream credibility to the field of UFOlogy. Currently it's like all we're doing is accomplishing the complete opposite of that.

I don't think you could say it any better either - my favorite part is this though:

Originally posted by Heike
How about picking a few specific cases and "investigating" them, or throwing together the bits and pieces of knowledge that each of us has and seeing if we can come up with a "big picture" that is coherent and makes sense?

That's exactly why I keep picking on Youtube videos, because they're never going to completely convince the world something strange is definitely going on. We should focus our energy elsewhere:

If we were to all make a concerted emphasis on the best cases, working in unison to establish the facts from the embellished half-truths and overactive imaginations, we would have something.

Furthermore, we might not only put the pieces together ourselves, but at the very least eliminate a lot of the misinformation and hoaxes which are both constantly perpetuated by hardcore believers and skeptics alike. In doing that we could also push this clearer, consensus opinion out of the fringes and into the mainstream - where members of the scientific community and the general public would be forced to take a deeper look.

Sounds like a much better plan than wasting all our time arguing over pixelated blobs that never change anything.

Hi all; since I can't sleep I thought I'd jump in; hope that's ok.

- I don't "believe" in UFOs similar to the way I don't "believe" in gravity...or that the world is round. - These are all facts to me and therefore don't require an element of faith, which is implied with the statement "I believe...". UFO stands for unidentified flying object. I have seen firsthand several unidentified flying objects.

- The characteristics of these UFOs (on all 3 occasions) in flight seemed to me to indicate that they were craft of some sort under intelligent control and in 2 of those instances outperformed any aircraft that the general public is aware of in production on Earth. Now, I always thought that these were probably alien spacecraft of some kind, but I was open to the possibility that they might just be secret aircraft invented right here on Earth. They are definitely craft of some kind. - 2 of the ones I have seen were discernible craft; the other was a ball of light which I suppose could be argued was not a craft, at least not as we understand one.

- I have heard and read and watched so many things about this issue over the years...I've actually become quite OCD about it. Personally, there are 2 things that cemented my opinion that these are extraterrestrial visitors in addition to (probably reverse-engineered) secret Earth-based projects. The first is the 2001 Disclosure Project press conference at the national press club in DC. - I highly recommend that skeptics watch that conference and the 4 hour witness testimony that is related to it (both available free on google video) before they continue being skeptics on this issue. The second thing was when I saw Fife Symington (former Governor of Arizona) admit on CNN (10 years later) that during the Phoenix Lights episode in 1997 what he actually saw was a mile+ wide spacecraft gliding over the city that made no noise whatsoever. Google Phoenix Lights if you know nothing about it. That's it; case closed easily with those 2 things I just mentioned. After watching and researching only those 2 things (and there are plenty more) - if you are still a skeptic after that, then in my opinion you are either retarded, or you have some reason why you are determined to stick your head in the sand. - I suppose it's also possible you could work for an "alphabet-soup" agency or USAP of some kind.

This issue is not even a debate anymore for anyone who bothers to do any serious research, especially since the internet has come along. This is an important issue for specific reasons having to do with energy and the existing geopolitical power structure. They are here; this is reality, and they probably have been for a very long time. This issue has also been (since the late 40s) the best example of a successful disinformation campaign I can think of. - Astonishingly well played by the various branches of US Gov that control this issue as well as the private parties that are into this issue.

reply to post by Snowcrash


All the research does is prove one thing...there are craft out there that are unknown not that there is alien life. I have watched the disclosure project..it is soley based on heresay and stories.....and is pure specualtion as to what they are. There are no no concrete facts to the alien theory just people making assumptions. To believe something without concrete proof is foolish. As for the pheonix lights...i have seen the footage....not sure what to make of it....could be a craft of some type or multiple crafts in formation or just be flares, again we are left to make up our minds. I can not say either way to what it is....so I can not make a declaration without proof to back my theory up. Making declarations with out hardcore proof to back it up is retarded.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

I hate the idea that I could be classed as a believer. Believers sound stupid, as if they're a few pennies short of a pound. (beam me up Scotty) Skeptics sound stubborn but a tad smarter. Can someone think up some better labels please?

When it comes to UFOs, it's not that I'm a believer, it's that I KNOW. The proof is in the pudding as they say, and I've had the pudding. So from my stance the skeptics are ignorant of something I know to be real. My husband was a skeptic, (I KNEW long before he did) but he knows now too.

As for believing, I did think that october 14th horspoop thing WAS horsepoop. I'm very selective about what I 'believe in'. And I don't follow everything to do with UFOs with 'unwavering faith' either.

I don't use ATS to spout my beliefs. I come here because I want to find something interesting to read, and maybe find some more information about what i KNOW exists but know very little about. Also to have a laugh and debate the horsepoop.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by wigit]

reply to post by wigit


What an intelligent, balanced post
You see it, the truth could be in our hands: i HATE it whenever some people sees conspiracies everywhere. Today i woke up and all the main newspapers put in their FRONTPAGE an article regarding the UK government releasing the UFO files: hey, including "Corriere della sera", the most important one in Italy. I could NOT spot any sarcasm in the article, it's what you would call a STEP, a serious one. No more than two years ago, every "journalist" would have laughed at such a news". The time is changing my friend, maybe some good news is to be revealed to us

reply to post by wigit


Could you explain HOW YOU KNOW. Because as far as I know there is nothing out there that is considered the one true, have no doubts, make me a believer evidence. Just saying YOU KNOW does not make it fact...just to let you know. You sound intelligent so you must be able to tell us how it is you know the one thing that most of us do not. Or are you basing your beliefs on the available evidence which is weak at best.

reply to post by riggs2099


I can tell you how I *know*, but you won't believe me so what's the point?

My ex-husband personally saw a partially burnt and severed hand which was being stored in preservative at a US military facility. The hand was not human.

That's how I KNOW.

Now you will ask for proof and evidence and backup and yada yada and I don't have any, so it will be dismissed by you.

But that's how *I* know.

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by wigit

 

Could you explain HOW YOU KNOW. Because as far as I know there is nothing out there that is considered the one true, have no doubts, make me a believer evidence. Just saying YOU KNOW does not make it fact...just to let you know. You sound intelligent so you must be able to tell us how it is you know the one thing that most of us do not. Or are you basing your beliefs on the available evidence which is weak at best.

What question are you asking... whether she believes UFO's exist? or whether she believes they are piloted by aliens on other planets.

The undeniable proof is that UFO's exist.

As to whether they are aliens.... there may not be solid "proof" as a skeptic would want but if you were to make an educated logical decision you would come to the conclusion they are from other planets..... purely based on the evidence we have so far. To say it's not is to call every single person that has ever seen an alien a liar..... all abductees under hypnosis are making it up or being fed information.

What I find a little staggering is that people can't look at the facts we do have and make a logical conclusion...... and that is that the US Govt... the British Govt... the Italians.. French.. Russians.... ALL of them have admitted to investigating the UFO phenomenen..... and none of them know who it is piloting the UFOs. So either a country like Iran happens to have a technology for the last 100 years that nobody knows anything about and has been pranking these countries with their "UFO's" or it's none of the countries on Earth. You figure it out.

I don't need an alien to come out and shake my hand before I can use common sense and see that everything points to all of the countries of the world having no idea who this advanced technology that has been in our skies for the last 100 years belongs to.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Total Package]

reply to post by Total Package


So your willing to believe that the government is covering ufo's up and think they are lying about what they know about alien/ufo's but will believe them when they say they say they are not thiers. You have to pick a side you can't believe one thing about what they say and then not believe them when it doesn't go with your belief. your picking and choosing...and your only picking the side that helps your belief system. There is nothing and I mean nothing that says aliens are visiting us..not one shred of valid evidence. As for the so-called abducties I believe they are either mentally unstable, making it up, having vivid dreams ir the more logical one that they are suffering from a type of sleep paralysis. How else can you explain that they have not left any evidence behind not even trace evidence, if you say because they are too careful then how do you explain the supposed crashes that occur. I believe there are ufos(uniidentified not aliencraft) because i have seen them. I believe the government is using the ufo phenomenon to cover up thier secret craft and have not forward because they have perfected it the technology yet. As stated many times by many of us..the evidence only points to the fact that something is in our skies not what but something. It is very illogical to make statements like they are here without any solid proof to back up your claims. We would love nothing better than to be proven wrong but so far it hasn't happened. When there can be alternative explainations to the sightings then it can not be shown to be fact that they are here. The aliens are here is just one theory and thats what you people do not understand. It is only theory and speculation to what they are.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by Total Package

 

So your willing to believe that the government is covering ufo's up and think they are lying about what they know about alien/ufo's but will believe them when they say they say they are not thiers. You have to pick a side you can't believe one thing about what they say and then not believe them when it doesn't go with your belief. your picking and choosing...and your only picking the side that helps your belief system. There is nothing and I mean nothing that says aliens are visiting us..not one shred of valid evidence. As for the so-called abducties I believe they are either mentally unstable, making it up, having vivid dreams ir the more logical one that they are suffering from a type of sleep paralysis. How else can you explain that they have not left any evidence behind not even trace evidence, if you say because they are too careful then how do you explain the supposed crashes that occur. I believe there are ufos(uniidentified not aliencraft) because i have seen them. I believe the government is using the ufo phenomenon to cover up thier secret craft and have not forward because they have perfected it the technology yet.

I think you need to do a little research on how long UFO's have been sighted in our skies.... long before your mob were trying to put a kite into the sky.

You seriously cannot believe the US Govt was holding onto and using UFO technology in the 1800's.... whilst the Wright Brothers were trying to get a plane off the ground do you? You think the US went to world wars with primitive technology.... and foot soldiers and navy boats.... whilst they were hiding UFO's capable of flying faster than anything we have to this day???

And they reckon the "believers" are the ones that lack common sense

reply to post by Total Package


I never said anything about back then... and if you read the stories from back then you will see that the ufo sightings did not claim to have extreme technoogy like the ones today. They were described as looking like craft that had propellors and such. So i guees the aliens have slowly advanced here on earth..thye went from having propellors..etc..to more exotic types. The stories changed as the technology changed on earth...that doesn't tell you anything? And as fpr the sightings of ufo's back then..you had people describing phenomenon that could easily be explained by meteorites, ball lightning..etc. Thses people had no idea what they were seeing,,most were unedcucated people who still believed that witches were real..same can be said for the ancients. The problem with cavemen, romans, greeks ..etc art is that people will see what they want in them. I will be off until later...so I may not be able to answer your rebuttle right away.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

Originally posted by riggs2099
The stories changed as the technology changed on earth...that doesn't tell you anything?

It suggests to me that, whatever they are or wherever they're from, they may have the technology (holographics? advanced camoflauge?) to appear as whatever they want to appear as in order to attempt to disguise themselves.

Or it may simply indicate that human beings interpret what they see according to what they can understand and/or have some familiarity with.

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by Total Package

 

I never said anything about back then..

. and if you read the stories from back then you will see that the ufo sightings did not claim to have extreme technoogy like the ones today. They were described as looking like craft that had propellors and such. So i guees the aliens have slowly advanced here on earth..thye went from having propellors..etc..to more exotic types. The stories changed as the technology changed on earth...that doesn't tell you anything? And as fpr the sightings of ufo's back then..you had people describing phenomenon that could easily be explained by meteorites, ball lightning..etc. Thses people had no idea what they were seeing,,most were unedcucated people who still believed that witches were real..same can be said for the ancients. The problem with cavemen, romans, greeks ..etc art is that people will see what they want in them. I will be off until later...so I may not be able to answer your rebuttle right away.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

"The problem with cavemen, romans, greeks ..etc art is that people will see what they want in them."

LOL you are right... not only was this particular UFO from the year 1350.... not a propellor to be seen. I'm really not sure how people can be "seeing what they want to" in something like this.



I also saw a thread the other day about the oldest UFO photos from back in the 1800's..... no propellors there either.

oops



[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

reply to post by Total Package
you are seeing what youn want thats all..how do we know the artisit just did not have very creative imagination?
As for early ufo pic...it was mid 1900's not early 1800's and it was afake.
orginal photo that is supposed to be the earliest known photo


and the photo it was taken from and superimposed onto the top one


here is the story from www.santafeghostandhistorytours.com...
This photos is claimed to be from TIENSTEN CHINA 1942 or TIENJIN, JAPAN 1911. Note the wide avenue and no cars, the people pointing or looking skyward. China had been at war with Japan since 1931, and wracked with civil war. It is possible that there would be no cars on a major street in a Chinese city of that era. As for JAPAN, 1911, it is possible a street in 1911, in the Orient would not have any cars. Who knows where this photo was taken? With the Rikshaws, it looks like China to me. Then again, is this a superimposed photo. Are the people looking up at a World War II bomber or fighter plane that is in trouble? A photo wizard put the UFO in place of the plane? Or is it legit? This UFO picture was found out to be later a FAKE. With fishing line a Flying Saucer model was swayed against the sky.


Image site only makes that big...but there are bigger pic ion the link to the story.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by riggs2099]

I'd love to have undeniable proof of extraterrestrials visiting us. I would, really.
So far, there is no concrete evidence. There's a ton of compelling and very credible evidence, but nothing concrete. Too bad.

This is where I have a problem. Why not? If it's not a 'flying saucer', what is it? Tell me. I'm a big boy, I can handle the truth.

This is why I mentioned earlier that skeptics tend towards the "Nuh-uh" argument rather than any constructive dialogue. I just want someone to tell me what these things are. Simple enough?

"It's a UFO"
"Nuh-Uh"
"What is it, then"
"Not a UFO"

Tsk.

Why all this cloak and dagger and secret reports? What's being hidden?

If it's a weather balloon - give me concrete evidence
If it's swamp gas - give me concrete evidence
If it's weather phenomena - give me concrete evidence
If it's an alien from Alpha Centauri - give me concrete evidence

Until then, I'll keep an open mind and be careful not to poo-poo anyone's ideas. Who knows? They may turn out correct.

Disinformation, and stories that are full of holes seem to abound (someone cannot be happy that the internet community are so good at finding the errors in the stories), but why? If they don't know, that's fine too. The evidence appears to be that there's more to the story. I just want that... If it's all a hoax, great. I'll go back to bed.

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by wigit

 

Could you explain HOW YOU KNOW. You sound intelligent so you must be able to tell us how it is you know the one thing that most of us do not. Or are you basing your beliefs on the available evidence which is weak at best.

Ummm................. I know ufo's are really there because I've seen them!

Best one was a clear as a bell, across the road, sunny day sighting of a craft that was silent, built itself in the air, changed shape, had flashing light, could have hit it with a rock distance from me. And I had a skeptical witness with me too, my partner.

I took photos after my initial shock. A neighbour ran out his house when he saw me running across the road with the camera. He saw it too, as a dot high up in the sky by that time. He thought it was a metallic balloon that some kid had let go. It wasn't. Shame to say the camera was crap, the object had moved farther away from me, blah, blah, blah.

I can't prove to you what was REALLY there that day, but you got to understand, you can't tell me I didn't see that thing. The reality of UFOs as genuine, exotic behaving, solid weirdness in the skies was proven to me.

I dunno who, or what, or IF, there was a driver of that machine-looking thing either. But ufo's are real and definitely worth in-depth study (if you have an interest). If not, watch footie, or play golf, or do whatever it is that interests you. I like to think, I like adventure, mythology, science, most of all discovery. Ufology is an exciting passtime in my opinion. A lot to be discovered there.

I've met a lot of people with a similar passion for the subject. One of my old friends told me she's really an alien. Don't tell her, but I think THAT is horsepoop.

One of the major problems is the UFO believers. We tend to believe all the claims out there, and when any negative information about the claimant or claim is made, we attack the skeptics.
We are afraid to say that there are hoaxes and other down to earth explanations as it may apply to all the cases out there. If a skeptic brings up a small point, instead of looking at such point, it is shot down.

Case in point is the Betty and Barney Hill case. Some skeptics bring up the possibility that Barney got his description of the aliens from an episode of "Outer Limits". Mr Hill worked the grave yard shift, so he could of watched the show before starting his two hour drive (grave yard shift usually starts at 11pm). While many researchers deny he ever watched the show, it is possible he may have seen an episode. There is know way of really knowing if he did or did not. (The aliens look different than the episode in question "The Bellero Shield".)
We need to realize that most of the cases will have a down to earth explanation and there are many hoaxers out there. The good cases out there have enough evidence and reliable witnesses to stand on their own. It doesn't help that there is a new UFO video on Youtube, which is more than likely to be a hoax or natural phenomena.

Again, we as UFO believers need to ask tougher questions, and go out and document the witnesses and possible physical evidence that is out there.

reply to post by wigit


I was questioning how you know they alien craft not that ufo's exist. Maybe I misread your original post but I thought you were speaking about these things are being piloted by aliens.