This is for all the 'ufo believers' must read.

With all the fallout from the October 14th horsepoop I've noticed a lot of tension on this board lately.

The skeptics are really fed up with all the unapologetic blind belief going on and in turn all the believers are really annoyed with all the skeptics' ...um...well - skepticism.



Everybody's at each other's throats.

So first off - how 'bout we all calm down a bit OK?

...
Cool.


Now... take a minute and think about why you're here on this forum in the first place.

You're probably here because you "want to believe" right?

Do you think every skeptic is here just to tear you down for that?

Maybe some no-life jerk ones are - but I will bet you 99.997% of THE SKEPTICS on this board are here because on some level they also "want to" believe.

I mean come on - the Universe is this HUGE crazy-awesome place - do you honestly think anyone would really prefer we turn out to be the only ones around to wonder what we're doing in it?

Does anyone openly hope that interstellar travel is basically impossible because they like the idea of being stuck on this lonely rock forever??

NO!

Even the really cynical skeptics - they're still taking the time to read this board, must mean there's something about this subject that peaks their interest, right? Why would anyone waste their time following something they completely reject? I 100% don't believe in Unicorns. I spend 0% of my time on Unicorn message boards bashing others for their stupid Unicorn beliefs.

So please understand - everyone, SKEPTICS AND BELIEVERS, all on some level would probably like to believe the same thing.


But where we differ from each other is first and foremost in this recognition of our own "wanting".

Real skeptics are skeptical because they have to be. They understand how dangerous it is for anyone, including themselves, to believe in something simply because they want to. This is a particularly slippery slope when dealing with a subject as mysterious as UFOs:

When you do that - you begin to cherry-pick "facts". You irresponsibly jump to conclusions in the presence of something unexplainable. You become excited and quickly fill the gaps with your own beliefs rather than taking the time to evaluate all possible explanations. You begin to obfuscate the truth. And if you get carried away with it - that's when you make easy prey for all the hoaxers out there who recognize your desperate wanting and completely exploit it.

And in case you haven't noticed - all of these problems exist and make UFOlogy the big convoluted mess you see today. Nobody even needs to cover up the truth anymore because we've done it all for them.


...
So please stop preaching to each other about keeping your faith, because it's irrelevant. There's nothing wrong with believing but in the end it's not going to make your aliens show up - it didn't work on the 14th and it hasn't done squat for the last 60+ years.

What we need in UFOlogy is NOT more "believers" - we need grounded, critical thinkers. We need people who lend credibility to the idea of believing while stopping short of irreversibly committing to the act itself.

If you truly have unwavering faith in UFOs then you shouldn't feel this constant need to validate your belief by having everyone else see things the way you do.

If you really think the truth will one day come out then you don't need everyone else to think like you - you merely need to inspire them to think for themselves.

Please just think about this the next time you spend 10 pages arguing over some blurry Youtube video.

There are some people who if aliens landed tomorrow and declared martial law, would put brown bags over their heads and walk around chanting "hoax, hoax, hoax, hoax" over and over until they went insane im afraid.

There having skepticism and being completely in denial of anything except what you already decided in your own mind was possible, and theres plenty of the latter type on this board, although obviously not all

The ones who say "it cant be this, it cant be that because UFOs dont exist, theres no such thing" are as bad as those claiming we are invaded by aliens.

Two extremes of the same type of thinking.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by silver6ix]

I would love to believe there is alien life visitng us. I just have not found anything in all the I have read or seen to make me believe. Until undeniable evidewnce comes along and not just stories, heresay or pics/vids that only show unknown craft(UFO does not mean alien flying them) then I would believe. There are a few stories out there that make you think and speculate..but in the end that all it is...SPECULATION.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by riggs2099]

reply to post by silver6ix


For sure, but the thing is those tightwads wouldn't be nearly as common in the UFO scene if the blind believers didn't exist for them to pick on - which is why I'm calling out the prey instead of the predators.

I have more faith that the extreme believers can at least point their enthusiasm in the right direction than I do the narrow-minded saps ever being able to look past their own egos for the greater good.

The close-minded skeptics have no effect on the truth - if they choose to reject it that's their problem not ours.

But when all the believers are jumping head first into the pool, and the trolls chasing after them, it creates a giant unnecessary mess that the rest of us have to constantly wade through to get to the facts.



...
riggs - exactly. But speculation is essentially the first step in applying the scientific method. It gives you a lead to follow-up on and attempt to prove. If we all made a better effort to stop wasting our time looking for disclosure on youtube we might actually get somewhere with that speculation.

Originally posted by riggs2099
I would love to believe there is alien life visitng us. I just have not found anything in all the I have read or seen to make me believe. Until undeniable evidewnce comes along and not just stories, heresay or pics/vids that only show unknown craft(UFO does not mean alien flying them) then I would believe. There are a few stories out there that make you think and speculate..but in the end that all it is...SPECULATION.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by riggs2099]

You believe gravity exists though dont you? Seems your able to take as many leaps of faith as you want as long as the right person is pulling the strings. Its kind of like being institutionalised im afraid.

Yes, I'll admit that a part of me wants to "Believe".

However, I'm on the fence so to speak. I just haven't seen enough verifiable things to convince me but I don't dismiss it out of hand either. What I do is study threads and I learn from both sides. Both Pro and Con. I've seen a number of hoaxes but I've also read about the unexplainable too. One can learn just as much from a debunk and one can from what one would hope is a confirmation. Separating the wheat from the chaff is a very long process and if one has his mind only open to one extreme or the other then you don't learn.

I'm here to learn.

Originally posted by Deson
I'm here to learn.

And ideally we should all be here to teach each other.

I just think we'd be much better at it if certain people made a genuine effort to let go of their convictions a little bit.

Originally posted by silver6ix

You believe gravity exists though dont you? Seems your able to take as many leaps of faith as you want as long as the right person is pulling the strings. Its kind of like being institutionalised im afraid.

Gravity is a belief now?
So when Apollo left the Earths pull @ 11 km/s it was only because we believed it would keep going?

Originally posted by wookiee

Originally posted by silver6ix

You believe gravity exists though dont you? Seems your able to take as many leaps of faith as you want as long as the right person is pulling the strings. Its kind of like being institutionalised im afraid.

Gravity is a belief now?
So when Apollo left the Earths pull @ 11 km/s it was only because we believed it would keep going?

See here we have the beauty of truth, some people dont even know the turth. Yes, gravity is a belief exactly the point.

What goes up must come down, and the EFFECTS of that which we call gravity is simply a PHENOMENON, one which we use the "law" of gravity to support but we cannot prove it because to do so requires the existence of other particles which we have consistantly failed to be able to prove. Until such time as the mythical graviton is identified gravity itself will always be theory.

So your solid belief in the theory gravity is based upon an imaginary particle which nobody has seen or has any evidence of

Now tell me about whats definitely real.

reply to post by mc_squared


Absolutly fantastic post S+F. I agree 100 percent with your statements.

Skeptics ARE NOT the enemy believers!!!!!!!

We all want the same thing. I hope everyone will realize without the skeptics questions UFology would be even more of a mess then it already is.

You know why they question things? Because they care about it! They want it to be leigt and taken seriously. If every blurry photo and questionable video is blindy accepted without investigation the subject loses all credibility.

I don't think believers are crazy, wrong or stupid and I hope they don't think I'm a disinformation agent mind controled zombie.

If we can't have intelligent discussion without name calling we will get nowhere.

Can't we all just get along?

reply to post by mc_squared


hear hear! A star and a flag for you. People need to realize that skeptics and believers need each other. period! Its a symbiotic circle. Without them, i cant imagine how much bunk would exist in ufology(theres already alot!). Skeptics provide the neccessary challenge to ufology for it to eventually be taken seriously.

Research & theory without peer review is worthless.

Likewise, without the investigation and research, there would be no evidence for skeptics to debate and debunk.

We need each other and should support each other, and most important of all, RESPECT, each other(Even when one of them foams at the mouth).

Originally posted by silver6ix
There are some people who if aliens landed tomorrow and declared martial law, would put brown bags over their heads and walk around chanting "hoax, hoax, hoax, hoax" over and over until they went insane im afraid.

There having skepticism and being completely in denial of anything except what you already decided in your own mind was possible, and theres plenty of the latter type on this board, although obviously not all

The ones who say "it cant be this, it cant be that because UFOs dont exist, theres no such thing" are as bad as those claiming we are invaded by aliens.

Two extremes of the same type of thinking.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by silver6ix]

hear hear i completly agree
the los angeles case for instance
why would they fire 1800 rounds at a `weather balloon`...but will the skeptics accept it was an unidentified craft possibly from another planet or timezone, NO THEY WONT!

The only difference between the skeptics and believers is that skeptics need scientific proof, wereas believers dont.

Its that simple.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by Man_Versus_AntiMan]

Skepticism is a very loose term. I dont think UFO study needs skeptics any more than it needs Blossom Goodchild.

Most skeptics have fail to realise that no proof is proof of nothing. Its ok to be neutral, not believing or disbelieving, but setting out with an agenda to disbelieve is no better than setting out with an agenda to believe.

Many skeptics on this board mock some of the people who believe in alien craft for their rediculous ideas and cant grasp that their own position is no better. "its a bird" fine, prove its a bird, they wont because their brand of fact doesnt require proof, only the possiblity that it fits what they CHOOSE to believe. I see no use or value for that kind of skepticism myself.

Science by its very nature accepts the unknown, has anyone ever seen anti matter? A gravitom? A string? No, and neither have any scientists, they are unknown things people believe COULD exist which fit the space in the patter they are trying to fill.

So if a UFO fits the pattern of alien ships, why does that mean youhave to have tin foil hat?

Science, gosh golly wow, has been woefully and amusingly wrong in its wild teories and accepted positions, the world is NOT flat, the Sun does not orbit the Earth, two noteable examples.

There is STILL a missing link in darwins theory, there is still no final proof of Einsteins theory on gravity.

So why skeptics are so smug and confident in their views over anyone elses I cant quite figure out.

A person believing in UFOs is not that much different than a person believing in string theory, or anti matter, or gravitons. None of them have ever been able to prove, quantify or verify their belief, its just something they believe possible.

Originally posted by silver6ix
Science by its very nature accepts the unknown, has anyone ever seen anti matter?

In 1999 CERN activated the Antiproton Decelerator, a device capable of decelerating antiprotons from 3.5 GeV to 5.3 MeV — still too "hot" to produce study-effective antihydrogen, but a huge leap forward. In late 2002 the ATHENA project announced that they had created the world's first "cold" antihydrogen. The antiprotons used in the experiment were cooled sufficiently by decelerating them (using the Antiproton Decelerator), passing them through a thin sheet of foil, and finally capturing them in a Penning trap. The antiprotons also underwent stochastic cooling at several stages during the process.

Source

Yes, antimatter exists and has been produced.

Originally posted by Deson

Originally posted by silver6ix
Science by its very nature accepts the unknown, has anyone ever seen anti matter?

In 1999 CERN activated the Antiproton Decelerator, a device capable of decelerating antiprotons from 3.5 GeV to 5.3 MeV — still too "hot" to produce study-effective antihydrogen, but a huge leap forward. In late 2002 the ATHENA project announced that they had created the world's first "cold" antihydrogen. The antiprotons used in the experiment were cooled sufficiently by decelerating them (using the Antiproton Decelerator), passing them through a thin sheet of foil, and finally capturing them in a Penning trap. The antiprotons also underwent stochastic cooling at several stages during the process.

Source

Yes, antimatter exists and has been produced.

A very bold leap in logic, they managed to produce a negatively charged proton. This doesnt prove that anti matter which is fictional still exists as a natural form.

We still ned to find true anti matter which is supposed to be present in the universe and all around us in equal measures to matter. THAT is a huge leap of logic and its going to be a LONG time before we ever find the truth of it.

If anti matter could be found the world would change forever because in theory it would be the answer to all our problems, we could travel the stars, fuel the world forever for free, you get my point, you will KNOW when anti matter is actually proven to exist naturally.

Producing a few negatively charged protons in a trillion dollar lab isnt going to solve much.

The point remains that you miss the point, science is all about proving the unknown is real, science is the art of turning fantasy into fact.

Physcis has invested hundreds of trillions in research since its beginnings.

How much has the study of UFOs ever had? Im pretty sure is UFO study spend a trillion in research they too might be able to come up with some powerful science, get the point?

[edit on 19-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Great post mate, the problem though, is that it will just start another pissing contest, which, after reading some of the replies this has already began.

At the end of the day I'm still going to be a sceptical believer, no matter what ANYONE says. It's the same for 99% of the people on this board, they're not going to turn around and say: (sceptic) "You're right! that blurry object is an alien craft!" or (Believer) "I concede, because we aren't sure what exactly it is it must be a balloon."


So, enough of the pissing contest...

Originally posted by Chadwickus
"You're right! that blurry object is an alien craft!" or (Believer) "I concede, because we aren't sure what exactly it is it must be a balloon."

The only point im making is that BOTH o those positions are unhelpful. Neither are sustainable or provable so why bother?

The only thing i believe in is UFOs, why because there are objects and evidence of objects which are unidentifiable.


So why does studying that come with a stigma attached?

Originally posted by silver6ix

A very bold leap in logic, they managed to produce a negatively charged proton. This doesnt prove that anti matter which is fictional still exists as a natural form.

To the best of my knowledge (And please correct me if I'm wrong) but I believe that a Negatively charged Proton (Anti-Proton) is indeed antimatter by all definitions.

We still ned to find true anti matter which is supposed to be present in the universe and all around us in equal measures to matter. THAT is a huge leap of logic and its going to be a LONG time before we ever find the truth of it.

I fail to understand. Are you insinuating that there is such a thing as False Antimatter? To the best of my knowlege it's either matter or antimatter. One or the other.

If anti matter could be found the world would change forever because in theory it would be the answer to all our problems, we could travel the stars, fuel the world forever for free, you get my point, you will KNOW when anti matter is actually proven to exist naturally.

As far as naturally occurring antimatter? It could very well exist it simply hasn't been located yet. The main problem is in testing a suspected chunk of Antimatter since it looks like normal matter except it has a reverse charge on it.

Producing a few negatively charged protons in a trillion dollar lab isnt going to solve much.

On that point we can agree. We need to get the manufacturing costs down in order to do anything really useful with it.

The point remains that you miss the point, science is all about proving the unknown is real, science is the art of turning fantasy into fact.

And you missed my point about Antimatter existing and having been manufactured.

How much has the study of UFOs ever had? Im pretty sure is UFO study spend a trillion in research they too might be able to come up with some powerful science, get the point?

Not knowing how much money is invested into UFO research per yearly I really can't answer that.


Rather than derail this thread any further might I suggest that you post your viewpoints concerning Antimatter and how you apparently feel that the manufactured antimatter doesn't meet with your expectations in the Science and Technology Forum?

Creating a negatively charged proton only proves that can be done.

Are you suggesting it proves the big bang theory here? Are you suggesting it proves that matter and anti matter exist in equal measures in the Universe? Of course it doesnt, all it proves is that they can create a particle on what they all anti matter.

That still leaves about 90% of the work to be done as far as I can see. Its a breakthrough but it doesnt prove the whole theory of anti matter, THAT was the point.

If you wish to be pedantic though, fine again you missed the point. Science by its very nature accepts the unknown and goes looking for it so prsenting it as the crown of rational thinking and something which only believes in what exists or is possible is just false.

If science went looking for UFOs to the sum of trillions of dollars, maybe it would find one of those too, stranger things have happened. None of which makes obstinate skepticism any more valid.