This is for all the `ufo skeptics` must read

I don't know where to begin...people should believe what they want to believe. I'm gonna come out and say that I neither believe in UFO's nor do I deny them. I would be ignorant to do that. 400 billion stars just in our galaxy alone...pretty good odds that their is other life out there. However, it's really funny people want to believe so badly in these types of things. Aliens existing, the world ending, etc...that their reality become blurred. Look at all the people that believed what that lady said about the UFO coming on october 14th, or the guy just before that, that said a dirty bomb or whatever would be announced to be in some city. I have to laugh at all this because it's not just you guys, but the whole world who wants to see some magnificient event that sould be the single greatest thing to ever have happened to man kind. For example 2012...so many people link this to doomsday or the return of christ, a comet hitting, world war 3, whatever...I really don't care. But guys do your research...How many times in the past hundreds of years have things like this been speculated and have proven to be false...seriously research it. Their has been several 2012's in the past only to be proven never to have happened. People can be minuplated so easily and that really is a downfall of ours. Jesus by the way is well more documented than UFO's in much more detail...At the same time Jesus was the most popular name back when the Jesus we know was born.

But seriously sure russia may plant photos of them with ufos. The media is a powerful tool and any leverage they can gain is well leverage. I don't think anyone should come out and say deffinitively that UFO's exist or do not exist. The people who believe in all this speculation to an extreme are the crazies out there. And it amazes me how uneducated these people are. The world just really wants to believe that this is their time...and when something great doesn't happen it gets swept into the dustbin of history that no one no longer cares about or cares to research. DO YOUR RESEARCH.

reply to post by weneedtoknow


Show me an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me an alien. You can't. Show me a piece of an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me one place on this earth where space aliens have landed. You can't. Show me some impact that space aliens have had on this planet. You can't. End of story.

reply to post by zorgon


Fantastic. Now if you can prove that that is what Piacenza was talking about being at the WTCs on 9-11-01, I will give your post a star.

I thought the Mexican airforce footage turned out to be a gas platforms ?
In any case if there wasn't so many ***holes posting crap and CGI we might get somewhere.

The video of the BALLOON was taken by Alberto Meyer, and I have been directly in touch with him: since he was and is an amateur astronomer, he decided to share his documentation (and NOT just the video) with some of the most trained european astronomers, including the french one who recentrly discovered one of the Moons of Saturn: someone else then simply downloaded the video, pulling it in fact OUT of its contest, and shared it. To watch (and to "analyze") the video by itself is pointless, because what one needs is ALL the documentation: the object NEVER changed direction, this was assessed by PROFESSIONAL astronomers after ANALYZING the WHOLE documentation: every attempt to jump to some different conclusion can't be taken seriously, plain and simple, unless one would provide us with the calculations made on the whole documentation, especially on the spreadsheet containing the data related to the movement of the Moon. That's the point: the telescope was tracking the Moon, and in order to assess the actual flight path you'd have to subtract the movement of the Moon from the movement of the balloon, basing your calculations upon the SCIENTIFIC DATA contained in the spreadsheet: if you would have done that, now you should be aware that it NEVER changed path, while it just showed some weak acceleration perfectly consistent with the one of a ballon:

the object only "apparently" changes its path: we can see the change of path if we do not consider that the focus was on the Moon. But, since the Moon was/is NOT still, and the focus was on the Moon, the apparent result is similar to the one of an object which changes path. The object NEVER changed its path: just a few times changed its speed. We debated it some time ago: at the discussion partecipated even the French scientist who discovered one of the newest moons of Saturn: after the discussion and the scientific analysis of the technical data, we assested that it was most likely a balloon which diameter was between 11 and 15 inches, at an altitude of approx 4 miles.
You probably downloaded the excel file in which the data about the subtraction of the movement of the moon is missing.

they are just undecided about the inches, for this reason they say between 11 and 15 inches rather than, for example, 13 inches: ALL in the video match perfectly the ballon EXPLANATION (not THEORY, scientific data based EXPLANATION): its appearance, its size, its focus, its speed, its behavious in flight, all match the explanation provided by the professional astronomers after doing some SERIOUS analysis. The documentation is (sometimes) available HERE: looking forward to see the calculations PROVING that the object changed its path, but bear in mind that the author himself is 100% convinced that it was a ballon: if we want to discuss the facts, then these are the facts, i'm not interested in convincing anyone, and i don't ask to anyone to accept passively the explanation: but in order to argue with it, one should perform analysis at least of the same level or higher

Regarding the italian footage, some things important to know:

• The video, in VHS format, was given ANONYMOUSLY to an italian freelance researcher, Antonio Chiumiento, who is an ufologist.
  
• In the box containing the film, there was written " I fear".
  
• One year after, it has been sent to other researchers: so far, is NOT clear who sent the copies to whom.
  
• The VHS in question was esteemed to be a seventh generation one; this means that the original footage was copied to another magnetic tape, then from there was copied to another magnetic tape, then copied to another magnetic tape and so on until it was copied to the VHS in question. Every time that you make a copy you leave some "fingerprints": they were found during the analysis. This means a HUGE loss of data, and raises the first doubts: was this series of copies a deliberate attemp to hide something, or was simply the result of some process involving a specific hyerarchical order? The most logical explanation is the second one: if one was playing with CGI then he would have been able to hide the details wanted without a general loss of data.
  
  
• Aviano is what you would call the perfect UFO hotspot: i've been there for some time, and especially the old people recall to have spotted UFOS that in some days were visible at breakfast, at lunch and at dinner. We are talking about people who shared their stories with me, in front of a fire, no attention seekers, no paranoid.
  
  
• Aviano AFB is claimed to be the european Area 51 (more properly, AS4): people see airplanes landing and literally disappear below the level of the ground.
  
  
• The (relatively) better quality of the video on youtube is this one,
  titled "UFO over a river in italy": it.youtube.com...
  
  
  
• This is the video of the first time it has been disclosed on TV:
  www.youtube.com...
  
  
• The footage was taken here:
  
  
  
  
  
• This is a closeup of the sighting area
  
  
  
  
  
• Some guys went to the area f the sighting time after the sighting took place, and took some pics:
  
  
  
  
  
• This is the distance between Aviano AFB and the sighting location:
  
  
  
  On Google Earth, THIS Ponte di Giulio does not appear in the search results (The column visible in the film is the one of a hydroelectric grid).
  
  

These are more or less the elements available regarding this footage. This video, was claimed to have been debunked because some guy called a local TV ANONYMOUSLY and claimed to be the author of the footage, a CGI.

BUT

He never provided the native 3d model etc (for instance, look what did Barzolff provided about UFO haiti)
He claimed to be able to duplicate it in "half an hour" starting from ZERO: EVERYONE who has even a rough knowledge in CGI knows that half an hour is barely enough to decide what general shape to give to the UFO, not to mention its 3d appearance, its texture, its reflection, the environment, etcetera. Keep also in mind that this is supposed to be a CGI done in POST PROCESSING: a post processed UFO is not very easy to be created:
you have to make reflections, shadows, motion blur etc consistent with what was previously caught on tape: the guy who called the TV was a crock.
Today it would be easy to create it, at the time it was less easy because the software was at least less user friendly than today is.

The footage was examined in Hollywood by Rob and Rebecca Gordon: their take was that the object seen in the footage was an actual one: but since the footage was on VHS support, and since it was at least a seventh generation one, no one could ever be able to rule out possible modification in the framerate: the CGI was ruled out, NOT possible changes in the framerate. In my opinion too it could be a remote controlled military aircraft: i don't see how its size would rule out this possible explanation. Not just toys can be remotely controlled


[edit on 19/10/2008 by internos]

Originally posted by Nohup
But we don't have a clue as to what it is evidence of. Aliens? I don't know of anything that has ever proven that beyond a doubt. Time travelers? An equally likely scenario. Physically generated thought forms? Just as good an explanation as any. Or, as I've often said, UFOs might not be anything as simple and dull as aliens from space, but might represent aspects of consciousness and reality and time that we don't understand and might possibly not be able to understand. Incomprehensible.

Sure, we don't know what UFOs are for sure. They could be anything. Though are they just as likely time travelers as aliens? (though either would be pretty cool, if you ask me!) I would say no to an equal probability though. We know life can exist on a planet. We know there are other planets. If an alien lives on another planet, then there's a chance, though maybe small, that the alien could visit our planet. However.... is time travel possible? We don't know that. It may be possible or it may be impossible. The fact that life can exist on a planet makes it slightly more likely for a UFO to be an alien ship than a time traveler.

Though we don't know for 100% certain that there are aliens out there, we do know that there COULD be aliens out there. We know that it's possible for aliens to be out there. I'm just saying that maybe less unknown factors makes alien visitation at least somewhat slightly more likely than time travel....? Or maybe.... you can never truly calculate something's likelihood when unknown factors are involved? Anyone that knows more about statistics/probability able to clear this up?

[edit on 19-10-2008 by GrayFox]

reply to post by spacebagel


Why stop there. If you want to be a skeptic, eat the whole enchilada!

Prove to me we are all real and not a computer simulation.

Lack of evidence, isnt evidence. Likewise theory exists in the vacuum of certain knowledge. Where humanity has vacuum, we fill with theory, assumption, conjecture, Gods, Aliens, the afterlife, American Idol predictions, science, archaeology, ufology whatever field you care to name. We fill the gaps in our existance, and I am sure you do it as well day to day just like the rest of us apes in making assumptions given the knowledge we have at hand.(If you dont you may well be an alien, its not under the beanie is it?)

Theorize, Research, Results, Review. Repeat. We are very early in this process, and we have competition from our governments, we have a stigma from the mainstream sheep and we have targets who are also intent on not leaving much in the way of tangible physical artifacts.

Where is our evidence? Where is the universe? Where is my TV remote?

All will be answered in time with effort.





Wait...... Found the remote.

Originally posted by Gaderel


Prove to me we are all real and not a computer simulation.
lack of evidence isn't evidence

That's just dumb....anyone can prove they exist and that we are not computer simuation. As for lack of evidence not being evidence..lack of evidence just makes the arguement for aliens visiting us that much weaker. UFO's + aliens is a different thing. As for people being sheep..the believers are...why?..because they choose to believe blindly when there has never been any solid proof of alien visiting us. They believe on specualtion only and do not believe on facts.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by riggs2099]

reply to post by weneedtoknow


Skeptics, which make up the vast majority of earth are wonderful, down to earth scientific, intelligent yet lost closed minded, locked down people. lol

It's great though, they serve their purpose well and what more can you expect from them. They just don't know any better, they have not yet had their own revelation or experiences that have confirmed to them beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Those who understand how tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny and insignificant this little planet is in comparison to endless endless endless--- or does this sound better quadrillion, drillion, drillion drillion drilion drillion, infinity infinity infinity infinity planets and stars. Does everyone even comprehend how little earth is in comparison to everything else?
(No I'm sure you don't because infinity concept is incomprehensible to our human understanding and mind.)

Just viewing what we can of space in comparison to earth is almost a test, just knowing how small earth is and looking around at all that energy out there, YES energy infinity X's greater than what is found in our solar system is our test. How can we even question that energy does not equal life or create it. Infinite amount of stars some trillions of times greater and beyond our tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny sun. Yet some of us somehow are so lost on this tiny piece of grass like tiny ants that we actually believe we are the only one's and there are no birds flying above our ground no that is insane, crazy, impossible, unimaginable.

The ant never comprehends the butterfly and the butterfly never comprehends the bird as the butterfly breezes right over the ant hill and the bird flys above them all. Just a small analogy, Oh it's not the best thought but it's a reality that we are those ants in comparison to the endless universe and we are nothing more than army ants and proven to be with all of our endless wars. Have we evolved from the ant.lol

Maybe that applies to the skeptics alone...--J/K

Hey stay the same, don't change for anyone or anything and believe whatever you believe and most important follow your heart because that is what individuality and eternal progression is all about. We are all wrong in one way or another and nobody has the full picture or ever will until we upgrade into something greater capable of comprehending more but it will be a never ending journey I'm afraid but there is no doubt in my personal mind that all things are possible, just look at our earth and all the life coming from what some people feel started from NOTHING. Sounds more unbelieveable to me that everything came from nothing out of nowhere versus it's an organized well planned out universe and you are on a NEED TO KNOW BASIS ONLY.

Yes my fellow ants we are on a NEED TO KNOW BASIS ONLY and that is just about as close to the truth as you can get.



[edit on 19-10-2008 by Malevolent_Aliens]

Wasn't this already debunked way back in 2004?????
www.abovetopsecret.com...

To be honest I don't believe in ET visiting this planet... But I guess that just means that the mind control is working well on me.

END COMMUNICATIONS!

reply to post by internos


Nice comments although I would not have wasted my time, it will fall on deaf ears, they want to believe, they want to believe so much that they are willing to believe anything and if it appears on TV... Well it's even more real.. don't waste your time let them collate their images of oil fields and balloons it makes no odds to me. I'll quietly wait until something real does come along and if it doesn't no matter I haven't invested anytime or effort into it and I still look sain.

If UFO's exist on an extra-planetary medium why hasn't everyone seen them? Why are so many proved fake? How do you know they're not testing vehicles for the military? Why do you jump to conclusions so quickly?

If aliens exist through these unidentified saucers, I think it will only be a number of years before they will be common knowledge. After all, people used to laugh at the thought the earth was round not long ago (in terms of the universe's scale).

[edit on 19-10-2008 by KIRKSTERUK]

Originally posted by spacebagel
reply to post by weneedtoknow

 

Show me an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me an alien. You can't. Show me a piece of an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me one place on this earth where space aliens have landed. You can't. Show me some impact that space aliens have had on this planet. You can't. End of story.

Exactly.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by KIRKSTERUK]

Originally posted by riggs2099

That's just dumb....anyone can prove they exist and that we are not computer simuation.

Really? I cant prove that I exist any more than I can prove YOU exist. All I have is a set of knowledge and an environment to interact in. Doesnt prove a hell of alot when you think about it, Microsoft Solitaire has atleast that much. Paying tax and sentient thought arent sufficent to prove anything if our entire existance is a construct. I'd think a little deeper if I were you before proclaiming anything or anyone "dumb". Show a little manners if you dont mind.

As for lack of evidence not being evidence..lack of evidence just makes the arguement for aliens visiting us that much weaker. UFO's + aliens is a different thing.

For the UFO community to prove a positive they need one case in 1000's to prove factual and have the evidence to back it up, be it medical, physical or environmental. You on the other hand, need to disprove every single case presented, and refute every single piece of evidence as having a terrestrial origin. Proving the negative is far more work. This is disregarding all the eye witness testimony, which if only 1% was true, would still equate to many cases worldwide.

The pre columbus world knew the earth was flat, as a fact based on the evidence at hand. Gravity, while not a law yet, was known to those at the time, known to be logical and infallible. The earth was flat, or the water and the people and all we built would fall off. Only a mad man would argue differently at the time.

Times change, evidence is gathered, "the common wisdom" changes.

As for people being sheep..the believers are...why?..because they choose to believe blindly when there has never been any solid proof of alien visiting us. They believe on specualtion only and do not believe on facts.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by riggs2099]

Here is where you probably thought I was attacking you and hence the snitty tone of your post. However, I dont call mainstream society a society of sheep because they dont believe. I call them sheep because they don't think at all about what happens around them, and are happy to digest MTV and 90210 until death.

You arent a sheep, as you can atleast participate in the discussion(Although be it rudely) and offer a thought out position. The majority of society in the west are happy to dismiss both sides of the argument as not as important as what someone on TV told them to be concerned about.

I apologize if you thought i was referring to skeptics as sheep, however this is and was never my intent. My intent was to point out how we are easily dismissed as heavily medicated crackpot lunatics, an assumption on their part, which while true in some areas, does not hold true for 100% of the cases.

Originally posted by KIRKSTERUK

Originally posted by spacebagel
reply to post by weneedtoknow

 

Show me an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me an alien. You can't. Show me a piece of an alien spacecraft. You can't. Show me one place on this earth where space aliens have landed. You can't. Show me some impact that space aliens have had on this planet. You can't. End of story.

Exactly. ditto...

[edit on 19-10-2008 by KIRKSTERUK]

reply to post by Gaderel


I also apologize for my tone. I though u were calling the skeptics sheep as so many believers have done in the past. I first came into this as a believer..I witnesses unknown lights in the sky..two lights in the sky(diff times) and one daylight sighting. I wanted to find answers so i pretty much read every book on the subject..and also read almost every book on abduction(neva thought i was abducted just found it interesting) and have looked at as mcuh photo/video evidence there is. In the end I came to realize that there is everything i read or watched only came from a believers perspective. I went to the other side of it and found that the skeptic side made more sense than did the believers side. Of course there are the extreme skeptics..hate those guys...the ones that don;t do any investigating and just shove everything to the side. I have an open mind but not so open that i will blindly believe. I need some type of proof anything...after all the sightings worldwide...there is nothing that proves they are alien craft. The most reasonable assumption is that these sighting can be attributed to natural phenomenon and secret military craft or people are just simply mistaken. I have already stated what i believe the abductin phenomenon is. The implants could be metorites or something else...the shapes vary so much that it is crazy to say they are intelligently made. If something was intelligently made I think these things would at least have a common design and not such random shapes such those you would find in nature.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by riggs2099]

The biggest mistake made on this thread by the starter is he gives it a "us vs them" comparison. It's like, if someone chooses to question the footage, you are classed as the enemy. Make your arguments less biased and maybe then we'll get an intelligent discussion without the attitude.

reply to post by riggs2099


Thats fine. I too have seen unexplained lights at high altitude doing things that would render a human pilot a sack of useless meat particles. I come from a department of defence background and worked at military bases, including air bases, so watching aircraft maneuver, was a daily routine. I couldnt explain it by any means I had at my disposal. I didnt report it for obvious reasons at the time, and promptly went on with life. However, its always been at the back of my mind.

I agree, alot of what is labelled "UFO Evidence" could be dumped directly into land fill. The truth's that go with it are often just as worthless. We have people daily dump more and more fake images and videos onto the internet. We have god knows how many "experts" all selling "truth"(Not Evidence or Fact) who are all at odds with the other "experts" and their versions of the "truth". We have people on this site, who open threads, posting conspiracies and theories with the conviction of revival preachers.

"You gotta listen! Its the truth! (Insert Group) is lying to you about (Insert Event) and I have the truth all in this convenient youtube link i saw 10 minutes ago and believe 150% because it gels with (Insert Personal Rant) that happened to me 10 minutes before that!"

You get the drift. Theres a symphony being played inside a flock a trillion seagulls, the melody is lost in the squawking, and I can understand why many people take a step back. Personally, I try and ignore those who sell truth, and focus on those who dont have all the answers. Honest people will admit to a limit of knowledge, frauds know everything plus 10%.


[edit on 19/10/2008 by Gaderel]

reply to post by weneedtoknow


How about this beauty?




looks real

reply to post by weneedtoknow


I can’t agree with you more. But they not made me a non believer after 14 October they made me a more believer. And that mass disappointment propaganda didn’t work for me I’m not born on April’s fool’s day! Good thread!