Middle America Nationalism

Originally posted by CVTman
reply to post by mybigunit

 

Yes, I agree we would be a better country without the income tax. We had a choice to nominate Micheal Huckabee just this year. Perhaps if enough of us write the McCain campaign, he can be convinced to include the Fair Tax plan as part of his platform.

Its way beyond income taxes. That is just one way. The FED is another way we dont obey the constitution. Many parts of the patriot act are unconstitutional. This idea of going to war without a congressional declaration is unconstitutional. I mean I can go on and on really I can. I actually liked Huckabee but I liked Ron Paul much more. He is the one who really wants to get us back to our roots but as I stated above anyone who does gets labeled a nut or killed.

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's feet. I just get sick of reading all these wild, and yes, sometimes justified criticisms of America. I should remind everyone that they do have the option to actually influence things. This thread lead to a specific and arguably constructive solution, the Fair Tax. Lets use our energies to actually affect things in the few weeks remaining before the election. Write the campaign of your preference, and urge them to adopt the constructive solutions of your choice.

reply to post by mybigunit


I guess I'm pretty much in agreement with you here.I'm fully for the constitution as well.People need to watch these then decide who is not patriotic.

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

video.google.com...

It will take them a while but it's definatly time well spent.

I went from EXTREME right to just plain pro Texas. I coud give a rats ass about the rest of the country. I am not alone

reply to post by southern_Guardian

Those conservatives, they got conned, republican party no longer exists (especially after 9/11), only neocon party and neocon patriotism.

Unfortunately for you, they're seemingly so happy about being conned.

Originally posted by southern_Guardian


I want troops out of this oil war, does this make me anti-american?

I want a change in direction for this nation, does this make me unpatriotic?


-When you oppose the Iraq war, your anti-troops and your anti-patriotic. So I should just sit along and believe in everything the government tells me, so long as their the republicans with "christian" ideals?


....Folks you know what this reminds me of? 1930s Germany, where you were labelled as a hater of your nation when you questioned the Nazi controlled government.

Fighting for freedom in Iraq huh? Thats why I cant question the war huh?

....They certainly dont want us there, what makes you think we're fighting for freedom?


....There were no damn WMDs, so why did we still go in there?
I cant believe that in 2008 I cant question a damn the about the government because rightie says so.

Wow, you need to slow down and stop spewing ignorant statements brought forth through your naivety.

First off, OIF is anything BUT an "Oil War". Just the fact that you fail to grasp such a wide concept, displays your narrow mindedness beyond anything else stated thereafter. It is a war which deposed one of the greatest mass murderers of our time. How was the deposing of Slobodan Milosevic in Bosnia any different? Oh wait, that was done under a Democrat President, so there you go, again, your biasedness. It is also a central front in the War on Terror, and is completely necessary (and quite effective) in drawing Extremists out of hiding so we may engage them (on FOREIGN Soil none-the-less). It is a righteous fight, and we have made great inroads in the Middle East due to such.

Change the direction of the Nation? Which direction might that be? Yes, let us shoot straight left and become a Socialist Nation which enacts "Fair Doctrine" laws and oppresses Free Speech beyond anything you have witnessed so far.

Yes, when you oppose OIF you are against the job which the U.S. Military is performing. We can thus conclude through this undeniable connection that you are in fact opposed to the Military. "Against the War but not the Troops" is a cover-story for which most Politicians have been exposed as of recent.

As for "1930's Germany" stop trying to turn around the argument linking the same to the masses chanting "Obama" and pleading for "Change" through "Hope". You have no idea what that era was like, and the connection you wish to portray is not even comparable. It is those like you who wish to lead this Nation towards complacency and Socialism, which is what NAZI Germany was about. No one is stifling your freedom to speak your view, no one is in the streets snatching up everyone's firearms as of yet (Which IS something the Socialist Democrats wish to do), and no one is running you out of town. So calm down.


As for the WMD's, time and time again it has been documented that Iraq did have them. There are SAT Images of the Trucks ferrying them over the border into Syria pre-OIF, along with the HUMINT confirming such. You also must be missing the blatantly obvious aspect of the fact that Iraqi Soldiers were issued CHEM Suits and CHEM Antidotes pre-OIF. The statement of "There Were No WMD's" is so naive of the actuality, the only reason you can run with such an argument is due to the Classification of contrary documents.


As for the Iraqi people, you have no clue about what the majority of them think. Most of them DO want the United States there. I have witnessed Iraqi Villagers praising the United States Military as "God-sent Angels". I have witnessed Iraqis fighting alongside the U.S. I have seen the bonds which have been formed between Iraqi Children, Families, and their American counterparts. I have seen the Schools, Water-treatment Facilities, Sewage treatment Facilities, Power Plants, Hospitals, Fire Departments, and Police Stations which have been erected. For the first time ever many of these Iraqis are now receiving Running Water, Electricity, Television, Health Care, Protection, and Education. So do not go around telling me that the Iraqis do not want us there, when you have no inside knowledge or experience of such. You form your entire basis of knowledge upon narrow perspectives and ideals.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Wow, you need to slow down and stop spewing ignorant statements brought forth through your naivety.

First off, OIF is anything BUT an "Oil War". Just the fact that you fail to grasp such a wide concept, displays your narrow mindedness beyond anything else stated thereafter. It is a war which deposed one of the greatest mass murderers of our time. How was the deposing of Slobodan Milosevic in Bosnia any different? Oh wait, that was done under a Democrat President, so there you go, again, your biasedness. It is also a central front in the War on Terror, and is completely necessary (and quite effective) in drawing Extremists out of hiding so we may engage them (on FOREIGN Soil none-the-less). It is a righteous fight, and we have made great inroads in the Middle East due to such.

Question how many people did Sadam Hussein kill? Then tell me how many people has George Bush killed? The fact is Milosevic was no better but we should of left that to the Europeans the same way we should of left Iraq to the arabs. You see how much respect we got from the world dont you? None at all. Our interventions and war mongering gets us no where. Iraq was a war for no other reason than to make the oil companies, the defense industry, and the bankers a whole lot of money PERIOD. And this is true for all wars. Where in the Constitution does it give our government the authority to police the world? Can we help out? Sure. Iraq was not a smart war and pretty much all Republicans understand this. Get with the times.


Also what is the war on terror? Who are we trying to get? Osama Bin Laden? The one who our government told us was behind 9/11? The one who now our government says had nothing to do with 9/11? The war on terror is a farce. It doesnt exist. It is punched into people like yourself mind to keep us at a constant state of war to keep the government tit going for the defense, banking, and oil industries. You know how many people in this country are labeled "terrorists" We have 40 million "domestic terrorists" in this country. How can this be?

Change the direction of the Nation? Which direction might that be? Yes, let us shoot straight left and become a Socialist Nation which enacts "Fair Doctrine" laws and oppresses Free Speech beyond anything you have witnessed so far.

Whoa so youll blame the Democrats? Im not mad at the Democrats for controlling the congress and the presidency here soon. I blame the Republicans who controlled the congress and presidency and did completely the opposite of what they ran on. Bush added 5.8 trillion dollars of debt in 8 years. It took 90 years and 15 presidents to do this and he claims to be a conservative? The Republicans as Ron Paul says have lost their way and I hope this election is a wake up call to get their Shiite together.

As for "1930's Germany" stop trying to turn around the argument linking the same to the masses chanting "Obama" and pleading for "Change" through "Hope". You have no idea what that era was like, and the connection you wish to portray is not even comparable. It is those like you who wish to lead this Nation towards complacency and Socialism, which is what NAZI Germany was about. No one is stifling your freedom to speak your view, no one is in the streets snatching up everyone's firearms as of yet (Which IS something the Socialist Democrats wish to do), and no one is running you out of town. So calm down.

Putting Obama in the same camp as the Nazis shows your lack of knowledge of history. Obama is going to bring HUGE government no doubt about it but so have the Republicans. They are both the same. At least the Democrats tell you up front they are going to raise your taxes and bring big government. They dont hide it like the Republicans do.

As for the WMD's, time and time again it has been documented that Iraq did have them. There are SAT Images of the Trucks ferrying them over the border into Syria pre-OIF, along with the HUMINT confirming such. You also must be missing the blatantly obvious aspect of the fact that Iraqi Soldiers were issued CHEM Suits and CHEM Antidotes pre-OIF. The statement of "There Were No WMD's" is so naive of the actuality, the only reason you can run with such an argument is due to the Classification of contrary documents.


As for the Iraqi people, you have no clue about what the majority of them think. Most of them DO want the United States there. I have witnessed Iraqi Villagers praising the United States Military as "God-sent Angels". I have witnessed Iraqis fighting alongside the U.S. I have seen the bonds which have been formed between Iraqi Children, Families, and their American counterparts. I have seen the Schools, Water-treatment Facilities, Sewage treatment Facilities, Power Plants, Hospitals, Fire Departments, and Police Stations which have been erected. For the first time ever many of these Iraqis are now receiving Running Water, Electricity, Television, Health Care, Protection, and Education. So do not go around telling me that the Iraqis do not want us there, when you have no inside knowledge or experience of such. You form your entire basis of knowledge upon narrow perspectives and ideals.

Where did Iraq get those chemical weapons hmm? Try us during the Iraq Iran war. You know that war when Iraq invaded Iran with our backing. But none of the weapons were found were they? Get over it Iraq was a farce. It made the right people a ton of money which somehow didnt trickle down considering wages went no where in the Bush years. As far as Iraq getting all of those nice stuff. Hey Im glad we could fund it for them while our roads, bridges, and dams are crumbling because of our 1950s built infrastructure. Country first right?

[edit on 19-10-2008 by mybigunit]

[edit on 19-10-2008 by mybigunit]

All this conspiracy stuff is tiring. Its amazing how someone is capable of digging back 60, 80 and 100 years when there is an election in two weeks. NASA is said to have started the faked moon landing rumors themselves for the purposes of masking their real intentions and giving themselves cover. I contend that a similar thing is happening here, at this moment, while we rant on and on about these real - and sometimes imagined -things, the elections creep ever closer. Then the door will shut again for at least two years.

While I agree with many of you that yes, there are cover-ups and conspiracies going back decades and centuries, and while I agree that people need to be informed of the hidden agendas of a powerful few, I contend that at least one of these scams, the income tax, can be eliminated if we will all write either the McCain or Obama campaign and insist that they adopt the Fair Tax into their platform.

For skeptics that think there's not enough time, well, I'd say theres enough time after the election to continue the regular rants here. Take a minute and write a letter as I have done several times these past few months

We have the opportunity now to start dislodging at least one brick from this conspiratorial wall that, as many of you agree, is crippling our society from being its very best.

I don't support anyone's troops (except my tiny ones when I play "Risk" on psychedelics). And I can be proud to be an American. And I expect the United States of America to be inclusive of moi.

We just need our elected officials to reign in the damn corporations. they are clearly out of control. If money is power guess where the power is? Corporations have no soul, and respect only one thing-profit at the expense of everything else. I say reign in the corporations worldwide and quality of life will improve everywhere.

In my opinion, you're doing the right thing by questioning the government's actions.

It doesn't matter what country you live in, an un-checked government is eventually a corrupt government where wealth and power accumulate to those very few that control the system.

A Republic or even a Democracy can only exist in a society that keeps their government reeled in. Unfortunately, we've let the American government slide for so long that we've passed beyond a Republic, which was originally intended (see The Constitution of The United States of America), and even beyond a Democracy, which we've never been (see HR1224 Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008), into a borderline dictatorship (see H.R. 5122 and NSPD-51/HSPD-20).

reply to post by Grumble

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! This is what I have been trying to tell people for ages. There isn't that much of a difference amongst the general population, but that is not what the media wants us to believe; they show only the most extreme (who also happen to be the loudest) and paint them as the norm. I consider myself to be very conservative in just about every respect, yet am nothing like those that are shown on the tube/net. Maybe they should be called pseudo-cons or decepta-cons instead of neo-cons...that makes them sound too good. 'Liberal', I think, is an accurate term...liberal with other peoples earnings, taxes, etc. so long as it does not negatively impact the politicians and their cronies!
This has got to be one of the saddest election cycles I have ever witnessed. The two candidates that are being promoted truly are anti-America/unpatriotic. I have never seen such blatant disdain for the Constitution of the United States of America as I have seen with the current candidates. Both major candidates have thrown away our trust when they voted FOR the bailout plan...biggest piece of crap bill I have ever seen..."oink, oink"; note: do not read it, it will only make you depressed that we have people who were elected to represent us passing this kind of bs. Both would have the constitution re-written to their advantage. If the framers of the constitution did not mean what they said, why did they not put it another way? I, for one, think they were smart enough to put their intentions to paper, in words that are easily understood. I am not even a so-called 'expert' on the constitution as one candidate claims...yet he would essentially void the second amendment (his voting history on this is disturbing). The other candidate is only a substantial contribution away from the same. If our voices are heard but not heeded, what other option do we have? 'We can vote them out of office' one man says...and who will take his place? Another corrupt politician who doesn't give a damn about those he/she represents until it's time to get re-elected. 'We could rebel' says another...with what, sticks and stones? Hard to beat even a handful of m60s and whatnot with a big pile of rocks. Without the second, we have none! But enough about why both of these candidates are unsuitable to be the President of The United States of America.
To the OP's topic: Is it unpatriotic to question the government (regardless of party affiliation)? No; in fact in would be unpatriotic not to do so. To allow our representatives to lead us astray while standing idly by is unpatriotic. To believe everything that is said on the basis of party lines is unpatriotic. And, may I add in my opinion, to vote for either of the two jokers we have 'chosen' is unpatriotic (we all know who really chooses the candidates for which we vote). I, personally have lost any faith in what the government does; I dare anyone in the government to show me a program the government started (or one which they took over) that was wildly successful, and benefited the American people...I can think of none yet there are many examples to the contrary: one needs to look no further than our failed public education system; I mean really, with the money we spend on education we shouldn't be among the most ignorant developed nations of the world! Need I also mention social security and unemployment? I believe all the intelligent ones on this board know where I am going with this (not a jab at anybody, I truly think there are many bright minds here)...the current government is acting not for the good of the people, but in its own interests. My apologies for the lengthy post, I hope it makes sense and does not hijack the OP's topic.

Hi Guys:

Long time lurker, and this is only my second post on ATS - hence the scores..
I just couldn't bite my lip any more on this one.

As a legal resident (not citizen) in the US I don't have a vote. It's actually okay, as I don't have biased partisan politics clouding my view as it does for some.

Here are some observations I've made, and I apologize in advance, if I upset the more vehemently partisan among you (also, please excuse the ramblings of the madman...):

* Why is this the first election in about sixteen years that I've actually heard some policies? The bulk of the election campaigns I've seen have just been pure mudslinging. Character-assassination is not the same as having an opposing ideal. Why do the politicians feel the need to attack each other rather than policies? As I said, this year has been a little different. Still a lot of mudslinging, but at least an attempt at policy and information.

* Not sure if thing have changed, but when I last looked "Socialism" and "Communism" were to completely separate ideals. There's been some kind of campaign to weld the two together so that the word "Socialism" immediately illicits some Pavlovian response that we're heading down the road to Communism. Not true, not accurate, not necessary. Fox news doesn't help here.

* "If you're not with us, you're with THEM!" - Remember that? Good one...
No way anyone could really sell the idea of "If you're not with us, we'll gladly receive your objections and answer you truthfully."
I support the troops. Sure I do. I don't support the mission. Damn, there's my invitation to the FEMA camp stamped and mailed.
This factioning of America has been going on for a while.

* We're on "Orange Alert"!!!! Can Fox news tell me what I'm supposed to do during this crisis? Go shopping?
Fearmongering. I don't know why you voters put up with it.

* Patriotism is a love of one's country. It's not solely owned by the Republicans. They do, however, seem to believe they have the monopoly on patriotism. Sad, really.

* Questioning one's government is one's right. Think of those who have died for this. Your war of revolution is a perfect example. The civil war in England is another. Yet there seems to be no system in place to question anything the government does. Sure, there are certain security linked things that it's "possibly" better that we don't see, but on the whole there are many things that go unanswered. I'll cite the no-bid contracts to Halliburton etc. as one. I know there are many others. The current administration seems to have an arrogance that would be befitting of Charles I of England, Louis of France...
Question, question, question.

* Why do I get the feeling that Obama is just another Jimmy Carter. Full of good intention, and saying all the right things, but get's his feet under the oval office desk just in time to get the "memo" from the suits; "Here's how it actually is going to be..."

Oh, I could go on, but I'll spare you. I'll just say that the OP was completely right. Why does the American public let itself be swayed, bullied, and lulled into a "all is well, because we said so.." trance?

I was talking to a chap a few weeks ago who told me that he did not, in any way understand any of the current McCain/Palin policy, but he would vote Republican because he was "A republican." He added that "Obama just sounds too much like 'Osama' for him to trust him...
Keep drinking the Cool-Aid.

Is this what your forefathers died for? This kind of thinking?

This thread seems to be going in the direction of "what is wrong with America" Lets all post our individual lists of the top three things we think is wrong with our country. Maybe this should be another thread, but I'll post my list here.

1.) The Income Tax
2.) Social Security

Both of notions are unconstitutional. You pretty much HAVE to pay into these programs if you want to take advantage of the rest that America has to offer. I know people who've paid into Social Security their whole lives, and who died shortly after retirement, receiving as few as two S.S. checks totaling less than $1000.00 USD. A lifetime of work, rewarded by HUNDREDS of dollars!!!! Wow, that is truly incredible. Its better than winning a free ticket on one of those scratch off lottery tickets.

The Fair Tax, btw, solves our problems with the income tax, and addresses Social Security in a way that I think will simplify future reform of this program, or at least put us on a much better footing to rehabilitate and possibly eliminate this program.

3.) Affirmative Action - Unconstitutional to the core

As an aside, I've seen the Zeitgeist videos and have been considering the implications for a while. I might one day add the notion of a Central Bank to the above list in spot #3. I have one problem with basis of the theory, and that is:

The Dollar is backed by Debt.

I would say that the growth of our economy is backed by the prospect of return on debt, and that the dollar is backed by the value of our businesses.

Against my best judgement, being a conspiracist, I still can't subscribe to the notion that the Fed is evil, although I'm still giving this a lot of thought.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by CVTman]

reply to post by Badgered1


Absolutely brilliant post!!! Hopefully one of the Mods will applaud this, as I feel it deserves it! For only your second post, you sure made it a good one! Now if only the citizens of this country would realize it and do something to change it, that would be progress! Again I say, BRAVO, Badgered1, BRAVO!!!

Thanks for the compliment.

I just want to add that I am by no means slamming my adopted home. I love living in the US. I will say that I am troubled, on a daily basis, by those who do not question what is happening around them. It boggles the mind to see people actually believing some of the garbage that they are fed day in, day out by the MSM, the government, and each other. I'd just like to see some real critical thinking in 'main street' America.

I truly love ATS as it really does look closely at everything. Many things can be explained, and my feeling is that the ATS forums do very well in giving a balanced and fair look at everything (trolls excepted).

Pay no attention to me, I am probably swamp gas/balloon/atmospheric phenomena.

My experience is that most people holding a don't think point of view are either deliberate subversives or they are just adapting to social acceptance / peer pressure. I met a man recently as a coworker who couldn't stand the subject of conspiracy for a moment. After a few simple conversations he is now quite a bit different. Most people just prefer to conform irregardless of the truth. When they get in a situation where conformity is to consider the truth they start to open up.

The best way to start is to just start with the basics. "Do you agree that power corrupts?" If you get a yes " Then would you agree that the more absolute the power the great the corruption that is possible? ... Do you think people with billions of dollars of net worth might want to do things to help guarantee they maintain their wealth? ... Do you think institutions with religious influence over millions and millions of people, might want to retain their wealth or influence? ... Do you think elected officials might want to retain their position and might be willing to cooperate with interests that could help them keep their jobs?"

That sort of thing ---

reply to post by southern_Guardian


I think we all have to be very careful about pointing fingers at one particular group or another, or at one particular president over any others. The animosity and anger that has manifested in this line of thinking has really kept a lot of people from seeing the bigger picture. It's not the fault of just republicans or just democrats or even just Bush, even though that is the popular and most common reaction for a country to do when things go wrong. The average person isn't privy to all the political gears behind the scenes, and for the same reasons, each political group may take advantage of a situation to make the other look far worse than they really are. BOTH parties are to blame for this!

Let's keep in mind that Bush does not hold the power to make all the decisions that the country is angry about. I think this is the hardest pill for the American public to swallow....our Congress and House of Representatives hold that power. If Americans are angry over the things going on in the country, they need to look at who holds the dominating vote in the house, and who is running the house right now. It's our fault for voting in the corruption to begin with. One man and one party is not completely to blame.

As far as the financial crisis goes, that started generations ago with the addition of The Federal Reserve. There is a LOT of documentation online regarding this, and it has done nothing but snowball downhill since then. Every president since Roosevelt (I think???), has done nothing to fix the power it handed over the private entities that now run the world.

I say be firm, and question....but be careful about where the fingers point, otherwise we'll all just keep going round and round in circles, bickering over a single weed when we've not noticed that we've been engulfed by a forest.

If we want to talk about conspiracies, I believe this is exactly what "they" want us to do....fight over political parties and point blame, because the real culprits are hiding behind the scenes.

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
I think we all have to be very careful about pointing fingers at one particular group or another, or at one particular president over any others.

I agree, but I think its fair to say the vast majority of this nationalistic "if your not with us you hate the troops and america" is coming from middle america.

Let me just give you my definition of middle america, anywhere in these United States of America that is outside the urban areas which all happen to be overwhelmingly Republican. I am sick to death of the sheer arrogance and the nerve of folks here to question my patriotism because I dont agree with their logic.

The animosity and anger that has manifested in this line of thinking has really kept a lot of people from seeing the bigger picture. It's not the fault of just republicans or just democrats or even just Bush, even though that is the popular and most common reaction for a country to do when things go wrong. The average person isn't privy to all the political gears behind the scenes, and for the same reasons, each political group may take advantage of a situation to make the other look far worse than they really are.

I agree to an extent that this blame cannot be all dumped into the republican basket although Im happy to dump around three quarters of it. Not to mention this arrogance and this nationalistic attitude verymuch similar to that of Nazi Germany are majority conservatives, or Bush conservatives to be exact. Get me a video or something where you have a progressive call a conservative "anti-american" or "terrorist loving" or "troop hater" then maybe you'll make your argument more so true, but other than that this issue is of nationalistic middle america.

BOTH parties are to blame for this!

Damn straight, the democrats had a hand in this mess. They have been slack in congress, some of them whole heartedly supported the Iraq war including Hillary and Biden, and most of them stood by while the neoconservatives continued to infiltrate the republican held whitehouse. That being said in all fairness the Democrats are at most guilty of standing back and allowing themselves to believe in this garbage, allowing their own to benefit from these lies, however this mess we're in is majorty Republican my friend.

Tell me back in 79' when carter was in, was this a two party issue? Did the republicans take responsibility in part for some of this mess?

What about when Clinton was having an affair in the whitehouse, tell me why was he hanged and yet the lies of this administration and this party is given a free pass, and at the same time the democrats are all of sudden "socialists" and "mostly to blame" for some odd reason?

Both sides should take responsibility but theres a line between being an accessory to a crime and being guilty.

Let's keep in mind that Bush does not hold the power to make all the decisions that the country is angry about. I think this is the hardest pill for the American public to swallow....our Congress and House of Representatives hold that power.

So by your accounts, all the debt and the wars we have gotten into since reagan can be traced back to the congress and the representitives who were for most of the time majority republicans and only two years accounted to the Democrats? Utter BS, as far as can see it, the man at the core power over the last 8years was a Bush from the republican party. Conspiracy or not, the man is held by the people as the guardian of this nation and he failed big time.

Look as I recall this was about the nationalistic arrogance and ignorance of middle america where your patriotism is questioned because of your freedom of thinking, what are you trying to say here? The majority aint from middle america?

If Americans are angry over the things going on in the country, they need to look at who holds the dominating vote in the house, and who is running the house right now.

You mean congress elected two years ago? Come on now, we both know thats utter BS. This mess came along before this congress was elected, which was a only 2 years ago. I mean seriously now.

It's our fault for voting in the corruption to begin with. One man and one party is not completely to blame.

Damn straight its the idiots fault for voting in bush TWICE, damn straight this cannot be all the fault of the right, although its majority the right and middle america.

As far as the financial crisis goes, that started generations ago with the addition of The Federal Reserve.

And the "free thinking" "fiscal responsible" Republican administration didnt see this coming? With their $200 million a day war they didnt see this coming? With their "free market no regulation" policies they didnt see this coming? With their "shut up liberal, be pro-american and think conservatively" attitude they didnt see this coming?

Lets go back to this arrogance nationalistic attitude that seems to have consumed conservative america now shall we?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by southern_Guardian]

I say we let each state become it's own country and do away with the whole fed system. If states want to join....fine..whatever..but why the hell do we need to be linked anyway? Sign some kind of defense pact, and thats it.