American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman

Regardless of comparing US / Iraqi citizens,

that point alone is crucial (never mind the rest of the flawed analogy)- that point alone makes the analogy cretinous

the point is, full gun ownership failled to down a tyrannical regime and failed to stop an invading force.

we have no figures for legally held gun ownership when Saddam came to power (and we dont have figures for legally held guns now or in 2003, none of that is actual figures and certainly none of it is "officially" sanctioned weapons). The citizens would not "stop" the US as they removed Saddam, only those who wished to reimpose tyranny fought, naturally they failed

we do not have figures


Negating the nonsense shouted all through this thread that its every americans duty to own one incase of despotism!

Simple as that!

You have proved you have a failed analogy, very SIMPLE as that

reply to post by blueorder


I posted a link with full gun ownership before the US invaded. My point is that it didn't help them against an invading force.

Its that simple! Gun ownership pre saddam has NOTHING to do with this!! Go back and re-read! Its about the Iraqis defending against an opressing, invading force - the US.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
I posted a link with full gun ownership before the US invaded. My point is that it didn't help them against an invading force.

I have asked for stats for legally held gun ownership, you have provided no such thing

Also, as the US were not there to impose tyranny the point is even more redundant (before we even get into your Bush like mistake of equating the US experience with the Iraqi one)

Its that simple! Gun ownership pre saddam has NOTHING to do with this!! Go back and re-read! Its about the Iraqis defending against an opressing, invading force - the US.

Saddam was a tyrant and came to power, so it is something to do with it, and as the US removed a tyrant your point gets ever more ridiculous

Originally posted by PammyK
Yes I agree 100%!!! I blame it all on the Media. I for one, was a FOX/CNN news junkie for years, and now have quit watching them all the time. I go to different sites on the Web to get a perspective on different news stories now. The Media says the same old crap! I think it has shaped the thinking of Americians. VERY scary!

I respect your honesty, and I hope more and more American's are realising the media is currupt, as it's monitored by the government.


Honestly I have stopped watching the news about a year in half ago. I use my senses alot more now, I know its sounds like I'm one of those tree huggers but its the truth.

Instead of focusing my energy and time into T.V

I look around me, I look to other people. I ask people all the time, what its is that questions my thinking.

In a situation where there is a war - I ask christians, I ask muslims, I listen to Saudis, I listen to Americans, I listen to what I'm thinking, I use logic and intution and researching all sides of the story. I gather more facts from other new sources, I study the behaviour of our leaders and who they react to us, and importantly how we react to them. T.V is limited, for you to only see what the media allows you too see. You only see one side to the story, you are focused on edited material, or somebody elses material to show what is happening? You cannot judge with an open mind on this, you just cannot.


You become more open and aware when you turn off the T.V.

All in the above paragraph states that its just not possible if your depending on the news or T.V to gain insight on reality around you.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
Here's one for y'all -

Most people on this thread have argued that its every American's right to own a gun to defend against 'Despotic' rule.

Most homes in Iraq own an AK47

Didn't do them too much good against despotic rule now did it?

You may have missed my sarcasm here - the despotic rule I was referring to is American rule, not under Saddam. This however brings up another point, if Saddam was oppressive and gun ownership in Iraq was at full capacity, then the citizens should have overthrown him, as the pro gun lobby seems to beleive American gun ownership is for.

Does that clarify everything?

reply to post by blueorder


One AK47 per household. There, its a statistic I backed up with a source. What more do you want from me? receipts? Give me stats to counter the arguement instead of bleating about my stats when I keep giving you them!

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman

You may have missed my sarcasm here - the despotic rule I was referring to is American rule, not under Saddam. This however brings up another point, if Saddam was oppressive and gun ownership in Iraq was at full capacity, then the citizens should have overthrown him, as the pro gun lobby seems to beleive American gun ownership is for.

Does that clarify everything?

Ive already clarified the analogy is flawed FUNDAMENTALLY from the outset by comparing Iraqis with Yanks (which is what Bush did)- furthermore we have no official stats of legally held gun ownership either pre or post Saddam, and lastly, Saddam was the tyrant and he was overthrown by the US

To sum it up, you think it is a good analogy, I don't

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman

One AK47 per household. There, its a statistic I backed up with a source. What more do you want from me? receipts? Give me stats to counter the arguement instead of bleating about my stats when I keep giving you them!

Your analogy is fundamentally flawed from the outset

BUT

on your point, you did not give me a link to official stats for guns owned with permits, could you please do so, tis your flawed analogy you are hawking around here like some lame duck?

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
Is it just me or does anyone else find American Patriotism worrying?

Most of the threads on this site, particularly from the southern states such as Texas, to name but a few, seem to blindly accept whatever America does without question.
It honestly reminds me of German Nationalism immediately prior to World War II, particularly the whole flag waving culture that now seems to be embedded in America.

The fact that Bush came into power under the guise of a 'War Presiedent' even before Iraq etc terrifies me and has no place in a modern civilisation.

Anyway, this is not a 'Flame' on America. I hope some Americans can prove me wrong. Let's keep this civil, i'm just looking to be corrected.

Discuss!!

nice avatar! lol!

Yes im equally disturbed, i have family and aquaintences that ive come across only to realize they are blind patriots. They equate there faith in a God as permission to excersize violence through what religion has braiwashed people to believe, that God created government, that is a lie , fat stupid headed lie by rich manipulators. Yet they in their proper and self justified methods find ways to be oppressive and ignorant some more.

I admire American patriotism. Its a shame the UK is not of the same ilk.
Its because of the willingness of thge British Government to roll over to just about any minority, that we find ouselves one step away from the neck chopping sabres of Islam. Good on the USA and patrioism you have my full support.

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman


I've clearly bolded my post, for you to understand.

It's in English too. If there is any question please do not hesistate to ask me.

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
if Saddam was oppressive and gun ownership in Iraq was at full capacity, then the citizens should have overthrown him, as the pro gun lobby seems to beleive American gun ownership is for.

Does that clarify everything?

He was oppressive and that gun ownership in Iraq was at full capacity because the US government gave him the power to rule Iraq as a dictatorship and gave him all the weapons he ever needed, during George Bush Senior time. Weapons, war, blood, guns, missiles. all to kill people. All the weapons to make Saddam the more powerful.

For the US government then to fix the regime and fianlly take over the country of Iraq the ruthless way. George Bush does not care about Iraq.

What is your point anyway? What are you trying to prove to everyone here about Iraq or Saddam or America for that matter

[edit on 15-10-2008 by mind is the universe]

Lets say that there was 1 AK to every Iraqi household (which I doubt). Saddam randomly kidnapped people to torture and murder. Sometimes attempting genocide. Fear does strange things to people, it makes them subservant. Lets me put it this way.

A man beats a Pit Bull ruthlessly, denies him food and water when he disobeys all to train him to pit fight. Now this dog can easily attack and kill his owner but does not. Why? Because he relies on him to feed and water him. So he endures the treatment so that his owner does not deprive him of his food and water.

How about this explanation.

Plantations that owned slaves did not have to beat, hang, torture or rape every slave to gain obeidiance. They only had to make examples out of some of them to make break the others. Even though some plantations had a 10 to 1 slave to owner ratio, the slaves very rarely ever staged an uprising. The ones who did were severly tortured and that sent a message to the others that it would be hopeless to try and gain freedom.

Like I said, even though they may have the tools, they did not have the concept of hope to fight for themselves. They needed someone to humiliate the tyrant for them see any hope for a differant life. Granted the Iraqis who benefited from Saddam being in power dislike the fact that the US took away their means of income like the interrogators, kidnappers and the militia. They band together and recruit soldiers from differant countries and a few local citizens with the help of propaganda. These "soldiers" then randomly set IEDs to try and demoralize the Iraqi people and the US soldiers. They feed off people calling W a war criminal and are able to recruit more soldiers by saying that even the Americans say this war is a crime. So in reality the people who speak out against the war and then turn around and say they support the troops are really hurting them.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Originally posted by mind is the universe
reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

 

I've clearly bolded my post, for you to understand.

It's in English too. If there is any question please do not hesistate to ask me.

OK, what does 'The real world, and find out who the real sinister is'

doesn't even make sense, not even a sentence.

I never once said America was good, Iraqis bad. Re - read my posts. I don't argue with your point, think you might have missed mine.

reply to post by mind is the universe


What I was trying to prove is that a gun owning citizenship can not fight off a regime - as so many people in the thread have argued that is why Americans have guns - to fight off a despotic or tyrannical regime!
I don't disagree with what you have said.

reply to post by jd140


The point is that a gun owning citizenship, be it US or Iraq, can't fight off an oppressive regime, like so many people in this thread have argued that this is why citizens should be armed. It didn;t help the Iraqis, it wont help Americans.

reply to post by mastermind77


You make a good point about 'God' being intertwined in Patriotism. Particularly with the Bush government. Didn't even want to bring that into this but....

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
reply to post by mind is the universe

 

What I was trying to prove is that a gun owning citizenship can not fight off a regime - as so many people in the thread have argued that is why Americans have guns - to fight off a despotic or tyrannical regime!
I don't disagree with what you have said.

Why couldn't we? We did it during the American Revolution. The only differance is that the weapons are bigger and badder. Oh and the British was better armed, trained and supplied then the revolutianist were and we still fought them off.

reply to post by jd140


300 years ago maybe. Weapons have changed now.
Foreign and domestic armies will be better equiped than citizens

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
reply to post by jd140

 

The point is that a gun owning citizenship, be it US or Iraq, can't fight off an oppressive regime, like so many people in this thread have argued that this is why citizens should be armed. It didn;t help the Iraqis, it wont help Americans.

America isn't a oppressive regime yet. What do you think would happen if their was a law passed that stated it would be illegal to bear arms? Taking away your right to defend yourself would be the first step in making a Democracy into a Dictatorship. Of course if the law would come to pass it would be under the pretense that it was for our own good, kind of how your arguement is stating. Americans are strong willed and would not let that happen as long as they have the means to do something about it. How easy would it be for the government if the citizens were unarmed?