How advanced is the Chinese army?

They have already begun:

Shu Quan Sheng, 68, may be a naturalized American citizen, but his heart still seems to be in his motherland. The Virginia based physicist pleaded guilty on Monday to charges of exporting space launch data and defence services to China.

AllVoices

Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

I wonder if the US has a big disinfo operation against the chinese? Just think if they had planted people that sold the chinese fake data, intel etc... technical plans that look good until you try to actually build it etc...

If you go to "GlobalSecurity"/ Fas.org and those type of sites you'll see what they have, and they are far BEHIND Russia/U.S.

1) There is no single international force on this plane that can even breach chinese defenses on the most of its eastern coastline, let alone occupy.

2)There is no single international force on this planet that can hope to successfully occupy any portion of China for more than a week or two.

3)China's current weak spots are: (a) Military presence in the Tibetan Autonomous region (b) Military presence along the western borders of Xinjiang (c) no real direct influence over most of its vital supply chain path for energy etc. (d) Inability to project continued military power more than 500-1000km off its borders (e)China has had no recent experience in any live warfare and has very limited integrated/coalition ops and/or exercise experience.

Now China's aggressively dealing with fixing (a), (b), (c) and (d) since the early 90s. It has made great progress on (a),(b) and (c) while (d) is still a work in progress.
Now for (e) you cannot really go a pick fights with others just to stay in touch! So one needs to conduct exercises dissimilar forces with others as regularly as possible. China has not done that until recently. Exercises with the SCO/Russia are a start but they really need to look further. That may be tough in the vicinity because besides the SCO, Burma and Pakistan, nobody's really quite friendly with them.
There are a few exercises planned with India, but these are more tension diffusers and CBMs rather than true operational integration opportunities. Plus these exercises will mostly happen in Mainland China.

IMO China needs to look further out. The ME may not be a good idea right now but those rogue sub Saharan nations look promising. I do know that some Chinese activity is present there, but the true military nature of those activities is unknown to me.

Certain countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia etc. are very promising areas too. Stationing forces that far out and/or conducting military exercises that far out will give a true measure of opertional readiness and sustainability of the PLA so far from home. I'm sure they will learn a lot from these experiences.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
1) There is no single international force on this plane that can even breach chinese defenses on the most of its eastern coastline, let alone occupy.

2)There is no single international force on this planet that can hope to successfully occupy any portion of China for more than a week or two.

3)China's current weak spots are: (a) Military presence in the Tibetan Autonomous region (b) Military presence along the western borders of Xinjiang (c) no real direct influence over most of its vital supply chain path for energy etc. (d) Inability to project continued military power more than 500-1000km off its borders (e)China has had no recent experience in any live warfare and has very limited integrated/coalition ops and/or exercise experience.

Now China's aggressively dealing with fixing (a), (b), (c) and (d) since the early 90s. It has made great progress on (a),(b) and (c) while (d) is still a work in progress.
Now for (e) you cannot really go a pick fights with others just to stay in touch!

So one needs to conduct exercises dissimilar forces with others as regularly as possible. China has not done that until recently. Exercises with the SCO/Russia are a start but they really need to look further. That may be tough in the vicinity because besides the SCO, Burma and Pakistan, nobody's really quite friendly with them.
There are a few exercises planned with India, but these are more tension diffusers and CBMs rather than true operational integration opportunities. Plus these exercises will mostly happen in Mainland China.

IMO China needs to look further out. The ME may not be a good idea right now but those rogue sub Saharan nations look promising. I do know that some Chinese activity is present there, but the true military nature of those activities is unknown to me.

Certain countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia etc. are very promising areas too. Stationing forces that far out and/or conducting military exercises that far out will give a true measure of opertional readiness and sustainability of the PLA so far from home. I'm sure they will learn a lot from these experiences.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

Why do people make it seem so complexed, China does not have good SAMs in massive amounts, and thier airforce is small when it comes to upgraded or new planes with PESA/AESA radar, thier ALCM/CM have not been tested or info released on how good it is, so China outside of nukes is not difficult to concer.

Originally posted by 121200
Why do people make it seem so complexed, China does not have good SAMs in massive amounts, and thier airforce is small when it comes to upgraded or new planes with PESA/AESA radar, thier ALCM/CM have not been tested or info released on how good it is, so China outside of nukes is not difficult to concer.

Because maybe is it a little complicated sir.

Chinese airspace if one of the best defended (esp in the Eastern and South Eastern sectors) in the WORLD.

S-300:- The cream of their long range air defence..

By the end of 2008, the PLAAF will be operating a total of 160 S-300 launchers grouped into 10 SAM battalions (40 batteries). These launchers include 32 S-300PMUs, 64 S-300PMU1s, and 64 S-300PMU2s. Each launcher is equipped with four ready-to-launch missiles and 4~8 spare missiles. If taking additional spare and practice missiles purchased from Russia into account, the total number of missiles received by the PLAAF has amounted well above 1,000.

Source

Here's a macroscopic overview : www.sinodefence.com...

Upgraded planes??! What are you saying?! You mean 4th Gen? they have ~ 400 a/c capable of air sup. and are multi role. Another 300 capable of BVR engagement and so suited for air defense.

As for AESA/PESA; well they do not have AESA as of now, and no AF in the world has large majorities of its operational a/c AESA-ready as well. So if a war were to break out tomorrow, AESA would NOT figure as a capability in ANY side.

ALCM/CM not tested? What does mean?!! Of course they're tested.. they would not be operational otherwise!

Please do not try to simplify this with generic subjective statements!!
Facts, numbers, statistics.. The only way to prove your point..

China does not think in the terms of time the way we do.

They're not in any hurry and patience is on their side.

At this point in time, they wouldn't have to so much as light a firecracker
to destroy us economically.

Thanks to social ignorance, massive corruption, deception and greed, we're already doing a pretty good job of self destructing on our own.

China has it's own share of problems too and as more of their people want more for themselves, their system of government is sure to fail as a new generation of free thinkers comes to power.

The future all depends on advancements in energy and the essentials of life like food and water.

They probably have military technology like ours but not as good.


China is notorious for bootlegging and copying everything. From electronics to cars. Usually what their copies aren't as good as the original.
They love stealing ideas from others. Example: They launched a massive cyber attack on our government just the other day. Read it in the news and thought, "well, there they go again stealing from other countries like usual".
Examples:
Chinese copying F-16

Hummer H1

Stealing from NASA

Stealing from the Government

Stealing from Auto Manufacturers

Stealing from electronics manufacturers

Stealing from Russia(don't mind that really)

Stealing from Trademarked companies

Don't mean to offend any (chinese) here on the Forum, but I look at China as an imitation country. Everything they do in my eyes is fake.
Sorry for the Rant. I just hate when people are unoriginal and steal from others.





[edit on 11/22/2008 by Andre Neves]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by 121200
Why do people make it seem so complexed, China does not have good SAMs in massive amounts, and thier airforce is small when it comes to upgraded or new planes with PESA/AESA radar, thier ALCM/CM have not been tested or info released on how good it is, so China outside of nukes is not difficult to concer.

Because maybe is it a little complicated sir.

Chinese airspace if one of the best defended (esp in the Eastern and South Eastern sectors) in the WORLD.

S-300:- The cream of their long range air defence..

By the end of 2008, the PLAAF will be operating a total of 160 S-300 launchers grouped into 10 SAM battalions (40 batteries). These launchers include 32 S-300PMUs, 64 S-300PMU1s, and 64 S-300PMU2s. Each launcher is equipped with four ready-to-launch missiles and 4~8 spare missiles. If taking additional spare and practice missiles purchased from Russia into account, the total number of missiles received by the PLAAF has amounted well above 1,000.

Source

Here's a macroscopic overview : www.sinodefence.com...

Upgraded planes??! What are you saying?! You mean 4th Gen? they have ~ 400 a/c capable of air sup. and are multi role. Another 300 capable of BVR engagement and so suited for air defense.

As for AESA/PESA; well they do not have AESA as of now, and no AF in the world has large majorities of its operational a/c AESA-ready as well. So if a war were to break out tomorrow, AESA would NOT figure as a capability in ANY side.

ALCM/CM not tested? What does mean?!! Of course they're tested.. they would not be operational otherwise!

Please do not try to simplify this with generic subjective statements!!
Facts, numbers, statistics.. The only way to prove your point..

They don't have 400 Su-30MKK's, thier J-10's are thier own designs so I 'm not going to concider that good, knowing thier past of producing not good stuff, like avionics, (why do you think they buy from Russia.)
Agian thier ALCM are old stuff the new stuff is in small numbers, unless they went and bought 3000 Clum missile from Rus, then I'll be impresssed, and the west would be in trouble.

Seriously enough of the western propeganda rubbish.

Firstly, for all you so ignorant or deluded as to Chinas capabilities, just look west to Russia, all the hardware Russia has, China also has and is free to buy as much as it needs from Russia.

Secondly, ever heard of the SCO? If not I prove my point on your ignorance. The SCO makes up over 25% the worlds land mass betweent the member states. You saying if the USA, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan was to launch any sort of attack against China, the SCO would sit on the sidelines? Hell no, so that automatically throws Russia into Chinas defences. Just those two nations combined could topple any western coalition, but add in Kazakstan, Uzbekistan and many of the other member nations armies, you have an true global super power capable of taking on the UN, Nato and the US at the same time! (I am sure this is the line that are being drawn for ww3, although many nations are not set in stone which side they will fight on, Germany being one of the 50/50 nations).

Finally, for all those who are still in lala land, carrier groups are relics (anti ship torpedos which the US has no defence against and hypersonic missiles have them bested at a fraction of the cost), air dominance is not possible over China or Russia (sam, s-400, tor m1 etc, the list goes on, a true air shield if there ever was).
The only kind of war that can be fought against China will be a land war or an sustained cruise missile assault (which will not last long before China deploys ICBM's to target mainland USA with Conventional/Chemical/Biological warheads). With no air support any land war will result in massive losses for the US and any allies.

Now feel free to flame about the US and its dominance being unchallengable by anyone but god etc. When the poo hits the fan, you will quickly wake up and realise what your in for is no picnic.

Originally posted by 121200
They don't have 400 Su-30MKK's, thier J-10's are thier own designs so I 'm not going to concider that good, knowing thier past of producing not good stuff, like avionics, (why do you think they buy from Russia.)
Agian thier ALCM are old stuff the new stuff is in small numbers, unless they went and bought 3000 Clum missile from Rus, then I'll be impresssed, and the west would be in trouble.

No they don't; Su-30MKK is NOT the ONLY 4th Gen a/c outside of the west!
They have Su27s, J-11s, J-8IIs and J-10s in addtion to their Su-30MKKs. So either ways you look at it, the have considerable amounts of 4th Gen a/c.
Why do you even consider the Su-30MKK as good? It has not been in any live combat EVER!! So no real proof there on how 'good' it is by your standards of measure..

You know what.. you believe what you want to.. Words like 'good', and 'old/new stuff' don't make much 'good' (lol pun) for constructive conversations.

Originally posted by Saf85
Seriously enough of the western propeganda rubbish.



Secondly, ever heard of the SCO? If not I prove my point on your ignorance. The SCO makes up over 25% the worlds land mass betweent the member states. You saying if the USA, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan was to launch any sort of attack against China, the SCO would sit on the sidelines? Hell no, so that automatically throws Russia into Chinas defences. Just those two nations combined could topple any western coalition, but add in Kazakstan, Uzbekistan and many of the other member nations armies, you have an true global super power capable of taking on the UN, Nato and the US at the same time! (I am sure this is the line that are being drawn for ww3, although many nations are not set in stone which side they will fight on, Germany being one of the 50/50 nations).

Well first ofF Never said SCO, I'm talking about US vs. China.

Finally, for all those who are still in lala land, carrier groups are relics (anti ship torpedos which the US has no defence against and hypersonic missiles have them bested at a fraction of the cost), air dominance is not possible over China or Russia (sam, s-400, tor m1 etc, the list goes on, a true air shield if there ever was).
The only kind of war that can be fought against China will be a land war or an sustained cruise missile assault (which will not last long before China deploys ICBM's to target mainland USA with Conventional/Chemical/Biological warheads). With no air support any land war will result in massive losses for the US and any allies.

I can tell you don't know what your saying but assuming many things, China doesn't have S-400's just 64 S-300PMU-1/2 batteries, with less than 500 missiles, and thier ICBM fleets are less than 250, the U.S. has more than enough cruise missiles and nukes to over whealm China, go to globalsecurity, and other sites to look at the hardware, of China/U.S.,
Thirdly, I'm not a U.S. military fan, I believe Rus's mil is more powerful.
If China was just as advanced how come it would take to long for them to build thier own Navalised J-10's to the point they are going to have to but Su-33's from Russia? www.flightglobal.com...


[edit on 25-11-2008 by 121200]

reply to post by 121200


Hmm see how you dodge the bullet on the SCO, anyone thinking rationally would realise, there would be no China vs USA only scenario as long as the SCO exists. It would be on par with thinking any NATO member being attacked, would be X NATO member against X invadeing nation, while the other NATO members look on.

Now as for the air shield, sure publicly china only has s-300 (which tbh is still enough to obliterate a raptor or a squadron of them), but unofficialy, they more than likely have s-400, not to mention Chinas nack at cloneing technology it gets its hands on. For all we know China has replicated the s-300/s-400, mass produced it and established an air shield around key towns/cities, military bases, key infastructure etc. Only no one knows about it due to tigh secrecy of the government and because China does not blow its own trumpet like most of the west likes to. Either way you really that naive to belive China only has 500 rounds of ammo for the most advanced air shield weaponry on the planet?

Why does China need to develop its own Aircraft? As far as I can tell, Russia is focused on the aircraft, air defence, armour and missile systems in the allience, while China is focusing on Russias main hole in the armed forces, the navy, not to mention their electronic warfare, anti satellite sytems (lasers and missiles). Combine both nations and you have a complete modern army to be reckond with, not only that, but their numbers make for the biggest army in modern history. Also like I said, China is free to buy as much weapons tech they need, in a time of war the aquisition and deployment of said hardware will be fast tracked, so even if China was lacking any of the needed defences, they will have them in a time of need pretty damn fast (along with the SCO military might to back them up).

Finally, 250 icbm's is more than enough to carpet bomb the entire USA (and once again, there is more stockpiled than they let on), but just incase your in lala land again, Russia has thousands of them stockpiled.

Originally posted by Saf85
reply to post by 121200

 

Hmm see how you dodge the bullet on the SCO, anyone thinking rationally would realise, there would be no China vs USA only scenario as long as the SCO exists. It would be on par with thinking any NATO member being attacked, would be X NATO member against X invadeing nation, while the other NATO members look on.

If you bothered reading my first post til my last, you'd have noticed I was talking about China by it's self vs. U.S.A. just like the thread is about China, NOT SCO, (you stupid baffoon!!)

Now as for the air shield, sure publicly china only has s-300 (which tbh is still enough to obliterate a raptor or a squadron of them), but unofficialy, they more than likely have s-400, not to mention Chinas nack at cloneing technology it gets its hands on. For all we know China has replicated the s-300/s-400, mass produced it and established an air shield around key towns/cities, military bases, key infastructure etc. Only no one knows about it due to tigh secrecy of the government and because China does not blow its own trumpet like most of the west likes to. Either way you really that naive to belive China only has 500 rounds of ammo for the most advanced air shield weaponry on the planet?

Were not going to talk about what if's this and what if's that, we'll talk about "Officially" released info, which shows China has 64 S-300PMU-1/2 batteries, and there is only 2 S-300PMU-3 AKA(S-400) in Russia and so far NONE have been sold.

Why does China need to develop its own Aircraft? As far as I can tell, Russia is focused on the aircraft, air defence, armour and missile systems in the allience, while China is focusing on Russias main hole in the armed forces, the navy, not to mention their electronic warfare, anti satellite sytems (lasers and missiles). Combine both nations and you have a complete modern army to be reckond with, not only that, but their numbers make for the biggest army in modern history. Also like I said, China is free to buy as much weapons tech they need, in a time of war the aquisition and deployment of said hardware will be fast tracked, so even if China was lacking any of the needed defences, they will have them in a time of need pretty damn fast (along with the SCO military might to back them up).

Thats was a small example I was showing to show just how far China is behind U.S.A. if it ever wanted to go "head-up" against U.S.A. by it's' self, with more than 100+ F-22's and 230+ F-15 C/E and 350-400 F-16's I don't think China can afford to go up against U.S.A. right now, BTW 64 S-300 batteries with no more than 500/1000 missiles will not be stopping U.S.A. because the U.S. could send in 500/1000 drowns to make China waste thier missiles on them, and THEN send in the F-22's.

Finally, 250 icbm's is more than enough to carpet bomb the entire USA (and once again, there is more stockpiled than they let on), but just incase your in lala land again, Russia has thousands of them stockpiled. As I said before I think Russia is more powerful than U.S.A. in everything exept Navy, if you bothered to read my last post.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by 121200]

Originally posted by rogue1



I guess your flat screen TV is crap ( if you can;t afford a good one ) because they are all made in China, as with Laptops and PC's, smart phones, routers - the list goe on and on.

.

Few of the major chipset manufacturers have fabrication facilities in China. Intel only has one , AMD actively refuted rumors of even THINKING about building a facility in china. Texas instruments Has one and No doubt ATI, Nvidia, VIA have had chips manufactured there at one point.

However this does not mean that they are developing new technologies using these facilities. All of these companies' R&D is Largely done in america. And that does not mean they have the resources or the brains to do so. For the most part all of the really advanced designs and technologies are locked away in highly secure corporate and government labs. They keep them secret for commercial reasons and to a lesser extent for military reasons. If china has anything on par with current KNOWN technology chances are we already have a facility hidden in either plain view or in some government lab that is just a flick of the switch away to producing more advanced technology. They only see what we allow them to see.

All that aside all though they very well may have hidden technologies on par with our current technology and in some cases may have better technology. I guess it is kind of stupid for me to say they may not be smart enough to do so, I just doubt they do considering we have always had an edge on them as far technology goes.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by DeathShield]

]

Originally posted by rogue1
Give me a break, you obviously know nothing about what China can and can't do

The leaps in commercial technology alone ( where a large part is made in China ) automatically put China's tech within 15 years of the YS. The US isnn't the world defeating high tech country the ignorant seem to think it is.

Much of that commercial technology was acquired through copying western industrial secrets. It's a national law, a foreign company in China must share all of its trade secrets.

I would never want to see a war go down with china, this is a brand new age. no need for men and vehicles, with only one push of a button-thousand of nukes will leave the main land of the people republic of china and with a furry of a hundred suns will land in each modern city of the U.S. its is no secret that china does have nukes, and yes they are intercontinental rang capable!

There will be no war between the two countries as long as the US stays away from Taiwan.