Iraq War Vet Speaks out on 9/11 and orders given to kill civilians on sight

Originally posted by pinch

This was the biggest, most absolute purest concentrated bunch of BS I have seen in a very, very, very long time. I can't begin to number the "statements" this complete loser made where the BS flag would be not just thrown, but hurled. Shoot everybody? Every large apartment building in Baghdad is destroyed? Fire artillery into downtown Najaf?

Bulls*it. Pure and simple. If you folks want to believe this crap, go right ahead, but you are being taken for one of Lenin's "useful idiots".

It is actually kind of funny because the first time that I saw this video, I thought he might be a fake vet too. Before I went shooting my mouth off though, I looked him up. I guess now it is either your turn to either eat your words, back up your claim, or...and I bet you go with this one - just do not come back to this thread to spread unfounded hate for no reason.

Perhaps people like pinch feel it would be unpatriotic or in bad taste to say that out troops just might be doing bad things. Well, if our troops are ordered to do bad things, then noone is blaming the troops. If troops DO CHOOSE to do bad things, then do you really want to pretend they are doing good in your name, all the while puttig themselves, their fellow soldiers, and America even further at risk by generating FOUNDED hatred against us? I think it is a far more grave injustice to these men and women to let bad apples put targets on their heads or to let them be ordered to just hurt innocent people, knowing full well the repurcussions that will be spread among the rest of the country. Perhaps Pinch would like to tell us these men are fake soldiers too.

You see, I can go on and on but I would rather not. Pinch, please explain all these 'fake' soldiers. I am not trying to denegrate our troops or dismiss their sacrifice but....any of the men and women that are over seas representing us in these ways, are disgracing this country and their uniform and their fellow soldiers. The fact is, bad things are happening there IN our name. Bad things that put bigger targets on these soldiers heads. Imagine you are a good Iraqui citizen and you see these troops come into your streets and do these things. Think it might be a little easier to recruit you to do harm against them? That is the point.



[edit on 10/8/08 by MorningStar8741]

reply to post by MorningStar8741


MorningStar 8741

Thank you

Originally posted by MorningStar8741

Pinch, please explain all these 'fake' soldiers.

Are you serious? “Please explain all these fake soldiers”? I can’t *explain* them because I have no idea what possesses such a cold, hate-filled heart to say the things they say.

As far as whether they *exist* or not, history is rife with these *fake* soldiers – fake in terms of their service, what they did, what they claim, whatever.

Start with John Kerry (“I was on the border of Cambodia at Christmas. It is seared…*seared* in my memory") and his “Winter Soldier” accusations. BS. Not to mention his “embellished” service record – one that he never did release in 2004 or since.

His buddy Al Hubbard was right there, right next to him, parroting the same BS.

Don’t forget our old friend Jesse Macbeth.

Don’t forget TNR’s Scott Beauchamp/Scott Thomas and the fictional events he created to sell a book he had planned.

Don’t forget Aidan Delgado and now-proven as BS accusations.

Don’t forget Richard David McClanahan – currently serving 34 months in federal prison for lying about his service.

How about that cruel hoax back in 2005 in which a man wearing a US Army dress uniform falsely told the wife of a soldier her husband had been killed in Iraq? Perhaps it was one of Anderson’s or Jesse’s pals?

There’s always Tom Harkin, who flew aircraft on ferry flights between Japan and The PI during the Vietnam War and had claimed he had “battled MiGs in the skies over North Vietnam” until called on that BS by Barry Goldwater.



I could keep going, but you get the idea. Again, history is replete with these poseurs, and I have no doubt I could find the same type losers in the armies of Thucydides or Leonitas or on the Plains of Abraham or Yorktown or Flander’s Field.

Does this mean atrocities and exceptions to the rule never happen? No! But they are just that - *exceptions*. US and allied rules of engagement are explicit and stringent and concrete with regards to holding/checking fire if there are civilians present. Go read this blog post on what happens when insurgents are chased through a crowded marketplace..

Does this mean these fakes never served? Of course not! Cowards have donned uniforms since the beginning of organized armies. Anderson and Macbeth and Delgado and their friends and pals are no different. The reassuring thing is that these fakes are very few and very far between.

As far as Anderson is concerned, I could care less if the guy has a purple heart. John Kerry wrote one for himself when he fired a grenade too close to a pile of rocks and was injured by ricocheting shrapnel.

What your little buddy Anderson is saying is pure unadulterated crap.

Recently I was invited to participate in a BBC radio discussion on if the killing of civilians in wartime was ever justified. Of course it isn’t….but it happens! Protecting civilians is in truth the genesis of the Geneva Conventions and the foundation of the Law of Armed Conflict – both institutions and documents were created to protect civilian population in times of war. The vast, vast majority of international callers to this BBC radio program agreed that nobody – let me say that again - *nobody* - does more to avoid collateral damage and the harming of civilians than US and allied forces. Nobody. You can go ahead and champion your little buddy Anderson, but what he is accusing the rest of the US armed forces of doing is a lie. Pure and simple.

Oh, and before you go off on a "Why didn't YOU sign up!" rant, I'm in the process of retiring from 24 years of active and reserve navy service, including a voluntary recall to the OIF AOR in the summer of 2003.



[edit on 8-10-2008 by pinch]

Originally posted by pinch


Oh, and before you go off on a "Why didn't YOU sign up!" rant, I'm in the process of retiring from 24 years of active and reserve navy service, including a voluntary recall to the OIF AOR in the summer of 2003.



[edit on 8-10-2008 by pinch]

I do not recall ever saying that or hinting to that, but then again, you seem to have completely lost touch here. The point is that soldiers are doing bad things in Iraq. You claimed this soldier that was saying these things was "fake." You were asked to back that up and you failed. It was shown that he was indeed a real soldier. To back up what he was saying, I posted videos of footage of soldiers doing exactly what he said. Now, you can rant and rave all you like about whatever cruel hoaxes you like. The things you mention are despicable at best, however what do they have to do with this thread or my point or that of the OP? You cannot pretend these things are not happening by talking about other people doing other bad things. Two wrongs do NOT make a right do they? No. You called this soldier a fake. I showed you that what he says is real whether he is or not, and he is. You can list pages of off topic stories of people doing bad things in the name of real soldiers. That does nothing to back up you calling this man a fake. That does nothing to fix what is happening in my name and your name. That does nothing to help.

The fact that you claim to be an ex-millitary and your response to this is to simply point out some stories about people disgracing soldiers? I would think that you would be more upset that people are behaving in such ways and sullying the good name I am sure you worked hard to protect during your service. Maybe it is just me but if I were to see psychos being allowed to run around in MY uniform and make me look bad, first I would want to stop them, then I could worry about what John Kerry did 30 years ago.

reply to post by pinch


I will make it simple for you. You called the man fake. You failed to back it up. Just in case you still wanted to doubt, I was illustrating that what he was saying was very true. Got it?

reply to post by MorningStar8741


I will make it simple to YOU.

Anderson doesn't need to be "proven" fake - he has done it himself by making these wild-ass accusations that are not backed up by even the smallest of facts.

There is a rich tapestry of such people making false accusations against the government and military all throughout time. THAT is what I was pointing out. Anderson and his ilk are nothing new, not news, not exceptional, not special, not anything. There has been slime in every war and every army and every military organization since the dawn of time, and he and those like him are no different.

The kicker in this thing, the absolute key that makes all this stuff shine radioactively with BS, is that the WORLD media isn't even making these claims. Iraq and to a slightly lesser extent Afghanistan are without a doubt history's more covered and digital war. With however many hundreds or thousands of cameras in the country, from news organizations to blog to whatever, reporters, freelance, anchors, everything, not a one has come out with accusations even *remotely* close to what has come out of the liars Macbeth, Delgado and now Anderson.

Do you have any idea what sort of conspiracy would have to be going on between the world's news organizations to sit on these things if indeed they were true? Don't you think someone....someone... would have blown the whistle, some news org from North Korea or Venezuela or Russia or Iran or anywhere! Al Jezeera or CBS or NBC or ABC! Olbermann, for God's sake would be all OVER this! He's not and they aren't. Its a non-story. Suckered you in, though, sure looks like.

But go ahead...hitch your wagon to Anderson and these lies if you like. Knock yourself out. All you've done is displayed your gullibility to be hoodwinked and played for a fool by sensational garbage and lies.

reply to post by pinch


Wow. You must live in an amazing little world. This is the most covered war? That man is still a liar????? Did you not see the videos that I posted? Do you think someone made those up? Have you not read the reports of soldiers in Iraq being convicted for murder and torture?

Apparently I missed something because I have to dig to see coverage of this war. It is not on tv, it is barely discussed on radio, and is almost nothing in the paper. This war is so hidden from the public and the press that it is insane. Where are you getting all of this great coverage? You need to share.

The fact is, the above videos prove what this man says.

The fact is soldiers have been convicted of comitting crimes against Iraqui people.

You still think he is a liar then the videos must be fake and some soldiers need your help expunging their record. Please please show me how these fake videos were made and lets go free those soldiers.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


I just watched the 4 videos you link above and I am greatly saddened.

While there are many American GIs who are not noble in their ways, there are some, who get up in the morning, and put their pants on one leg at a time.

In their heart they hope that their efforts are creating a greater good, trusting in the leadership that has placed them there.

But when I see American soldiers practicing arrogant, and random acts of cruelty and vulgarity against innocent children, and another mans livestock, what am I to think?

Peace


[edit on 8-10-2008 by HIFIGUY]

I don't find much to support that US forces go to such extremes to limit collateral damage or civilian casualties. Except what they do to make it look good on paper, or when the media is watching. And since the initial push into Baghdad you really don't see much coverage of what goes on there at all on a day to day basis.

In fact:

an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.

Reality checks: some responses to the latest Lancet estimates

We can go 'round and 'round arguing if this invasion was necessary or not, but it is becoming clear that fundamental policies need to be changed. Whatever we might have done to destroy the 'terrorist' (that the CIA created to fight the Russians years ago and then abandoned), is now being outweighed by the hate we are creating toward us which is causing an increase in people wanting to do harm to us.

There have been a few threads discussing whether or not Military forces would rise up against US civilians if the proverbial SHTF and the government enacted martial law for whatever reason. But after his video, I think a much more important question is: will the civilians stand up for the military solders that are trying to protect its citizens and do the right thing.

Something to think about.

reply to post by pinch


Pinch,

It has been bothering me all day long that you felt so strongly that you had to tell me that you were a member of the armed forces in response to a taunt that I would never use. I decided to call you out. You are the 'fake' soldier.

Let's run down the facts.

You called the soldier in the OP fake.

You were shown that he was indeed a soldier.

You then called him a liar.

I showed you footage of soldiers doing just what he said. From making kids run to exhaustion for a bottle of water to shooting at random INNOCENT civillians.

Your response was to again call these stories lies.

When you look at the footage, what do you see?

Men and women in uniform creating hatred against men and women in that uniform.

Men and women in uniform shooting at innocent people for fun.

This makes innocent people hate us.

This gives our enemies justification.

This emboldens anyone who hates us and helps create hate in those who did not.

This makes our men and women over seas LESS safe.

This sullies the U.S. Millitary's good name and the country's as well.

This makes you and me look very very very bad as well as handing justification to people that kill our men and women.

These are the actions that help a farmer decide to blow himself up in a crowd to take out as many of these jerks as possible. They all wear the same uniform, so they must all be the same.

So when faced with the reality that some bad people are doing bad things in the name of the United States millitary, which you claim to proudly serve, instead of being upset or disgusted by what you see, instead of denouncing those actions and the people doing them, you pretend they are not there.

So you would rather lower recruiting standards and a misguided war allow men and women to go out in our country's name and piss off more people, create more terrorists, and endanger the lives of ever more Americans than admit that something very wrong is really happening?

That does not seem very admirable.

Originally posted by toepick
I don't find much to support that US forces go to such extremes to limit collateral damage or civilian casualties.

Of course not. I wouldn't expect anyone who comments favorably on the topic of this thread to agree that US and allied forces go to the most extreme lengths to avoid civilian damage and casualties or honor the Geneva Conventions (as a broad rule) and adhere to the law of armed conflict. Those of us who have been there, though, know better and as such can throw the BS flag on frauds and fakes like Anderson and Macbeth and his coterie with certain knowledge.

an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.

Reality checks: some responses to the latest Lancet estimates

That Lancet survey has long been debunked as extraordinarily out of whack and produced with extremely biased data. I'm not surprised in the least that you quoted it.

reply to post by pinch


Are you having trouble getting my videos to work? You speak as if they do not exsist or I did not post them. Stop saying this stuff is all lies and crap when you can SEE IT FROM THE SOLDIERS WHO FILMED IT.

Originally posted by pinch
Anderson doesn't need to be "proven" fake - he has done it himself by making these wild-ass accusations that are not backed up by even the smallest of facts.

pinch, you called the man a fake. Now, you're trying to weasle your way out of it.

It's plain and clear what your agenda is, here in this thread.

You've been caught out.

reply to post by pinch


Pinch thank you for your service.

Pinch, I am truly glad to have peoples point of view and also info they provide.
I wanted to apologize to you for posting the "mission accomplished" poster. I was taken back at first and reacted and I hope you can forgive me.

You sound very intelligent and seam to have a sincere care for what your presenting. All I ask of you is humility.

It humbles any normal person to have to deal with death. It shows us no matter what we think about anything, it can all be over in a blink.

We all deal with it different. Some get angry and want to know why. Some don't deal with it externally and tear themselves up. Some mourn, but all experience it.

I don't want to believe propaganda anymore then you want me too, but the fact is Tax money is being spent, 1000's of people are dead, and there has been a bad guy since the beginning of time.

People are fed up with it.

Let's share like you have been doing. You at least post information, which is more then half with "claims" do, so you have my respect.

If anything, what makes it hard to share is when we are name calling and badgering. None of us should be doing that. It derails 80% of the threads here and gets us no where.

That's all I wanted to say

Peace

[edit on 8-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand


Let's share like you have been doing. You at least post information, which is more then half with "claims" do, so you have my respect.



Peace

Really? Where are the facts that he posted with his claim that the OP was referencing a fake soldier?

Where are the facts to back up calling them lies?
UT
See, everyong here has posted facts to back up what they said BUT Pinch so far. His insistance on calling things lies that WE HAVE POSTED THE FACTS OF has lost all the respect I could have had for him. I need to see these 'facts' to go with his claims that he deserves praise for. So far he seems to belong in one of those videos because if he can pretend they are not there, he is obviously indifferent to that kind of cruelty.



[edit on 10/8/08 by MorningStar8741]

reply to post by MorningStar8741


MorningStar8741...

You see my heart don't you. I, yourself and others have posted evidence that completely refutes what he has said. I have peace.

Like I said, he did post some info for his point of "fakes". How many people do you see "call people out" then back it up with nothing. Anyone who at least shows they tried, I will hear.

Honestly, people could call me what ever they wanted, but I just want to see us light each other up, not snuff each other out.

I thank you for your work and know I can count on you, how much better when we are all working together, how much stronger, how much smarter?

peace to you

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


I guess I just feel that what he offered was completely worthless. He called Anderson a fake. Then he backed that up by showing there had been other fakes. Noone was questioning that OTHER people have lied. He called the OP video a lie. He never showed any proof of that. He offered proof of a completely different point. He ignored my videos, called Anderson a fake soldier, also said there was NOTHING to back up what he said, after I posted the videos demonstrating exactly what he had said.

Sorry how I came at you but the comments Pinch made just really made it that much worse. Calls Anderson a liar and his claims a lie. To prove it he brings up completely different people who lied about different things. He is shown proof of what Anderson said and still calls it lies. He claims to be millitary or ex or whatever and yet has no problem ignoring what is in those videos? That just blows me away. I am sorry but I find it hard to be respectful or polite to that. Sure he backed up a claim, a claim he had to make since the one that actually applied to the thread fell apart on him right away. That is hardly reliable.

We all need to thank Oz for giving the original video the attention that it deserved. I do not want to have to post any more like the ones that I already did to drive the point home any further.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


The fact is you are right and the fact is he could say anything he wanted really. Truly the only facts of importance were researched and proven and that was to simply and peacefully, exhibit what we said with verifiable (to the best of our abilities being attached to a computer screen) evidence.

Your heart stands up and I respect that, even value it, but don't let his or anybody's comments (especially when you've got the puddin right in front of them) bother you. Honestly, the less you say after putting up credible evidence, the more people will see "foolish statements don't make up credible evidence".

I don't like seeing you flustered especially over something your right about....

Peace to you

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Thanks but I guess I just cannot help it here when I see people trade in circles and talk in conundrums. I see people all the time start an argument, get called on it, post proof of something else altogether and then get praised for proving what they said. I guess I just want them to stand up for the original statement they want the credit for and could not help but enter the room wearing. Know what I mean? Anyway, I just really hope people wake up and realize what is happening over there IN OUR NAME. What is happening to GOOD soldiers. What is happening to America. We just cannot ignore it.