Ireland - One of the 12 Lost Tribes of Israel?

I've seen some suggestions and theory's on this matter for quite some time, but thought it good to gravitate onto ATS as this is hardly even considered by mainstream historians.

Basically it is the theory that, prior and/or during the Assyrian conquest and enslavement of the Israelites in ancient times elements of the tribes managed to flee and settle in other parts of the West and East.
Now the tribe of Dan seems to make the most impact literally on this matter, with some saying that they settled in Greece and Ireland. Some even suggest they and other tribes founded Troy.
Now the evidence that I can point to is threefold:
Irelands ancient symbol is the harp, this also featured prominently in Jewish / Israelite culture.
The Dan were renowned for their seamanship, they are even documented as living in their beached vessels on the mediterranean coast.
During the course of their trading and exploring it is tantilising to suggest that they might have journeyed all the way around Spain, up and beyond to Ireland and Cornwall.
The third is that the ancient Cornish language is very similar to the Celtic spoken in Ireland.

bibleprobe.com...

Boy... those lost tribes are *everywhere*.

The thing that always gets me about the lost tribes theories is goven how carefully documented the rest of the story is, how could the tribes not record in their liturature or oral traditions that they were once a part of Israel? Did they intentionally try to distance themselves?

Yeah, it's really interesting, India, China even as far wide as Japan and the US there's a group claiming descent from the roving lost tribes.

Why do we always have to have "chosen" ones?

Can't we all be equal by birth to inherent value?

People have been fighting for so long to answer the question of who are the God's Chosen Ones.

Which God? Maybe that is the question. Twelve tribes, maybe each tribe came from a different constellation and that is why they say the war was already fought in heaven and won!

Just brainstorming around with this, I have been doing some research on the twelve tribes myself and I just don't see the point, unless their is an extraterrestrial connection............

did not realize the harp was the symbol for ireland ,,,, 4 leaf clover leprachorns but then was it not that ireland was part of wales??? would that not put a different "picuture" on things

Yeah, let's not let little things like genetics get in our way, huh?
Oh, or language for that matter!
Or, you know... culture.

Yeah, let's forget about all that

Genetically, the Irish are North European, primarily of Celtic and Norse descent, with some Germanic muddled in after England took over.

Linguistically, neither English (Germanic-Romance hybrid) nor Irish Gaelic are the least bit like ancient Hebrew. They're not even in the same superfamily (English and Gaelic are Indo-European, Hebrew and its relatives are Afro-Semitic).

Culturally? The "lost tribe" was without a doubt a monotheistic society dedicated to the hearth god that they'd already been worshiping for a few thousand years. The Irish however were polytheistic and, similar to the Scandinavians, had several separate "families" of gods. Saying they both used the harp is like pointing out that because the Japanese and the Ibo both have a banjo-like instrument, they must be descended from one another.

The Irish are Irish. The "Lost Tribe" probably just got absorbed into some other part of the Assyrian empire, or perhaps went back to Egypt.

reply to post by WatchRider


"Oh Danny boy, the shofar, the shofar is calling"

Couldn't resist, but you actually might have something there.

Peace

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Yeah, let's not let little things like genetics get in our way, huh?

Oh, or language for that matter!
Or, you know... culture.

Yeah, let's forget about all that

Genetically, the Irish are North European, primarily of Celtic and Norse descent, with some Germanic muddled in after England took over.

Linguistically, neither English (Germanic-Romance hybrid) nor Irish Gaelic are the least bit like ancient Hebrew. They're not even in the same superfamily (English and Gaelic are Indo-European, Hebrew and its relatives are Afro-Semitic).

Culturally? The "lost tribe" was without a doubt a monotheistic society dedicated to the hearth god that they'd already been worshiping for a few thousand years. The Irish however were polytheistic and, similar to the Scandinavians, had several separate "families" of gods. Saying they both used the harp is like pointing out that because the Japanese and the Ibo both have a banjo-like instrument, they must be descended from one another.

The Irish are Irish. The "Lost Tribe" probably just got absorbed into some other part of the Assyrian empire, or perhaps went back to Egypt.

Yes this is also probable and in history books! BUT, no-one here can ABSOLUTELY discount the lost tribe factor either.

reply to post by WatchRider


ATS needs a headslap emoticon.

Yes, they can. I just explained how they can, and have absolutely discounted the theory of whoever the Magical People Of The Week are as being the "lost tribe of Israel"

You can't fake genes. Language is almost as hard as genetics to fake. I know it's fun to rail against "the establishment" for its own sake, but really. This is how it works. The Irish are not Semitic people. They do not share the mtDNA or the Y Chromosome markers of any sort of Middle Eastern population. Gaelic is unrelated to Hebrew. There aren't even any loanwords.

Now I suppose you could explain this by claiming the Lost Tribe was a bunch of Gaelic-speaking white people to start with, but then shouldn't the thread's title go the other way around?

I am a new member here so i hope my following comment wont offend. But TheWalkingFox with respect your'e information on the Irish race in terms of there genetics is incorrect. The genetic map of Europe is as follows.. The extent of genetic variation is greater north to south than east to west.This maybe a result of the way Europe was colonized by modern Humans, ie. from the south in three successive waves of migration(45,000 years ago, where before there had only been Neanderthals, 17,000 years ago after the last Ice age and 10,000 years ago with the advent of farming techniques from the Middle East.

The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they were at one time a very small population preserving its genetic idiosyncrasies as it expanded.

The relative isolation of Italian genetics is probaly due to the ALPS . Providing a geographic barrier to the free and unhindered flow of population to and from Italy. Although, Hannibal, the Celtic and Germanic influence in north Italy and of course the expansion of the Roman empire would SEEM to contradict this.

Slavic genetic variation is quite large and overlaps with the Greek Romanian, hungarian ,Czech, Russian and even the Italian ones.

There is surprisingly little overlap between the northern and southern German populations, each of which has more in common with their other neighbours. Danish, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian in the northern case, Austrian, Swiss, French in the other.

The polish population is quite eccentric , only significantly overlapping with the Czech one(and only minimally with the northern German one).

The swiss population is entirely subsumed by the French one, similarly, the IRISH population almost does not show any characteristics that would distinguish it from the British one.

IRISH and British insularity probaly explains why so much of their genetics is not shared with their closest European cousins, ie. Norwegian Danish Dutch cluster..

This genetic map is the results of the DNA Ancestry Project. August 18 2008.

Some countrys and peoples like BASQUES and CATALAUNIANS have not been included yet as not enough extensive research has been done, or in other words NOT ENOUGH DNA HAS BEEN AVAILABE FROM THESE GROUPS.

In terms of the Germanic invasions of the BRITISH ISLES it seems to be only one of cultural and linguistic assimilation rather than genetic. However there is small exceptions in the case of North East England and the Orkney and Shetland isles off Scotland who share a close match to the Nordic block. What is strange in England especially is one would think that the english are more mixed than the irish welsh or scottish. But it seems the ANGLO SAXON and NORMAN invaders did not really mix with the CELTS genetically. But they only replaced a small priestly ruling class, so there conquest was more cultural and political than genetic. ENGLISH PEOPLE TODAY UNBEKNOWN TO THEM ARE REALLY GERMANIC SPEAKING CELTS NOT ANGLO SAXON. WHICH MAKES THE MONARCHY IN BRITAIN ALL THE MORE FOREIGN!!

I WONDER WHAT THE MONARCHY'S POLITICAL MOTIVES ARE HMMMM??
MAYBE THE WEALTHY BANKING FAMILIES OR SAUDI ROYALS COULD ENLIGHTEN US? OR MAYBE NOT,, i guess ILUMINATION is only for the PRIESTLY RULING CLASS.

If they were better looking, smarter, more ethical, more likeable, more musical, more talented, etc ... I MIGHT let you get away with suggesting (and only in jest mind) that 'Israel' might be one of the lost Tribes of Ireland.

But that's as FAR as I'll allow this nonsense to go.


The ancient Egyptians had RED hair and their language was a bastardised form of Welsh.

THAT should put things in perspective for you, OP.

PLUS, there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that the 'Bible Lands' AND Judaism, originated NOT in Palestine ... but in Saudi Arabia !

I mean .. look at the Celtic race ... and then look at the Khazarian 'tribes' of Israel.

No comparison.

The Irish and Celts generally were mental and spiritual GIANTS when the Khazars or even the 'jews' (just when did that term commence, incidentally) were still hanging from trees.

It's hard what to believe from these crazy websites. So let me give you a more accurate history lesson of the ancient IRISH before they reached IRELAND. In Ireland early waves of immigration from various but mainly related sources contributed to mix of Celtic Homogeneity. The early Celtic settlers were the inheritors of the INDO-EUROPEAN traditions already very ancient. Behind them lay the wholly obscure religions of neolithic agriculturists, underlying all were the beliefs and rites of the hunting people which could be 20,000 or more years long. Throughout recorded history a noticeable characteristic of the Irish has been a belief that the next world is more important than this one. At the same time a distinction has always been made between the two, thus ensuring that enjoyment in this life is enhanced, not diminished, by the promise of the next. This balance of spiritual and material (by no means exclusively Irish) is less common in western society dominated by materialism. So far as we can tell the IRISH CELTS were a people distinct in language and custom from their British and European counterparts. They had a well developed social order and a complex and a extensive legal system (BREHON LAW) purporting to govern all aspects of life and death. Contrary to popular opinion there is little evidense that they were an unusually militaristic race for their state of developement, but the warrior cult and code of honor were highly developed. Irish literature is apart from that of Greece and Rome and by far the oldest in Europe. In spite of her location ancient irish tales passed down through generations are closer to the tales of the mediterranean and central Eurasia than northern Europe and Scandinavia. All the mediterranean lands in ancient times were influenced by the east . There is constant reiteration in ancient irish tales of association and connection with the GREEKS and with the SCYTHIANS who inhabitated the UKRAINE and RUSSIAN steppe region not far from the then CELTIC heartland.

From as early as 1000 BC a race called the MILESIANS allegedly skilled mathematicians and philosophers, lived in IONA (part of modern TURKEY) having come there from MACEDONIA the region where the CELTIC heartland bordered SCYTHIA. According to HERODOTUS they had scythian connections and were HELLENES (that is non-greek but within the greek states) and spoke a distinct language of their own. According to Irish tradition MILESIUS the forebear of the IRISH MILESIANS was a SCYTHIAN who came with his people from SPAIN which he reached via EGYPT. The IONIAN MILESIANS were a strong independent people whom neither CROESUS the LYDIAN or CYRUS the PERSIAN exacted tribute when they overan the area. BOTH HERODOTUS and ZENOPHON mention the later MILESIANS as being good at commerce war and colonisation. The milesians lived in three cities in Iona, the chief of which was called MILETUS (south TURKEY). They represented a portion of the race only, the rest being nomads and settlers. It was the Milesian command of the seas that enabled them to survive when their neighbours were overwhelmed by the Lydians Medes and the Persians, and it was there command of the sea that enabled them to establish trading colonies in SICILY, SARDINIA ITALY and SPAIN and finally to reach IRELAND. Although like the MACEDONIANS the Milesians were HELLENIC they lived in ASIA and would have been familiar with if not influenced by the ASIATIC mystical beliefs. After the battle of MYCALE in which the confederated hellenic states defeated the invading armies of XERSES, the MILESIANS who had been under persian domination at the time approx 500 BC held a council and decided to abandon the coast to the persians and ship westward. The Book of Invasions tells us that the Milesians followed the Tuatha De Danaan to Ireland, and that the tuatha de danaan followed the Nemedians(allegedly Celts from north Spain) and the Firbolgs(from Greece) There are numerous references in Irish tradition to Scythia and Scythian relatives. While these references are held by some scholars to be exaggerated more scribes now hold that Celts and Scythians may have been related. There is no argument that they were neighbours in the Eurasian heartland . The GAELS (specific name for the Irish celts) arrived in Spain from Scythia and from there proceeded to Ireland. To 16th century compilers scythia may have meantr anywhere in Eastern Europe or the MIDDLE EAST. But it is an HISTORIC FACT!!! THAT THE GALATIANS OF ASIA MINOR (THE SAME GALATIANS FROM THE BIBLE!!) LIKE GAEL AND THE GALICIANS OF SPAIN RETAINED A CELTIC LANGUAGE DOWN TO THE 4TH CENTURY AD..

I have not looked at the website that makes these claims as usually they get their history mixed up with fantasy. What i have wrote below is from scholars i trust. The thing these old irish books like LEABHAR GHABLA and the Book of Invasions, some historians lke to claim that they are pseudo-historical or just plain mythological, yet peoples mentioned in these ancient books have all had settlements discovered around the caspian sea (Milesian Tuatha De danaan etc. Nowhere else in western or northern europe are these found except for Ireland and spain which to me is obvoius they arrived there via a southern route via the mediterranean via the EAST. Even the same spears where used by the ancient Irish the AEGEANS even the spear from goliath the Weaver's beam' right from early times up into the 17th century in Ireland. I dont know about the irish being one of the 12 tribes of israel, however the Tuatha De Danaan means people or tribe of Dana(a) in gaelic and there was an ASIATIC people called DANA according to Xenophon who who lhad settlements right alongside Scythians and Milesians around the Caspian. Reality is ancient Irish texts speak of these peoples inhabating ireland and wriiten stories is found of these in ireland all over Ireland.

I think we could have better luck finding the lost tribes of Israel by looking at the people NOT claiming to be the lost tribe.

Are we sure it's just 12? Seems to me with all the claims that maybe we missed a few...

The "Irish as a lost tribe of Israel" idea is a fairly modern one, deriving out of Irish nationalism in the 1800's. During this time period you also get the English as the "Lost Tribe" and several other candidates for the "Lost tribe." The whole list of claimants is listed in Wikipedia (and note that there's disagreement as to who got lost and when) :
en.wikipedia.org...

So... candidate or not? The evidence says "not."

The Jews are a very insular and closed culture. If they had gone into Ireland, they would have kept the Jewish traditions and Jewish deity (in the same way they kept Jewish traditions and the Jewish deity when they moved into Russia and into other areas.

The evidence used for the Irish claim boils down to this:

There is a theory that the Irish, or Insular Celts as a whole, are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes. Proponents of this theory state that there is evidence that the prophet Jeremiah came to Ireland with Princess Tea Tephi, a member of the Israelite royal family

Asked to show the evidence, they come up with some highly imaginitive stuff ("Tea Tephi" is not, in fact, a name from the Bible although it's claimed that this is Zedekiah's daughter's name. She is also described as a princess though Zedekiah is not a king.)

The Tea in Irish history is the daughter of Lughaidh. Do a little googling around and you'll begin to see how flimsy (mostly wistful thinking) the evidence is. A longish post on another board goes over most of this... and you can check the points at your leisure:
revival.aimoo.com...

You could make a reasonable case for the Lemba people, however, given the great number of cultural similarities.

It is all open, I'm on the fence, I would love to know what REALLY went on in those world-changing times. Where did the tribes wander to? Who led them and where did the Assyrians go? All mystery's.
So like I said before history is more of an open book than people think

As a jew and a bit of a scholar of my people... I must admit and say for a fact...

What we call jews, and the semetic blend of dna people associate with judaism has nothing at all to do with the makeup of the 12 Tribes...

Judaism has indeed and those who remained and ethnically usurped the religion entirely as it's own mixed with semetic blood lines, the racial tendency has nothing to do with who the Jews were from the time of exodous

The pharohs of Egypt were indeed Red haired and some Blond Haired people

Jacob had 12 sons by Two Wives and 2 Slave wives given to him by the sisters

The slaves would have been cannanite which I believe to be a darkerskined more semetic tribe of people, so there was a mix of ethnicity for before enslavement in Egypt

Joseph who was first improsoned in Egypt is said to have blended in with the Egyptians who we know had red blond hair, so... the liniage of Isreal was Initiallt Caucasian then mixed with semetic Cananites

Later when all of The isrealites were enslaved all 1 other brothers had taken various and mostly multiple wives from the region, the purests being Caucasian but slave wives could have been of any ethnicity in the region

That's 12 Borthers with different wives... if an average of 2 wives, one slave, one caucasian... you have 24 ethnic liniages

This is prior to enetering into Egypt where they were mixed with Egyptian slaves, which included Ethiopians, Very Likely Natives from South America as there is alot of evidence that The Pharohs had access to Coffee, Cocaine and Chocolate...

so what we have is 12 direct tribes that held together, but with sub groups rangeing from African to South American Indian and European slave genes in the mix

It is likely that, the 12 tribes represent, 12 different Ethnic populations when we consider all of this together

Looking at the Modern world we have only a few major Ethnic strains

African
Caucasian
Middle Eastern
Indian
Asian
Native American
Polynesian

It is likely the 12 tribes given Egypts range of trade and modern knowledge had ethnic similarities in some of the tribes to any of the above listed Modern Racial archtypes

Various tribes given the population leanings could have disseminated anywhere in the world

As an American jew I can assure when we wander, mostly we choose to intigrate

I am jewish, I barely practice my religion, my beliefs are influneced by Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism among others

I am Caucasian, Brown hair Blue Eyes

My children are pure Blond, Aryan by the Hitler physical description.

And within a generation there will be hardly any recognition of that in thier lives...that they are jewish, almost certainly they will not Marry jews, my wife takes them to church

They speak English, with no traces of any hebrew words in thier vocabularies... where as I can spoeak Hebrew comfortably

I married initially a Lutheran Woman and will almost certainly remary somoen else now that divorced and in tradition of my people lol, have children from... more than one ethnic group


You simply cannot assume anything in regards to genetics and the 12 Tribes

What you are really looking at is 12 racial variations here, each brother had different wives...

it is 100% possible and from my studies I am quite sure, the Tribe of Dan played a major role in the history of the Isles



[edit on 7-10-2008 by mopusvindictus]

no way dude. the lost tribe are the sicilians.