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only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven
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reply to post by doctorex
Officially, they consider themselves to be the only church, thus the name "catholic". They do not give the protestants the dignity of calling them churches, instead they call them "Christian communities".
Satan will never be totally defeated until all of his followers are dead. When that happens most of everyone will be dead too.
Look for the concept of Royalty to make a big comeback. That is the tool that the evil woman of Revelation gets its power from, the "Divine Right of Kings".
Also notice how she is described as being "drunk on the blood of the saints". Here is an example of how history is obscured: Remember all the Tutsis being massacred in Rwanda? Ever hear on the news that most of the ones that were killed were Seventh Day Adventists? Probably not.
[edit on 2-1-2009 by jmdewey60]
The Catholic church considers themselves the mother church, and one day her daughters will come back to her.
Officially, they consider themselves to be the only church, thus the name "catholic". They do not give the protestants the dignity of calling them churches, instead they call them "Christian communities".
Satan will never be totally defeated until all of his followers are dead. When that happens most of everyone will be dead too.
Look for the concept of Royalty to make a big comeback. That is the tool that the evil woman of Revelation gets its power from, the "Divine Right of Kings".
Also notice how she is described as being "drunk on the blood of the saints". Here is an example of how history is obscured: Remember all the Tutsis being massacred in Rwanda? Ever hear on the news that most of the ones that were killed were Seventh Day Adventists? Probably not.
[edit on 2-1-2009 by jmdewey60]
reply to post by jmdewey60
I know the basis of your beliefs from our past discussions and to be honest with you, the 7th Day Adventists are probably the only protestant church group that closely follows God's laws as they should be. I think DrX is concerned about the other doctrine the protestants carried away from catholicism.
Example: You believe in the 7th day sabbath but what about the annual sabbaths? They are all one in the same with the commandment of keeping the sabbath holy. There are 7 annual sabbaths and they revolve around God's Holy Days.
Do you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween/All-Saints Day, Valentines Day, St. Patricks Day? If so, they are all days created by the Catholics and originated in paganism and idolatry. The Word of God is adament about mixing pagan traditions with christian/jewish doctrine. (I'm not claiming you do these things or believe in them, just wondering if you do.)
Do you believe the body and soul separate after death? This is a post-apostolic innovation by influence of the greek philosophers and adopted by the catholics. The 1st century church still believed that you remain dead until the return of Christ.
Do you believe in the trinity? The bible never mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being 3 separate dieties but that the Holy Spirit is the essence of God dwelling in Christ and available to all who accept it... thanks to Christ. The catholics adopted the "trinity" doctrine from greek and roman pagan doctrines.
I think you get the point. I considered myself protestant until about a year ago because, though the reformation was a right step of breaking away from catholicism, the influence of catholicism still lingers today.... not in the sense of the heirarchy of the catholic church but in some small, but very serious doctrine practices which stuck with the protestants from the catholic church and ultimately from paganism.
DoctorX is neither Catholic or Protestant. He is Church of God as I am. We believe in mainly the same thing aside from a disagreement of prophets/false prophets. I actually consider myself a Judeo-Christian which is a christian who believes christians were never meant to be a separate religion of Judaism... just a sect of Judaism. This is ultimately what the 1st century apostles were as they kept all the Jewish customs aside from animal sacrifices (due to the sacrifice of Christ).
I know the basis of your beliefs from our past discussions and to be honest with you, the 7th Day Adventists are probably the only protestant church group that closely follows God's laws as they should be. I think DrX is concerned about the other doctrine the protestants carried away from catholicism.
Example: You believe in the 7th day sabbath but what about the annual sabbaths? They are all one in the same with the commandment of keeping the sabbath holy. There are 7 annual sabbaths and they revolve around God's Holy Days.
Do you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween/All-Saints Day, Valentines Day, St. Patricks Day? If so, they are all days created by the Catholics and originated in paganism and idolatry. The Word of God is adament about mixing pagan traditions with christian/jewish doctrine. (I'm not claiming you do these things or believe in them, just wondering if you do.)
Do you believe the body and soul separate after death? This is a post-apostolic innovation by influence of the greek philosophers and adopted by the catholics. The 1st century church still believed that you remain dead until the return of Christ.
Do you believe in the trinity? The bible never mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being 3 separate dieties but that the Holy Spirit is the essence of God dwelling in Christ and available to all who accept it... thanks to Christ. The catholics adopted the "trinity" doctrine from greek and roman pagan doctrines.
I think you get the point. I considered myself protestant until about a year ago because, though the reformation was a right step of breaking away from catholicism, the influence of catholicism still lingers today.... not in the sense of the heirarchy of the catholic church but in some small, but very serious doctrine practices which stuck with the protestants from the catholic church and ultimately from paganism.
DoctorX is neither Catholic or Protestant. He is Church of God as I am. We believe in mainly the same thing aside from a disagreement of prophets/false prophets. I actually consider myself a Judeo-Christian which is a christian who believes christians were never meant to be a separate religion of Judaism... just a sect of Judaism. This is ultimately what the 1st century apostles were as they kept all the Jewish customs aside from animal sacrifices (due to the sacrifice of Christ).
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
My understanding is that many of the edicts and proscriptions found in the scriptures were set up that way by leaders of the church to help their followers find a narrow path and to keep them in order.
Thus they had a lot of rules and regulations and guidelines which are really not important beyond their milieu. (IOW, their tribes)
In the New Testament, Jesus says essentially, forget all those things, have faith, accept the Son of God and the Son of Man as your savior and you'll be forgiven of your sins and got into 'heaven'.
Now if you look at the specifics of this, it also contains a loophole or a problem.
One could live a perfect life, be kind and gentle to all, never harm a living thing and be charitable and follow all the commandments. BUT if you don't become 'saved' you will go burn in Hell.
Likewise, if you live a horrible life and kill, steal, and break all the commandments then at the last minute repent and get saved, you will go to Heaven.
Similarly, a baby which has not been baptized will not go to heaven, being considered tainted by Original Sin.
So in the end you could have a 'Heaven' filled with (former) Murderers and Rapists and Thieves and Degenerates and a 'Hell' filled with babies and Near Saints.
Weird, huh?
Also consider how many believers/Church goers are/act.
On the surface they act pious, obey the laws and talk the talk. But when they leave Church they go home and for six days they are abusive, beat their children and spouses, be vengeful and mean and gossip about their neighbor and exhibit just about the worst aspects of human behavior.
One friend who was beaten unmercifully as a child said to me: "Well my parents go to church and are Sunday School teachers and Deacons and pay their tithes but when they leave they came home and fought with each other and took it out on their poor defenseless children, beating them with belts and wooden implements and coat hangers. They were essential serial child abusers but in those days corporal punishment was considered 'the right way'."
Now, my friend said I may not be perfect but at least I never ritualistically and serially committed assault and battery on a defenseless child for a half a dozen years.
So yes there are rules and only a tiny minority may be able to follow them. If the gate is very narrow then that's just the way it is. Essentially, it appears, the Supreme Being created a lot of imperfect people or created a lot of people with built-in imperfections. Hard to know which. Of course another way to look at it is the SB created humans with free will and it's always been up to them, but it's also up to them to discover, learn and follow a lot of hard to remember guidelines, so one might think there's a lot of luck involved.
$.02
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
[edit on 1/4/2009 by Badge01]
reply to post by Badge01
Interesting take but I use the Bible as my guide and nowhere does it say you can have a free ride into paradise. Like I mentioned before, I don't believe man enters heaven due to John 3:13 "No man has acsended to heaven except He who came from heaven, that is the Son of man who is in heaven. I know some will argue this point by stating that until the death of Christ no one could enter heaven but this book was written by John 40+ years after the death of Christ. The context is set as Christ saying these words before He died but saying that He's "in heaven" already though he was speaking in the flesh to a centuron.
Also, the straight and narrow path is set because of the new covenant in which the laws of God are written in our hearts. There is literally more to lose as a Christian by not practicing what you preach. We are told to be like Christ in every way but most christians fail to realize the fact that Jesus celebrated the 7 Holy Day feasts, DID NOT CELEBRATE HIS BIRTHDAY, followed all commandments and by-laws, and saught out sinners to heal them. Now many churches today know nothing about the Holy Days and instead celebrate the pagan-created easter, christmas, etc.,
break at least 1 commandment every week (sabbath-keeping), and turn away or frown at people who are not dressed in their "sunday best". These groups have taken the broad gate and wide way to destruction due to their hipocracy.
As for your take on the theif, babies, or rapists being forgiven upon death, you need to realize there are 2 resurrections for mankind. The first is that of faithful christians (of which there are very few) who join Christ in ruling the earth. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 years of peace when the time of judgement starts. All who have ever lived (aside from those of the prior resurrection) throughout history including the theif on the cross, the repentant rapist, babies, Adam, Queen of Sheeba, and even George Carlin will come before God and will be given a genuine opportunity to repent of their sins. Most will repent but the hardened hearts will be thrown into the lake of fire which is known as the second death. That's right, it is a death sentence. There will be no burning for eternity, just burning until you die. Just look at the scripture when it speaks of the wicked. Great example is Malachi 4:3 "ashes under your feet". There are verses that get into the fact that the wicked are destroyed, killed, abolished, etc.
So to sum it up, the straight and narrow way is a true statement to live by if you are trying to avoid the POSSIBILITY of a second death. Those in the first resurrection are safe from the sting of death.
Interesting take but I use the Bible as my guide and nowhere does it say you can have a free ride into paradise. Like I mentioned before, I don't believe man enters heaven due to John 3:13 "No man has acsended to heaven except He who came from heaven, that is the Son of man who is in heaven. I know some will argue this point by stating that until the death of Christ no one could enter heaven but this book was written by John 40+ years after the death of Christ. The context is set as Christ saying these words before He died but saying that He's "in heaven" already though he was speaking in the flesh to a centuron.
Also, the straight and narrow path is set because of the new covenant in which the laws of God are written in our hearts. There is literally more to lose as a Christian by not practicing what you preach. We are told to be like Christ in every way but most christians fail to realize the fact that Jesus celebrated the 7 Holy Day feasts, DID NOT CELEBRATE HIS BIRTHDAY, followed all commandments and by-laws, and saught out sinners to heal them. Now many churches today know nothing about the Holy Days and instead celebrate the pagan-created easter, christmas, etc.,
break at least 1 commandment every week (sabbath-keeping), and turn away or frown at people who are not dressed in their "sunday best". These groups have taken the broad gate and wide way to destruction due to their hipocracy.
As for your take on the theif, babies, or rapists being forgiven upon death, you need to realize there are 2 resurrections for mankind. The first is that of faithful christians (of which there are very few) who join Christ in ruling the earth. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 years of peace when the time of judgement starts. All who have ever lived (aside from those of the prior resurrection) throughout history including the theif on the cross, the repentant rapist, babies, Adam, Queen of Sheeba, and even George Carlin will come before God and will be given a genuine opportunity to repent of their sins. Most will repent but the hardened hearts will be thrown into the lake of fire which is known as the second death. That's right, it is a death sentence. There will be no burning for eternity, just burning until you die. Just look at the scripture when it speaks of the wicked. Great example is Malachi 4:3 "ashes under your feet". There are verses that get into the fact that the wicked are destroyed, killed, abolished, etc.
So to sum it up, the straight and narrow way is a true statement to live by if you are trying to avoid the POSSIBILITY of a second death. Those in the first resurrection are safe from the sting of death.
Originally posted by Locoman8
John 3:13 "No man has acsended to heaven except He who came from heaven, that is the Son of man who is in heaven. I know some will argue this point by stating that until the death of Christ no one could enter heaven but this book was written by John 40+ years after the death of Christ.
well, not exactly. after jesus died and presented his blood at the ultimate sacrifice, then the door was open, people were allowed to have that heavenly calling. jesus likened it to invitations to a marriage feast.
the first century christians received invitations to this wedding in heaven (their white pebble), but it wasnt to happen then.
first, we both know that noone is resurrected until jesus ¨returns¨. i believe that to have been 1914, but others belief that is still in the future. doesnt matter, the point is that john was correct, even 60 years after, noone had ascended except jesus.
even the apostles
reply to post by Locoman8
Short answer is no. We are similar to Jehovah's Witnesses that way. We would not have a cross on our church or on our Bibles, either.
I do not believe in the Catholic version of the Trinity though I think there is something to be said about the New Testament mentioning the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I think the important thing is that Jesus is the Christ and Messiah and has been given the very power of God to carry out our salvation to the very end and he will be most assuredly triumphant in the end.
The seventh day Sabbath is in the Ten Commandments and written in stone by the finger of God and placed in a gold covered box. The other laws were written on perishable material and placed on the outside of the box. One was meant to last forever and one was temporary. We do think some of those things you mention will be re-instituted in the new world. In the mean time I do not get too concerned about it. I consider myself a gentile who has been gathered unto the Lord because of a provision for the end times that Jesus' ministry ushered in.
The forces of Romanism has been hard at work since the beginning to crush all opposition and seem to be succeeding by deceit to water down the principles of the Reformation and to bring the Churches back to their way of thinking. The more a particular group stands in opposition to Rome the more concerted is their attack against it. No one is immune from this influence of evil.
[edit on 5-1-2009 by jmdewey60]
Do you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween/All-Saints Day, Valentines Day, St. Patricks Day?
Short answer is no. We are similar to Jehovah's Witnesses that way. We would not have a cross on our church or on our Bibles, either.
I do not believe in the Catholic version of the Trinity though I think there is something to be said about the New Testament mentioning the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I think the important thing is that Jesus is the Christ and Messiah and has been given the very power of God to carry out our salvation to the very end and he will be most assuredly triumphant in the end.
The seventh day Sabbath is in the Ten Commandments and written in stone by the finger of God and placed in a gold covered box. The other laws were written on perishable material and placed on the outside of the box. One was meant to last forever and one was temporary. We do think some of those things you mention will be re-instituted in the new world. In the mean time I do not get too concerned about it. I consider myself a gentile who has been gathered unto the Lord because of a provision for the end times that Jesus' ministry ushered in.
The forces of Romanism has been hard at work since the beginning to crush all opposition and seem to be succeeding by deceit to water down the principles of the Reformation and to bring the Churches back to their way of thinking. The more a particular group stands in opposition to Rome the more concerted is their attack against it. No one is immune from this influence of evil.
[edit on 5-1-2009 by jmdewey60]
reply to post by jmdewey60
You consider yourself a gentile and I consider myself an Israelite. I believe in British-Israelism which is the belief that the lost 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom migrated to Northwest Europe and Great Britain recieved the birthright of Joseph. The prophecies in Genesis referring to "one great nation, and a multitude of nations" point to the British Empire (multitiude of nations) and the United States (one great nation) but further studies on the exile of the Northern Kingdom will still lead to that. Just research the "scythians" who emerged around the same time the lost tribes went missing. In this sense, I believe in the by-laws (aside from animal sacrifices and the slave/servant laws which are not needed today).
You consider yourself a gentile and I consider myself an Israelite. I believe in British-Israelism which is the belief that the lost 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom migrated to Northwest Europe and Great Britain recieved the birthright of Joseph. The prophecies in Genesis referring to "one great nation, and a multitude of nations" point to the British Empire (multitiude of nations) and the United States (one great nation) but further studies on the exile of the Northern Kingdom will still lead to that. Just research the "scythians" who emerged around the same time the lost tribes went missing. In this sense, I believe in the by-laws (aside from animal sacrifices and the slave/servant laws which are not needed today).
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