only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

reply to post by miriam0566

ok, let me explain this in a different way...

You can't Miriam, you just can't. Not to those in the "Church of God".

Miriam, sometimes (not always, but sometimes) I'm not sure we (you and I) are playing "catch" with the same ball. Sometimes we DO, and sometimes we DON'T. I (sorta) know when we ARE.

When we aren't, I don't know what "ball" we are using anymore for the debate. I can't really "argue" outside of Scripture. Neither do I find "comfort" or joy outside of Scripture:

John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Jesus promised joy withIN His words.

Originally posted by miriam0566
ok, let me explain this in a different way...

my point is, what john is seeing is in heaven, not some representation of earthly things

[3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

latter part of verse 2 and verse 3 show us GOD. this is the almighty. we know hes in heaven (1 kings 8:42). we know he´s a spirit (john 4:24)

[4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

who are these 24 elders? they are before god in heaven right? or maybe they are on earth?

rev 5:[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

so a question is raised, john who is ¨in heaven¨ is asked by one of the 24 elders why he is crying. the 24 elders have crowns, dressed in white and are in heaven before the throne. this IS the most holy part of heaven. if the tabernacle was infact a forshadow, this area would be accesible only by the priesthood.

[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

so jesus is depicted as a slaughtered lamb with seven eyes. of course its symbolic. jesus was the sacrifice for all minkind. seven eyes could imply that he has perfect discernment, able to see anything.

but as he opens the scroll, notice what the 24 elders start singing. they start to praise god.

¨and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;¨-angels cannot fall into this catergory since they were not born on earth. we are talking about people who were from earth now sitting on thrones before god himself in heaven.

i understand what you are saying, but this scripture very simply shows that some do go to heaven.


now, who are these 24 elders? is 24 literal or symbolic?

verse 10 gives us a clue, ¨hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth¨

No, it doesn't. Once again it has simply been translated that way in English to give that impression. In the original Greek, no words meaning "us" or "we" are used. Read it for yourself if you don't believe me. These elders are not speaking of themselves being bought by the blood of Christ, or them ruling and priests and kings etc. This alone blows gaping holes in your argument, so there is no point addressing the rest, since the 24 elders are not mentioned as being human, and they are not talking of themselves.


Verse 9 literally translated words in the greek ....

AND THEY-ARE-SINGINGS SONG NEW SAYING WORTHY YOU-ARE TO-BE-GETTING THE SCROLLET AND TO-UP-OPEN THE SEALS OF-IT THAT YOU-WERE-SLAIN AND BUY TO-THE GOD IN THE BLOOD OF-YOU OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION

verse 10 ......

AND YOU MAKE THEM TO-THE GOD OF-US KINGDOM AND SACRED-ONES AND [THEY-SHALL-BE-REIGNING] ON OF THE LAND



[edit on 11/12/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy

Jesus promised joy withIN His words.

im suree i understand what you mean, didnt i use scriptures?

just because you pick a transcript ¨us¨in it doesnt mean it isnt there. in fact Wescott and Hort is the only one i found that doesnt have it.

every other transcript i searched had it.

ημας = personal pronoun - first person accusative plural
hemas hay-mas': us -- our, us, we.

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 5:9 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
και αδουσιν ωδην καινην λεγοντες αξιος ει λαβειν το βιβλιον και ανοιξαι τας σφραγιδας αυτου οτι εσφαγης και ηγορασας τω θεω ημας εν τω αιματι σου εκ πασης φυλης και γλωσσης και λαου και εθνους

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 5:9 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
και αδουσιν ωδην καινην λεγοντες αξιος ει λαβειν το βιβλιον και ανοιξαι τας σφραγιδας αυτου οτι εσφαγης και ηγορασας τω θεω ημας εν τω αιματι σου εκ πασης φυλης και γλωσσης και λαου και εθνους

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 5:9 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
και αδουσιν ωδην καινην λεγοντες αξιος ει λαβειν το βιβλιον και ανοιξαι τας σφραγιδας αυτου οτι εσφαγης και ηγορασας τω θεω ημας εν τω αιματι σου εκ πασης φυλης και γλωσσης και λαου και εθνους

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 5:9 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ ἄδουσιν ᾠδὴν καινὴν λέγοντες· Ἄξιος εἶ λαβεῖν τὸ βιβλίον καὶ ἀνοῖξαι τὰς σφραγῖδας αὐτοῦ, ὅτι ἐσφάγης καὶ ἠγόρασας τῷ Θεῷ ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ αἵματί σου ἐκ πάσης φυλῆς καὶ γλώσσης καὶ λαοῦ καὶ ἔθνους,

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 5:9 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
καὶ ᾄδουσιν ᾠδὴν καινὴν λέγοντες Ἄξιος εἶ λαβεῖν τὸ βιβλίον καὶ ἀνοῖξαι τὰς σφραγῖδας αὐτοῦ ὅτι ἐσφάγης καὶ ἠγόρασας τῷ θεῷ ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ αἵματί σου ἐκ πάσης φυλῆς καὶ γλώσσης καὶ λαοῦ καὶ ἔθνους

even if the word us wasnt there, the context clearly points to the 24 elders having been bought.

rev 14:[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,

24 elders sing before the throne. the 144,000 sing before the throne. even if they are separated into 2 separate groups, what do you think they are singing?

its the context of the scripture, and your grasping at straws to throw it out

Originally posted by miriam0566
just because you pick a transcript ¨us¨in it doesnt mean it isnt there. in fact Wescott and Hort is the only one i found that doesnt have it.

Funny that, when you look into the Wescott and Hort and why so many hate it.

even if the word us wasnt there, the context clearly points to the 24 elders having been bought.

The context does no such thing. The context says the song is sung by both the 24 elders AND the four beasts, and they are singing about those bought and redeemed trough the blood of the Lamb from the nations, tribes etc, so where do the 4 beasts fit into that, if they are singing about themselves. Also, why are they holding bowls full of the prayers of the saints, if they themselves are saints, why the contrast? Ask yourself, what are Angels, and what do they do?

rev 14:[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,

24 elders sing before the throne. the 144,000 sing before the throne. even if they are separated into 2 separate groups, what do you think they are singing?

I know that the two groups songs are completely different songs, that is certain....

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Since the song the 144,000 are singing can be sung by them only, it is different from the song sung by the 4 beasts and the 24 elders, and since the 144,000 are singing it BEFORE the 24 elders and the four beasts, then the 24 elders are not part of the 144,000 who reign with Christ. So, now, is the song that the 24 elders and the four beasts are singing, the one about those becoming kings and priests, about them? Obviously not, is it?

One other point that proves this to be the case: The verse above says the 144,000 are those redeemed from the earth, and the song the elders/beasts are singing is about those redeemed from the earth, so who is the song about that the elders/beasts singing? Look at the two verses again....

REv 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us [should be translated "them"] to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Also, if the 144,000 are those redeemed from the Earth, why are the 24 Elders not part of them? ? ? ?

its the context of the scripture, and your grasping at straws to throw it out

No it isn't, the context, and others verses such as REV 14:3 actually shows the truth.

[edit on 12/12/08 by doctorex]

ok, but your ignoring the 24 elders kingship. and the fact that they are sitting on throne WITH the lamb BEFORE god.

does everyone in heaven have a crown now? even the seraph creatures dont have crowns.

who else would they be except those who were made kings?

you also skipped the reference to ¨us¨ that seems to be in most transcripts

reply to post by miriam0566


The 24 elders are angels. They are angels of the highest rank such as archangels like Michael, Gabriel, etc. Also look at the context of the first song....

In the New King James Bible which is way more accurate than the original KJV states that the word "us" should translate to "them" so to read it accurately lets see:

10: And have made THEM kings and priests to our God, and THEY shall reign on the earth.

....even the word "we" translates to "they" in the reference column of NJKV of the bible.

Also, to define the elders better, there is another area of revelation you should consider....

Revelation 7:13-17 explains the redemption of the saints as said by an elder...

13: Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14: And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16: "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17: "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

If you read the first 12 verses of chapter 7 it explains the sealing of the 144,000 and multitude also mentions the surrounding of the throne by the angels, elders, and 4 beasts. The saints shout out to God in verse 10:

10: and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!

The context in chapter 7 is the sealing of the 144,000 for protection of God's wrath as the 7 plagues pour out in chapter 8. The great multitude are those who were martyred after the sealing and were redeemed or "washed" in the blood of Christ. But the verses I gave you mark one important thing.....

-Then one of the ELDERS answered, saying to me, "Who are these arayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"

An elder is asking the question to John , "Who are these" in white robes? This means that the elder, separate from the robed multitude cannot be of the multitude. So of the three possibilities of either angel, sealed, or multitude, we mark out multitude. Now of the 144,000 sealed we look back at verses 2-4

2: Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and sea,
3: saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4: And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

So we see the sealing of the 144,000 before the wrath of God besets the earth telling me if the Elders are in heaven speaking with John (in his vision) then the elders cannot be part of the 144,000. There's also nothing in the bible actually leaning to the idea these elders are humans. They are said to be among the angels, 4 beasts and God so I maintain that they are lead angels. It's more likely than being Men. Any thoughts?

Also these 24 elders are said to be "throwing" their crowns at the feet of God in chapter 4 verse 10-11.

Also I noticed your argument with John 3:13 calling it "past-tense" yet John wrote these words long after Christ died and he wrote these words as Christ saying them meaning two things.... one, that even after the death of Christ, no other man was in heaven, also if Jesus said these words Himself, He was speaking of a future event when He would die and go to heaven. Also, what makes some followers better than others after the death of Christ to be able to go to heaven?

Originally posted by miriam0566
ok, but your ignoring the 24 elders kingship. and the fact that they are sitting on throne WITH the lamb BEFORE god.

does everyone in heaven have a crown now? even the seraph creatures dont have crowns.

who else would they be except those who were made kings?

The word translated as throne means stately seat, a position of power, or simply even a seat. The word translated as crown means wreath, a badge of honor as well as royalty, which was also given as prizes in games etc, it doesn't mean you were literally a king if you wore one. You are simply getting that picture in you head from how those words a translated and what they picture in English.

you also skipped the reference to ¨us¨ that seems to be in most transcripts

No I didn't. They are all latter transcripts.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Cute "ball" metaphore. You can't go outside of scripture? You have something against the CoG? I know DrX is a follower of CoGPKG and the main thing I disagree with him on is the falsness of Ronald Weinland. You, being raised as a protestant (I'm assuming) are too blind or hard-headed to see what the Armstrong movement was and is about. The 1st century christians were known as Judeo-Christians which were nothing more than a sect of Judaism. It was never intended to be a separate religion from Judaism but it did after the Romanization of Christianity. When catholicism spread in the Roman Empire, the mission was to separate from the Jews and in doing so, they adopted some of the former Pagan Rome traditions... lots of them thanks to Constantine and the council of naicea.... in order to bring more pagans into christianity. They changed the holy sabbath to sunday... the day of the sun (worshipped by pagans), they got rid of the Holy Days commanded in the OT which were celebrated in the early church.... brought in the idea of separation of body and soul at death.... a popular greek belief made famous by Plato, they brought the traditional idea that when you die, you go to heaven or hell for eternity yet the bible supports the remaining in the graves till resurrections along with a 2nd death as opposed to eternity burning in hell. These were all early christian beliefs and the majority of christians have lost sight of these facts which can be found in the encycolapedia or history books. You support a pre-trib rapture which is not proveable or supported in the bible, and please show me if there is because the scripture in 1thessalonians is weak due to the "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" argument and the lack of follow-up for a heavenly raise. How is it, the majority of the western world believe in this traditional thinking of christianity yet the bible states the true church will remain a "small flock" and the path of righteousness would be "Long and Narrow"? I promise you if you wanna duke it out in a bible scripture battle to settle your case against mine, your argument will be weak. I don't mean any disrespect but you disrespected me and (though he's not completely right) doctorX. Here's a question to ponder on.... What does "Gospel" mean? I don't mean the literal translation which is "Good News" but what exactly is the "Good News" in the new testament? I'll be waiting for your answer. God bless you sir.

reply to post by Locoman8


I reject Armstrongism as a heretical doctrine.

en.wikipedia.org...

They changed the holy sabbath to sunday... the day of the sun (worshipped by pagans), they got rid of the Holy Days commanded in the OT which were celebrated in the early church.

This is part of Armstrongism and even the current WCoG doesn't believe this any longer.

How is it, the majority of the western world believe in this traditional thinking of christianity yet the bible states the true church will remain a "small flock" and the path of righteousness would be "Long and Narrow"?

There are very very FEW Christian churches that consider a pre-trib rapture. It is certainly not a majority. (Unless you mean that the majority of churches believe that a LOT of people are saved...and they DO teach that, but the Bible teaches otherwise.)

Yes, I believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I also believe that the event will be so small, it will hardly (if at all) be noticed by the professing Christians in the world.

As for arguing for/against a rapture, we've already done this in a prior thread, locoman8. Or did you forget that?

reply to post by PreTribGuy


I didn't forget that. I'm not talking about the rapture, but any of your doctrinal belief. You call Armstrongism, heretic? You know the word "heretic" originally referred to Judeo-Christians right? Someone who followed the Jewish ways but believed in Christ. Roman Catholics started referring to these people as heretics so if that's what you wanna call me, well you'll be the one to answer for that. The current WCoG changed because Armstrong died. It has nothing to do with the current Apostolic following Church of God. I'm not saying the man was 100% right but he addressed many traditional doctrines that were never part of the early church doctrine. I think you're a lost cause. I liked you before but now it's straight up disrespect you show on this thread, just because someone follows the Armstrong movement. It's called mental persecution sir!.... or ma'am. Never bothered to check on your gender.

reply to post by Locoman8

You call Armstrongism, heretic?

Actually, I call it a heresy.

I liked you before but now it's straight up disrespect you show on this thread, just because someone follows the Armstrong movement.

Because I call it a heresy? Because not only do I call it a heresy, but most of Christiandom would call it a heresy?

Some (perhaps most?) would say that a "Pre-Trib" belief is a type of heresy (in their view). I'm "ok" with that. I think that THEY are wrong, though.

"Heresy" is a valid theological term to describe doctrinal error. Protestants think Catholics are heretics and vice versa. This word (heresy) is a valid term in theology and it doesn't mean "damned". It means a serious doctrinal error.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Where is my doctrinal error? Everything I believe, I can back up with scripture. Many if not most christians have their own beliefs separate from what the bible says.... like the pre-trib rapture or an eternity burning in hell. I follow the teachings of the United Church of God and the Living Church of God, both former WCoG followers.

Let me ask you a question..... why do you think it's false doctrine? Also you never answered the question I asked you. "What is the 'Good News' in the bible?"

Originally posted by Locoman8
Where is my doctrinal error? Everything I believe, I can back up with scripture.

you can only back it up with scripture by twisting the meaning of the scripture from the simple literal meaning.

like matt 25:31-33
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

is jesus in heaven or on earth at this point? you'll likely suggest that "holy angels" means something else right?

its not that you doctrine is supported. to support it you have to readjust things that the text is plainly saying

Originally posted by miriam0566

matt 25:31-33
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

is jesus in heaven or on earth at this point? you'll likely suggest that "holy angels" means something else right?

If Jesus is to "come" with his Holy angels, and he is at the moment in heaven, he can't come to heaven when he is already there. He is coming to Earth, to be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, that is his throne of Glory. He was prophesied to take the throne of his father David, this throne spoken of here is an earthly throne.

Originally posted by doctorex
If Jesus is to "come" with his Holy angels, and he is at the moment in heaven, he can't come to heaven when he is already there. He is coming to Earth, to be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, that is his throne of Glory. He was prophesied to take the throne of his father David, this throne spoken of here is an earthly throne.

and the angels come to earth with him?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
If Jesus is to "come" with his Holy angels, and he is at the moment in heaven, he can't come to heaven when he is already there. He is coming to Earth, to be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, that is his throne of Glory. He was prophesied to take the throne of his father David, this throne spoken of here is an earthly throne.

and the angels come to earth with him?

Why not? Are not there angels already here, around us right now?

Hb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Originally posted by doctorex
Why not? Are not there angels already here, around us right now?

Hb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

because angels are spirit.

its like you would prefer to believe that everything is going to happen physically on earth.
jesus and ALL his angels are just going to materialize on earth and fight satan (who is a spirit too) and his demons (spirit too) on the physical earth.

all this because you are taking a passage that was stated in past tense to mean that noone will ever go to heaven.

square peg, round hole

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
Why not? Are not there angels already here, around us right now?

Hb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

because angels are spirit.

its like you would prefer to believe that everything is going to happen physically on earth.
jesus and ALL his angels are just going to materialize on earth and fight satan (who is a spirit too) and his demons (spirit too) on the physical earth.

Just because angels are spirit, does that mean they are not coming to Earth with Christ, who, as you pointed out, is also spirit? I never said the angels have to materialize themselves physically to fight Satan and his demons, did I?

all this because you are taking a passage that was stated in past tense to mean that noone will ever go to heaven.

Then why, even after the death of Christ, does Peter say that even King David himself (a man God called "a man after mine own heart") had not risen to heaven, and was still in the grave? (Acts 2)