only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

king david lived and died before the veil to the most holy was torn. while jesus sacrifice does mean that david has the opportunity to receive everlasting life, he would not be counted among the ¨firstfruits¨. other examples would be john the baptizer (beheaded before jesus sent holy spirit to the congregation gathered at jerusalem.)

if the events of Pentecost 33 a.d. was infact the anointing of the first of the ¨firstfruits¨ then that would imply too that the robber crucified next to the jesus would have an earthly hope, not heavenly. which makes sense since jesus said paradise, not something like glory of heaven.

there is also another key point about the 2 resurrections. the first resurrection is from corruptible to incorruptible. those that are included in this resurrection have to run ¨race to the finish¨ and ¨stay faithful until the end¨. it implies that those who go to heaven have to know and accept the truth and stick with it until they die.

the second resurrection is alittle different, book of john says that it is a resurrection of the ¨righteous and the unrighteous¨. people like the robber felt sorry for what he did, but when he is resurrected, he will be able to show his repentance with works.

--------

what im saying is that some go to heaven.

jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, 1 cor 15 shows us that those chosen or who have the ¨heavenly calling¨ are too.

you have scriptures in revelation that show evidence that the 24 elders are indeed the 144,000 and that these are ¨before the throne of god¨

suggesting that jesus returns in the flesh with angels and the 144,000 raises the question why?

is there something about being in heaven that prevents jesus from fulfilling his duties?

Originally posted by miriam0566
king david lived and died before the veil to the most holy was torn. while jesus sacrifice does mean that david has the opportunity to receive everlasting life, he would not be counted among the ¨firstfruits¨. other examples would be john the baptizer (beheaded before jesus sent holy spirit to the congregation gathered at jerusalem.)

No, Christ is the first to receive eternal life, the rest, meaning all, and as it is mentioned, even those that are Christ's, don't receive it until Christ's second coming. This passage states this quite bluntly....

1CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

what im saying is that some go to heaven.

jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, 1 cor 15 shows us that those chosen or who have the ¨heavenly calling¨ are too.

Yes, the first resurrected do recieve spirit bodies, but it doesn't say they go to heaven.

you have scriptures in revelation that show evidence that the 24 elders are indeed the 144,000 and that these are ¨before the throne of god¨

No, you have evidence in scripture that states the 24 elders are NOT part of the 144,000....

REVELATION 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

How are the 144,000 singing a song that only they could learn, BEFORE the 24 elders, if the elders are part of this 144,000?

suggesting that jesus returns in the flesh with angels and the 144,000 raises the question why?

Jesus doesn't return with the 144,000, they are raised at his coming, it is the angels that come with Christ.

is there something about being in heaven that prevents jesus from fulfilling his duties?

Nothing prevents Jesus from doing anything, it is simply that this is where Satan and his demons are, where Satan's throne is. Christ is coming to remove him from the throne of the Earth, and his angels will bind Satan and place him in the pit for 1000 years, and Christ himself will sit as King of Kings.

[edit on 23/12/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by doctorex
Yes, the first resurrected do recieve spirit bodies, but it doesn't say they go to heaven.

i find you reasoning on this subject very confusing.

so jesus was made flesh and died to be resurrected with a spiritual body so that he could live in heaven.

the 144,000 like jesus are flesh but die and are resurrected with spiritual bodies, but they dont go to heaven.

why would someone need a spiritual body to live on earth? is there any particular scripture that says they a not allowed to go to heaven?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
Yes, the first resurrected do recieve spirit bodies, but it doesn't say they go to heaven.

i find you reasoning on this subject very confusing.

There is no reasoning, I'm simply going off what is said in scripture.

so jesus was made flesh and died to be resurrected with a spiritual body so that he could live in heaven.

the 144,000 like jesus are flesh but die and are resurrected with spiritual bodies, but they dont go to heaven.

why would someone need a spiritual body to live on earth?

They are given spiritual bodies not so they can simply "live" on Earth, but so that they can reign with Christ 1000 years.

is there any particular scripture that says they a not allowed to go to heaven?

Is there any verses that say they are? There are numerous verses that say Jesus and his kingdom are on the Earth, and that eventually God the father himself will come to Earth with His heavenly city. Heaven is coming here. There are no verses talking of humans in Heaven except for Christ, who went up to sit on the right hand of his father until he comes into his Kingdom.

Originally posted by doctorex
They are given spiritual bodies not so they can simply "live" on Earth, but so that they can reign with Christ 1000 years.

so everyone who has phyisical bodies dies during the thousand years?

There are numerous verses that say Jesus and his kingdom are on the Earth,

actually it says jesus and the kingdom rule ¨over¨the earth

and that eventually God the father himself will come to Earth

actually it says he will dwell with his people. this doesnt necessarily mean in a literal physical way. (psalm 5)

with His heavenly city. Heaven is coming here.

new jerusalem is not a literal city (as i have pointed out before)

new jerusalem is the bride of the lamb. (rev 21:9-11)

the early congregation was likened to a ¨chaste virgen¨ to be presented to christ (2co 11:2)

the early congregation had a ¨citizenship that exists in the heavens¨ (phillipians 3:20) with an inheritance reserved for them in ¨the heavens¨ (1 peter 1:4

There are no verses talking of humans in Heaven except for Christ, who went up to sit on the right hand of his father until he comes into his Kingdom.

you claim you are just reading the scriptures, but your not. your making excuses and exceptions. your twisting words that plainly point to a ¨heavenly calling¨ (heb 3:1) that some have.

really im not sure i can explain any of this stuff any more simply.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
They are given spiritual bodies not so they can simply "live" on Earth, but so that they can reign with Christ 1000 years.

so everyone who has phyisical bodies dies during the thousand years?

Yes.

There are numerous verses that say Jesus and his kingdom are on the Earth,

actually it says jesus and the kingdom rule ¨over¨the earth

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The prophecy in Daniel 2 also shows where the kingdom will be....

DANIEL 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Later in the interpretation of this dream, Daniel explains what this mountain that fills the whole earth is....

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Even in the verses that say in English that the kingdom will rule "over" the earth, the word translated as "over" is the greek word epi....

epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

It is the same word used in Luke 23:44 (And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour). Was this darkness on the earth, or not? When a King rules "over" his people, does this mean he hovers above them?

and that eventually God the father himself will come to Earth

actually it says he will dwell with his people. this doesnt necessarily mean in a literal physical way. (psalm 5)

He will dwell with his people, and where will that be?

Rev 20:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

It doesn't have to be physcial, God is not physical, but this is where his spiritual presence will be. It says his tabernacle is coming out of heaven to be with man, so why would God leave heaven to be with man if man was already in heaven?

new jerusalem is not a literal city (as i have pointed out before)

new jerusalem is the bride of the lamb. (rev 21:9-11)

It doesn't have to be a literal city, but what it symbolizes, will be on Earth.
The tabernacle of God is coming down from out of Heaven, meaning it will not be in heaven.

There are no verses talking of humans in Heaven except for Christ, who went up to sit on the right hand of his father until he comes into his Kingdom.

you claim you are just reading the scriptures, but your not. your making excuses and exceptions. your twisting words that plainly point to a ¨heavenly calling¨ (heb 3:1) that some have.

I am not twisting anything, nor am I making excuses or exceptions. You don't even understand what the "heavenly calling" is. You think it is a calling TO heaven, when it is a calling FROM heaven. It is a calling from God, who is in Heaven, unto salvation, a calling to truth, a calling to be saints, a calling to Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Listen to what the Apostles had to say, they had already received this calling from God (heavenly), yet they were still on Earth....

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

That is what the word church (ekklesia) means, a called-out assembly. By your logic, you are not even in the church until you are in heaven.

really im not sure i can explain any of this stuff any more simply.

You are explaining your belief simply enough, but I'm sorry, it's simply wrong.

reply to post by miriam0566


I don't twist anything and please don't start this argument with me because I like you. I think DoctorX has answered much of these arguments for me. As he said, why can't spirit beings be on earth right now? Isn't satan on earth decieving the nations right now? Spirit beings such as angels are believed to go from heaven to earth and back. Also spirits can transfigure to physical form as well, or do you need a lesson on the gospel of Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles? Your argument is that spirit is only in heaven but the bible already disproves that. There are angels among us. You need to look at the three-dementional aspect rather than the 2-D world you're stuck in. You know the term, "Thy Kingdom come"? Where exactly is the Kingdome going to? If it's in heaven, it doesn't have to go anywhere. It is coming to earth. It is prepared in heaven.

Originally posted by Locoman8
I don't twist anything and please don't start this argument with me because I like you.

it wasnt ment as a personal attack. however i am not going to ¨tickle¨ your ears. i do think that some of the points that you and docterx point out are unreasonable. your theory that jesus is the only to go to heaven leaves alot of things unaccounted for, and even requires one to stretch the meaning of certain passages to make it fit.

in short, i disagree. but please do not take it as a personal attack. i in no way ment it that way.

I think DoctorX has answered much of these arguments for me. As he said, why can't spirit beings be on earth right now? Isn't satan on earth decieving the nations right now? Spirit beings such as angels are believed to go from heaven to earth and back. Also spirits can transfigure to physical form as well, or do you need a lesson on the gospel of Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles?

all of these examples refer to activities regarding earth. yes, satan is on earth deceiving the nations, but is not in physical form. he´s still a spirit.

yes, angels did travel between ¨heaven¨ and earth, however they were still spirits. not physical.

yes angels can materialize bodies, but in essence they are still spiritual

rev 14:4 says that the 144.000 follow the lamb wherever he goes, not wherever he goes except for heaven.

i mean seriously think about this for a second. what your saying to me is that those in the first resurrection are raised to be spirits who are immortal (something even angels dont have) but then they are limited to the area of the earth? even though chapter 14 says that they are singing before the throne and before the spirit creatures?

it doesnt make sense.

You know the term, "Thy Kingdom come"? Where exactly is the Kingdome going to? If it's in heaven, it doesn't have to go anywhere. It is coming to earth. It is prepared in heaven.

again, you trying to pin this literal view to something spiritual.

lev 26:[11] And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
[12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

there are 2 ways to read this scripture. literal and figurative.

literal means that god materialized some sort of body and literally lived among his people. but then john would be lying when he said that no man has seen god.

the second way is figurative. god walked with his people in that when they were obedient they were blessed. they cultivated a relationship with god and were happier for it. it made the sensation of alienation that adam and eve cursed us with seem alittle bit less.

your taking ¨thy kingdom come¨ in a literal physical way. and your right it is, however that doesnt mean that jesus and god have to literally and physically be here to implement it.

god has used chieftans and judges and priest who he has appointed. even moses had people assigned under him over thousands and over hundreds.

the other thing that your not taking into consideration is that when jesus gave us that prayer, the kingdom had not arrived yet in that it hadnt been formed yet. since the early 1900´s, jesus was made king. in other words the kingdom is here right now. you, me, everyone is living under it whether we realize it or not. granted, jesus hasnt fought the world´s governments yet, but that is because the preaching of the gospels has to be finished first.

to live under god´s kingdom doesnt require a physical building we can see. even jesus said to the samaritan woman:

“Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (john 4:21-24)

Originally posted by doctorex
epi ep-ee'

a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.)

as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.

of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.

of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

you taking several forms of the word here but you have to figure out which case it is.

if you are talking about a ruler of a kingdom, you are not talking about a spatial case. afterall, a king doesnt literally rule hovering over his kingdom.

in this case, it is in the genitive case or ¨over¨.

again this is not spatial, so im not saying this implies definatly that jesus rules from a literal ¨over¨. what i am saying is that your use of the phrase ¨on the earth¨ to prove that jesus will rule FROM earth is neither here nor there. ¨epi¨ is not used in a spatial context.

Romans 9:5 God who is over all (epi pantón) blessed forever

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all (epi pantón), and through all, and in you all

Revelation 2:26 I will give him authority over the nations (epi tón ethnón)

Luke 19:14 We will not have this man to reign over us (basileusai eph' hémas)

reply to post by miriam0566


I believe in the one world government with Christ as the ruler when He returns. Much of what you disagree with me on is in the sense of taking things literal or figurative. I'll tell you, I took most of the bible figurative until about a year ago. When you put it in literal form, it does tend to make so much more sense. It would make more sense to you if you would get past the idea that you think we believe spirit beings have to be in physical form to dwell on earth but I don't believe that. Maybe this will clarify things for you as far as my beliefs go. I don't believe man will enter heaven UNTIL the kingdom of God is set up on earth. That means AFTER Christ returns the spiritual saints will be able to go between heaven and earth as the angels do now.... but my argument was the fact that all remain dead until the return of Christ. Also, what is all this about Jesus taking his throne in the 1900s? Are you Jehova's Witness or something because they are the only ones I know of who believe Jesus took His throne in 1914 and that the 144,000 are already in heaven and that those of us still living and dieing between 1914 until the return of Christ are living in the time of tribulation. If you are, it would make a lot of sense why you believe what you do. Fact is you have more in common with me than a protestant or catholic does.

Originally posted by DHammer
also notice the way is STRAIT , its not easy by any means, its hard to even enter in ! let alone walk this straight and narrow way, that eventually LEADS to life

"For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Matthew 11:25-30

(tis a journey, it takes time, its not instant , thus not conversion, not repentance).

ill leave it at that for now

I disagree. Salvation is instant. While we should live a life that shows our appreciation, there is nothing we can do to earn it or pay Jesus back for the gift. How many poor should you feed, or how much money do you have to pay to the church before you repay a priceless gift?

The best arguement for this of course is the thief on the cross beside Jesus. Please point out the works he did to obtain salvation. There were none. He simply acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and God's son. Of course if we really believe what we say we'll have actions that back them up. We're warned in the book of Jude to not take our salvation lightly, but you can't point out where salvation is based on works. While these works might gain you a larger mansion in heaven they have nothing to do with the actual act of salvation.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
epi ep-ee'

a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.)

as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.

of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.

of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

you taking several forms of the word here but you have to figure out which case it is.

if you are talking about a ruler of a kingdom, you are not talking about a spatial case. afterall, a king doesnt literally rule hovering over his kingdom.

in this case, it is in the genitive case or ¨over¨.

again this is not spatial, so im not saying this implies definatly that jesus rules from a literal ¨over¨. what i am saying is that your use of the phrase ¨on the earth¨ to prove that jesus will rule FROM earth is neither here nor there. ¨epi¨ is not used in a spatial context.

Romans 9:5 God who is over all (epi pantón) blessed forever

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all (epi pantón), and through all, and in you all

Revelation 2:26 I will give him authority over the nations (epi tón ethnón)

Luke 19:14 We will not have this man to reign over us (basileusai eph' hémas)

My comment was because you said that scripture says the kingdom is over the earth, not on the earth, which isn't the case, and you seem to agree above that the word epi doesn't mean only "over" the earth, but also does mean on the Earth, such as the human kings do. I quoted you scriptures that state where the kingdom will be, and one of them does say on the earth the most prominent being the prophecy in Daniel 2, talking of God setting up a kingdom that destroys all kingdoms, and fills the entire Earth (verses 34-35, and the interpretation in verses 42- 45)....

DAN 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

DAN 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Do you agree that this is saying that in the time of the kings of clay mixed with Iron (the 10 kings/toes/horns of the beast and the harlot), that the time of human kingdoms will end with the return of Christ (the stone) and God will set up a kingdom that will fill the whole Earth? Is it not saying that the stone becomes a mountain (symbolic of a Kingdom) that fills the whole Earth?

Originally posted by miriam0566

I think DoctorX has answered much of these arguments for me. As he said, why can't spirit beings be on earth right now? Isn't satan on earth decieving the nations right now? Spirit beings such as angels are believed to go from heaven to earth and back. Also spirits can transfigure to physical form as well, or do you need a lesson on the gospel of Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles?

all of these examples refer to activities regarding earth. yes, satan is on earth deceiving the nations, but is not in physical form. he´s still a spirit.

yes, angels did travel between ¨heaven¨ and earth, however they were still spirits. not physical.

yes angels can materialize bodies, but in essence they are still spiritual

I don't think either of us has said that they have to be physical, of course they are are going to be spiritual.

Originally posted by Locoman8
It would make more sense to you if you would get past the idea that you think we believe spirit beings have to be in physical form to dwell on earth but I don't believe that. Maybe this will clarify things for you as far as my beliefs go. I don't believe man will enter heaven UNTIL the kingdom of God is set up on earth. That means AFTER Christ returns the spiritual saints will be able to go between heaven and earth as the angels do now.... but my argument was the fact that all remain dead until the return of Christ.

im sorry then, why have you been saying that noone goes to heaven except christ? or maybe im completely mistaken

you´re right, the kingdom must be establish before the first resurrection occurs. but when does that happen?

Also, what is all this about Jesus taking his throne in the 1900s? Are you Jehova's Witness or something because they are the only ones I know of who believe Jesus took His throne in 1914 and that the 144,000 are already in heaven and that those of us still living and dieing between 1914 until the return of Christ are living in the time of tribulation.

not actually what they believe. they believe that a portion of 144000 are in heaven but some are still completing their earthly lives. in other words, theyre numbers are incomplete. they also believe that the tribulation is still coming.

If you are, it would make a lot of sense why you believe what you do. Fact is you have more in common with me than a protestant or catholic does.

while i am studying with them, amazingly i found this out before.

luke 21:[23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

i started to research this gentile ¨times¨

i knew that the next ¨jerusalem¨ would be above (gal 4:26, heb 12:22). literal in that it is real, figurative in that it represented something. but i knew jesus was referring to an actual period of time.

so how long is this.

2 references

leviticus 26:[17] And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
[18] And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
[24] Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
[25] And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

god´s refers to isreal being ruled over by others for 7 times.

daniel 4-
[10] Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
[11] The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
[12] The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.
[13] I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
[14] He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
[15] Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
[16] Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
[17] This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

im sure you are familiar with this passage. it was a vision nebuchadnezzar had. and of course the fulfillment was the babylonian acted like an animal for 7 years while his thrown remained empty

[25] That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

but if you notice the language, it could have a double fulfillment.

from all three passages we get a picture of the ¨gentile times¨. basically isreal would be unfaithful and lose their ¨kingdom¨, ¨7 times¨ would be the length of time this would occur. and then isreal would be restored with a king.

the word ¨times¨ in daniel´s context usually means years, so 7 years. which in the initial fulfillment, it was 7 years the king was like a beast then he was restored.

jewish year was 360 days. 7 x 360 = 2520 days. if you apply day for a year (num14:24, ezek 4:6), you get 2520 years.

so the gentile times would be for 2520 years. this is were my researched ended and i needed help. the next logical question is when does the gentile times start? and this part gets fuzzy

the last king of judah was zedekiah. the babylonians destroyed jerusalem and took prisoner and took the people into exile. ezekial prophecied his fall (ezekial 21:25-27)

there are several dates mentioned depending on who you talk to. some historians point to 586 B.C some say 607 B.C. or 608. some try to for the date 602 or 603. personally i believe its 607 because it corresponds with the pivotal (and confirmed) dates of 539 B.C. when babylon was overthrown and 537 B.C. when jews were allowed to return to jerusalem. its important because god´s people were prophesied that they would be in bondage for 70 years. so 537 BC, go back 70 years and you get 607. either way, ALL the dates point to the early 1900´s

daniel 2 goes into describing the nations that would ¨trample¨ jerusalem.

head of gold - babylon
chest and arms of silver - medo persian empire
belly and thighs - greese
legs of iron - rome

feet were interesting because it was iron (strong like qualities of merciless rome) mixed with clay (human qualities, possibly pointing to democracy) meaning it could be the anglo- american empire.

well the early 1900s came and went and we still have the world we have. so what happened?

notice daniel 2:[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

there is a certain order mentioned here. the stone was cut first, while the statue was standing. then it was thrown. then (in verse35) it became a mountain.

revelations corresponds with this by depicting jesus with crown as he prepares the heavenly armies for war.

depending on the starting point, you can get very precise on the time that jesus was anointed king. personally as i showed before, i believe the starting day was 607. so jesus was appointed king sometime in 1914

rev 12:[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

this first 6 verses depicts the birth of the kingdom (or anointing of jesus). the next verses describe what happens immediately after.

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

1914 the great war breaks out. never has there been a war like it. it shatters the euphoria people had about this new age of ¨enlightenment¨ they were expecting the 1900´s to be. every since things have gone downhill. (i posted some numbers in another thread but i forgot which one lol)

Originally posted by dbates
The best arguement for this of course is the thief on the cross beside Jesus. Please point out the works he did to obtain salvation. There were none. He simply acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and God's son.

technically we wasnt ¨saved¨.

acts 24:[15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

even the other thief on jesus´ other side who said nothing will have the opportunity for salvation AFTER he is resurrected

Originally posted by doctorex
Do you agree that this is saying that in the time of the kings of clay mixed with Iron (the 10 kings/toes/horns of the beast and the harlot), that the time of human kingdoms will end with the return of Christ (the stone) and God will set up a kingdom that will fill the whole Earth? Is it not saying that the stone becomes a mountain (symbolic of a Kingdom) that fills the whole Earth?

the question isnt whether the kingdom rules the earth or not.

GOD, jesus, and the 144,000 CAN rule earth from ¨heaven¨. just like a person in arizona or texas has to obey laws that are created in washington DC right?

jesus is king over all the earth along with the 144,000 under him. this doesnt automatically mean that they have to be ON earth.

Originally posted by doctorex
I don't think either of us has said that they have to be physical, of course they are are going to be spiritual.

im sorry, then i dont understand your claim. i dont understand why or how you think that there arent people going to heaven when there are passages that refer to it.

Originally posted by miriam0566
even the other thief on jesus´ other side who said nothing will have the opportunity for salvation AFTER he is resurrected

Please elaborate on this and how does Hebrews 9:27 play into this thought?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

While it's true that there's no mention of any chance of salvation after death I can't rule it out entirely. Are you speaking of something like purgatory or is there some other way that someone could obtain salvation after their death.

Personally I hope this is true but I don't see the hard evidence for it.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by miriam0566
even the other thief on jesus´ other side who said nothing will have the opportunity for salvation AFTER he is resurrected

Please elaborate on this and how does Hebrews 9:27 play into this thought?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

While it's true that there's no mention of any chance of salvation after death I can't rule it out entirely. Are you speaking of something like purgatory or is there some other way that someone could obtain salvation after their death.

Personally I hope this is true but I don't see the hard evidence for it.

the scripture i referred to before talks about a resurrection. there is this mistaken notion that the soul is immortal, that we just ¨pass on¨. ezek 18:4,10 says that the soul that sins dies. eccl 9:5,10 says that the dead are not conscience.

death is nonexistence. so its logical that in order to undo the ills of man, god would have to have a resurrection. this resurrection applies to everyone who justice demands should get a second chance.

we are imperfect in that we are incapable of following gods commands. it would be unfair to judge us in this state. revelations talks about the dead being gather and books being opened and that THEN they are judged according to their actions.

rev 20:[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

this is AFTER armageddon, AFTER satan is abyssed. which means that people during this time will be able to make clear decisions without satanic influence or propaganda

reply to post by miriam0566

Originally posted by dbates
The best arguement for this of course is the thief on the cross beside Jesus. Please point out the works he did to obtain salvation. There were none. He simply acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and God's son.

Then Miriam says:

technically we wasnt ¨saved¨.

Miriam, it may just be a technicality over "wording", but I believe Salvation is instantaneous. Here are a couple of my proof verses:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (already possesses) eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many more examples here:
www.blueletterbible.org...

I suppose, Miriam, that I need to allow you to define "Salvation"?

I guess I define it similar to "life". Meaning that, although I may have a lot of "life" (years) ahead of me, it is "ok" to say I have (already possess) life. (Even though there may be MORE life ahead of me.)

John 6:54 (above) says that some already possess (hath) eternal life. I guess I define that as "Salvation".

Again, I may just be mistaken on your definition of "Salvation", so I will read your response if you'd like to clarify what you mean?

Thanks!