'But You're A Christian!'

Originally posted by miriam0566
not without religion, without god.

So, without god, you'd be a child molester? I don't believe that.

of what use is a compass in the woods if every time you consult it, you do so with a magnet near it?

The "compass" analogy can be taken too far. That's the benefit, I guess, in not adopting other people's morals.

we are who we hang out with.

Perhaps some people are. But I don't become who I hang out with. I have my own strict set of morals that guides me.

if you desensitize yourself to violence, sex, or lying for example, how can you trust your moral compass?

I have watched hundreds of violent movies, I've been hit, I've read many violent novels and yet, I have never been violent. I have never cheated on a mate and I don't lie. How can I trust my moral compass? Experience tells me that it's working just fine. I have integrity. It seems so easy to me. It's a matter of making the decision and having my honesty and integrity be the most important values that I possess.

I hate to say it but the bible does say being gay is a abomination. But that does'nt mean it cant be forgivein. And I dont think a priest should be able to be gay in the church. I dont believe showing children this is ok. I think a true christian would not promote being gay as ok. But I do believe its forgivable. Go with God.

Originally posted by miriam0566
according to that reasoning, noone does anything wrong ever as long as they believe it is ok.

It's not for me to dictate other people's morals.

people like hitler believed that what they were doing was right. so who says different? where is the line?

Hitler was a Christian. Not the best example.

now certain parts of the bible, you may not agree with, which is fine, its your opinion.

I haven't given my opinion of the bible.

Originally posted by slymattb
I hate to say it but the bible does say being gay is a abomination.

If you study the original Aramaic and Hebrew, it doesn't say that. Only the translations have turned it into that. There was no word for homosexual in Hebrew.

Homosexuality and the Bible

There is no term that means homosexual orientation in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts of the Bible. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation and thus did not write about it. Biblical authors had little or no understanding of same-sex committed relationships. Rather, they assumed that everyone was heterosexual, but that some heterosexuals engaged in sex with persons of the same gender. Thus, when you see one of these words in an English translation of the Bible, it is important to dig deeper and find what the original Hebrew or Greek text really means.

Source

Go with Truth.

Originally posted by whitewave
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I was quoting Benevolent Heretic in one of her earlier posts. Sorry, I don't know how to do that "quote thingie". My response to BH started at the next paragraph. Sorry for the confusion. And yes, you're right, we're all sinners.

Oh, my apologies.

[edit on 23-9-2008 by NOTurTypical]

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth...God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imaginaton of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.....The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Genesis chapter 6)

In answer to the question posed by BH as to whether people would be wife beaters or child molesters if there was no law, I say, Yes, probably. As you mentioned, there are already laws and yet we still have problems with lawlessness. The story in Genesis describes a time before the law was given by God and without moral absolutes there was "only evil continually". This "do what thou wilt" ideaology promulgated by the secular humanist crowd has resulted in an increase in lawlessness, not a decrease as promised.

I'm old enough to remember a time when the prisons were not overcrowded, when people knew their neighbors, when we slept with our doors unlocked and our windows open, when we left the car running, keys in the ignition, purse on the front seat and ran in to grab a quick item from the store. These things are unthinkable now. In ONE generation of "do what thou wilt", "if it feels good do it" lack of moral absolutes.

In one generation 2 entirely new crimes, unheard of before have arisen from the imagination of the hearts of only evil continually: car jacking and drive-by shootings. Besides which, there are certain behaviors that are not conducive to an orderly society regardless of whether you believe them to be innately wrong or not.

This is the problem I see with some triumphantly (in their minds) shouting: "but you're a Christian!". They assume that they are not accountable for their actions because, so far, they haven't really been accountable. It's a hit or miss on accountability for them. I think these people understand that there are consequences for behaviors/actions and when they see Christians (who are held to a higher standard) engaging in behaviors they themselves deem innappropriate, they expect the consequences to be swift and merciless. What these people fail to realize is that this is the age of grace. There will be consequences (for us all). If the Christian has escaped consequences for actions that even the unbeliever knows to be a "sin", the unbeliever deems God to be capricious and unrighteous. This is not the case; He is longsuffering and not willing that any should die but that all should come to Him.

reply to post by whitewave


That is a fascinating perspective about the earlier objection. I've never thought of it that way. In another thread I currently have going, someone else implied that Christians think we can sin as much as we want because of grace. I didn't even bother mentioning my perspective on it since it's been talked about a million times but what I usually tell people who say things like that is this:

Not even people who don't believe in God do such things 'just because they can.' Obvious exceptions excluded, of course, dealing with people of all religions and atheistic beliefs- every group has their weirdos. Anyways, atheists don't run around raping, murdering, and pillaging just because they don't believe in a God they have to answer to one day. Likewise, Christians don't run around raping, murdering, and pillaging just because 'we're saved.'

That is always the way I've answered that but I love your explanation and view on that. It makes a lot of sense. Here is a question, though. We know in the Bible we are told that God literally writes His laws on our hearts. This, of course, is why we believe morals are absolute and not relative- they are our God given conscience. Yet your example is the age before the flood where it says men's hearts were continually evil (and they were) and that the laws were not yet given (and this is also true). However, what is your opinion on when Adam and Eve (therefore before the horror of Noah's day) ate of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That is when most Christians believe we received the 'moral law' or conscience embedded in our hearts. So how would you have that compliment your perspective?

Thanks so much. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

There were 2 trees in the garden of Eden, as you know: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Knowledge can be good or evil and we can choose which knowledge we prefer. It's still from the same tree-the one we weren't supposed to eat from. Good and evil are just 2 horns on the same goat (as my grandma used to say). The tree we were meant to eat from was the tree of life.

Some atheists use the story in Genesis to complain that God wants us to be stupid; without knowledge. That is, of course, ridiculous. Man knew enough to be able to tend a very large garden by himself and to name all the animals. He certainly wasn't stupid. However knowledge of good and evil just set up divisions over which camp is better. The better tree was the tree of life. We were meant to contain the life of God (who is our life) and we chose not to do that. Whether we're filled with good knowledge or evil knowledge (or likely a little of both), it's beside the point: we were supposed to be filled with life. Christ had to make the ultimate sacrifice so we could have another shot at making the correct choice.

well, I'm not a Christian... not completely anyway. I do believe some things in your religion, but not all. There are just some things written in the Bible that just seem to outwardly contradict other scriptures. (i'm falling off topic) Anyway, when I get in heated arguments about religion with other Christians, I'm usually told (at some point or in some form) that I will go to hell, at which point the argument ends and I leave whichever person stated that to be full of themselves for the rest of the day. The region of the US where I live is primarily Catholic, so many discussions end with me being told my different view of the Christian religion would be viewed as Heresy 1000 years ago, at which point they say "You're going to hell" and the argument ends.

On a side note-- since ATS/BTS lets people defend their side of a particular religion, it would be nice to have a few devout Christians look over my core beliefs to see if there's any REAL faults to my beliefs.

Lay them on the table.

The annointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you...(I John2:27)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things...(John 14:26)

I was raised Catholic and when I was 7 we had a visiting bishop come to our "church". I asked him 3 questions pertaining to catholocism and he couldn't give a satisfactory answer, especially when I quoted scripture to him. I knew then that, while there were many devout and good people in the catholic church, that catholocism itself was a system of errors.
Protest-antism isn't much better. Revelation refers to it as the mother of harlots (making alll the denominations that broke away from the "mother church" harlots). Not a ringing endorsement of what Christianity has become. I'm fairly sure Christ never wanted religiosity to take hold. It has been a stumbling stone to many.

Let the barbeque begin, oh ye flamers!

That said, next time you read your bible, read it as though you'd never heard of Christ or ever talked to a Christian. Forget everything you learned in Sunday school and just pray as you read. Bible's a lot more interesting when you sac-religion, dump your concepts and throw out the traditions of men.

reply to post by whitewave



Ummm, excuse me, The Roman Catholic church is the mother of harlots, the first church to be called Christian was at Antioch Syria.

It says so plainly in Acts.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, I believe that was the point I was trying to make. Thank you for stating it more clearly.

Originally posted by whitewave
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, I believe that was the point I was trying to make. Thank you for stating it more clearly.

The way you wrote it appeared that you were labeling Protestantism the "mother of all harlots".

In re-reading it, you're right; I wasn't very clear. RCC is the mother of harlots and the Protest-antism are the harlots. Feel better?

reply to post by whitewave


i think you may have a point there, Ive not thought of that particular thing before. I do think that there are many types of harlots,not just the protestant denominations though

Whilst i believe the original protestants and reformers were men of God like the early church,its has fallen into apostasy and are all going back to Rome.



I believe there are genuine, if mistaken, believers in the RCC and many other denominations. that said i aslo believe that they, and myself, will have to give an account as to why i did not check the scriptures daily.

Oh come quickly Lord!!

david


[edit on 27-9-2008 by drevill]

[edit on 27-9-2008 by drevill]

Originally posted by whitewave
In re-reading it, you're right; I wasn't very clear. RCC is the mother of harlots and the Protest-antism are the harlots. Feel better?

You still are looking at it wrong. This may offend some here, but oh well:

Many Catholic practitioners are the harlots.. these individuals are born from the RCC.

Not the churches who rejected the RCC.

reply to post by drevill


No wonder the unbelievers cry in indignation, "but you're a Christian!" We argue amongst ourselves over trivialities, dogma, rituals, doctrines, etc. ad nauseum. They see a body divided.

I think that when the antichrist comes it will be relatively easy to get the nominal (in name only) Christians to do his dirty work for him. As I stated earlier, "they will kill you thinking they do God's service". If the days were not shortened, even the very elect would be deceived. Satan knows the bible; he quoted scripture to Christ in the desert trying to tempt Him. If we continue to live and move and have our being in the traditions of men then how are we distinguishing ourselves from the unbelievers? How is our light shining in the darkness?

If one is willing to question everything they've been taught about religion (highly recommended), even the very foundational tenets of the faith, one will find Christ buried under the piles of misinformation and outright lies. There's a verse that says, "I am determined to know nothing of you but Christ and Him cricified." First time I read that I thought it was a bit narrow-minded and unnecessarily restrictive. The longer I've been a Christian, the more I've come to understand the reason for such a statement.

There are people in the world, even people on this very board, who are hurting, scared, lost; desparate for answers and a slice of hope. When they finally overcome THEIR own pre-judgments to finally listen to a Christian, what do they hear? Bickering, judgment, and religiosity. (Generalizing here). Did any of us come to Christ because someone showed us the error of our doctrine thinking? I can't speak for anyone else but Christ drew me with his love, acceptance, forgiveness. Still does. As this current evil age draws to a close, I am compelled more every day to pray; to listen more intently to the Shephard's voice so that I don't follow the wrong guy; to reach out to those in need. Hopefully, there will come a day when someone says, "you're a christian" that it will not be spit out as an accusation but will be uttered with admiration.

reply to post by whitewave


Christians are fooling themselves if they think they cannot be deceived

They have been, they are and they will

Adam and eve were deceived, the early church was.

The deception is going on now, people turn up at church listen to new age and walk home without checking what they have been preached, the wolves in the pulpits are being looked upon as messengers of God and
they dance to the tune of the so called evangelicals.

Christians are no longer discerning. They are sheep following the wrong shepherds, how they feel they cannot be deceived is madness.

Christians will shout foul at anything not PC but they will not shout for Christ and have fallen into the many ways to heaven trap already.

Oh my I pray that God opens their ears and eyes so they can look upon the truth and act upon it. I pray they hear the truth and repeat it.

Christians that are being led away in apostasy are the same types that have turned in their brother saints during the troubled years of centuries past and it will happen again.

david

I agree completely. I used to watch the televangelists because they were the best source of comedy on TV. Now I just feel kind of saddened by their antics. "tuch- ah yo hayund to tha skareen and pah-raaaaaay for yo balessin!" I wonder if they take an additional class to learn how to speak like that?

The health and wealth gospel being promulgated from the pulpits is just Santa Claus dressed in a frock. Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee. Do any of the believers ever ask what God wants? Do they ever pray that they may be used by God to accomplish God's goals?

Christ never promised us a rose garden; in fact, quite the opposite. He said he knew what our NEEDS were and would take care of those. Godliness with contentment is great gain. I have a lot to say on this subject but will limit myself for now. As always, I appreciate all the input that helps to raise the bar higher for all of us. S&F to you, OP.

[edit on 27-9-2008 by whitewave]