'But You're A Christian!'

See here is what I see. Most of you know that I am a Pagan. Hopefully most of you know I am not concerned with your faith and am happy you are so steadfast abd faithful. In this exact same context I can agree.

Saying "well you're a crappy Christian is nothing more than beligerent behavior by men and women who have no serious argument. I do not believe Christianity is right and I do have my issues with it. I can defend myself fully without referring to such tactics. (though I am sure I've been guilty a time or two. If I am, I am truly sorry)

What upsets me in this light is when a Christian tells me I am flat wrong, evil, or needing some magical life preserver from God. I am exquisitely happy that Christianity has made those individuals set in life. I want nothing more than for people to be happy and peaceful. What irritates me is that I have to listen to the talk that I am bad and messed up. So when I defnd myself I get screwed as well. I think both sides are equally bashed.

-Kyo

reply to post by AshleyD


Well, I will admit that I can think of a couple of times when I have done the "baiting."

Most of the time it was just joking around with people I knew well, like my mom, and we were just playing around; one that I can remember is a time when she was joshing about telling some kind of white lie and I jokingly asked her if Jesus would do that.

But there have also been times when I have used the "But you're a Christian!" and meant it. I reserve this for cases of great hypocracy, especially those who were adament about their faith and its practices being the right one.

I have never used that line vindictively, because frankly, that kind of kiddish tactic is what they expect of me, and it only plays up to them if I actually act that way.

For instance, when I went to church, the pastor at the time who was found to be embezzling the tithe money.

Or, when I was in school, the kids who would put on the face at church face but then engage in the same sex/drugs/whatever as normal kids.

I think I started a thread about this here once, but I'd venture to say that most non-Christians are so critical of those who choose to follow that faith is that they beleive that those followers should demonstrate that the faith works before insisting that those around them follow it. One thing that I find personally frustrating is that many Christians will overlook any sin whatsoever that their brothers and sisters in Christ commit, saying that it was a momentary lapse in judgement that is henceforth forgiven (even if it is actually an ongoing pattern) but will gladly condemn a person who doesn't follow the faith if they stumble in the same way.

So, I can't say how I handle that, but I can shed some light on what I think the motivation is.

Edit: My avatar is totally tongue-incheek, don't take it personally


[edit on 20-9-2008 by asmeone2]

Thank you again to everyone for their thoughts- both Christians and non Christian members. It is nice to hear everyone's perspective on the issue and to see how things are from the other side.

You know, AshleyD, a dangerous aspect of letting others define your Christian behavior for you is one we may see very soon; the mark of the beast.

If others can guilt you into accepting their standards for your behavior then they can say things like, "doesn't your bible tell you to obey the authorities and submit to them?" In fact, I've had that said to me before. My response is, "Why yes it does. However there is a higher authority to whom we all must answer and if TPTB have overstepped their allowed authority to now include subjugation of my conscience in contradiction to God's word, then I am under no obligation to acknowledge or submit."

We are expressly admonished to not accept the mark of the beast under penalty of the most dire consequences. Which authority will we submit to then?

Just a thought.

reply to post by whitewave


You make an excellent point. I actually HAVE seen that used against Christians as well- 'I am an authority and doesn't your Bible tell you to submit to me, an authority figure?' They miss a HUGE point- never, ever, ever are we required to do such things that go up against God. The Bible is so very clear on this and gives numerous specific examples that it is mind blowing to see it be used- but it does get used. Lightmare on page one briefly touched on such an idea- about this occurrence and how there is more going on than we realize and has end times consequences.

Another member, well ex member now, always referred to it as 'shaming us into better [read: secular] behavior.' Christians are 'sheep' to our Shepherd and our Shepherd only- not to man. And certainly not to man that is against Biblical teachings. Some Christians get mad when an unbeliever can quote the Bible better than they do but the only thing we can really do is become sympathetic. They are who the Bible describes as being 'without excuse.'

Being a 'good Christian' means following God, answering to God, and only following and answering to God. Not secular, fallible man. The Bible is a politically incorrect book and so are its followers if they truly adhere to its teachings.

I am a 'people pleaser' at heart and am always afraid of offending people. There have been times where I, too, have fallen into the trap where it becomes so weary of being the nerd, the holy roller, the social outcast, the Christian loony, that even I start to 'conform' to the world. Then I remember my savior called me out of the world. It's hard because Jesus said we would be hated. It gets old but instead of getting mad, we are told we are blessed when we are persecuted or ridiculed. That is very comforting.

Thanks for sharing. You are an inspiration.

Edit to add: Also, again- this thread is meant to address those manipulative tactics when it is NOT justified (your example about 'a Good Christian' submitting to a Satanic government would be one of them). Not when we truly are drifting away from Christ's teachings and deserve it. It also always, always takes discernment when you get the 'bad Christian' accusation thrown into your face by an unbeliever. They don't realize that being politically incorrect, bold, and stating the truth (sin, the existence of Hell, a choice with only two alternatives- none of which are popular topics to discuss with the unbeliever lol) are part of being a 'good' Christian.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by AshleyD]

I think our reluctance to offend is a double-edged sword. We want to woo unbelievers to the joy and peace that being a Christian affords but our very efforts to woo them are deemed offensive.

I am an unapologetic Christian. When I get the "bad Christian" thrown in my face, I heartily and readily agree. I am fully aware that there are a great many times that I do not please my savior so I turn to Him frequently to address and correct these deficiencies.

Even other Christians who scold and chide are met with a certain indifference. I told one well-meaning Christian when she scolded me over some doctrinal point that "I can't walk in the light you've been shown. I can only walk in the light that I've been shown. If you would have me be enlightened then pray for more light for me." Unfortunately, most Christians don't want to pray, they want to argue. If they do pray it is often from their prejudices (Oh Lord, make so and so come around to my way of thinking, etc.). If it weren't such a sad state of affairs it would be comical.

There are a lot of traditional Christian doctrines that I don't hold as gospel truth-just traditions of men. When I try to "have an answer ready to all who ask...", the conversation rapidly deteriorates into a crusade in which I have to wonder if I'm about to be burned at the stake for my alleged heresy. My dissertations go over like turds in a punchbowl.

Yes, it's painful to be considered pariah by your fellows but who would you rather please: God or man? To me there's no contest. I try to not offend and keep most of my opinions to myself or back off if I see they are not being well-received. It's not just opinions, either, it's actual behaviors and acts. I think we're rapidly approaching a nexus in which Christians are going to have to become comfortable with breaking the law.

When it becomes illegal to own a bible, will you comply? It's already illegal to teach children about God, creation, 10 commandments, etc. in school. Do you consent to this? If not, how will you respond? There will come a time when they kill you, thinking they do God's service. Who will these killers be? Not the "godless"-why would they care about doing God's service? While I hope and pray for all Christians to live in peace and be a light to the world, I suspect that the system of errors known as Christianity will have to implode first. Just as in Yeshua's time, the religious ones were the ones persecuting and killing the true followers of Christ (and Christ Himself), so in our time, Christians/religious zealots will be hunting down the true believers. Will you submit to their "authority"?

We need to be VERY clear in our own minds who we follow. It is literally a matter of life or death; both temporal and eternal.

Originally posted by whitewave
Even other Christians who scold and chide are met with a certain indifference. I told one well-meaning Christian when she scolded me over some doctrinal point...

That is an interesting thing to bring to the conversation- a point I wasn't fully focused on so it is nice you bring it up. Mostly because, I never argue with Christians as long as it is not a salvation issue. lol The rapture doctrine, Bible versions, YEC vs. OEC, free will vs. predestination, etc. But you are correct- it can be pretty bad when it happens. Which is pretty much why I avoid those topics at all costs. It's just a separation of the family as far as my thoughts go on the subject and I strongly disapprove of Christians who become 'cut throat,' divisive, or judgmental when it comes to debating things like that. It's not remotely constructive.

It's always ultimately going to be between us and God. Christians can listen to each other, of course, but ultimately do not answer to each other when it comes down to it. The Bible does say we are to hold each other accountable and that all Scripture is useful for teaching and instruction but on the same token I understand where you are coming from. It should not be used to manipulate each other, either. It again comes down to us answering to only God in the end.

I'm really enjoying reading your posts, BTW.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Here's an amusing little dramatization that reveals what Christians often encounter. Of course it a tiny bit overstated to demonstrate the point. But this is very common behavior.

Yes, we're all one big dysfunctional family. :-)

All scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped to all good works.

Notice it doesn't say the scripture is for subduing your brother for whom Christ died? It's a tool, not a weapon. (although it is sharper than any 2-edged sword).

When I am chastised for some perceived deficiency of character or mein then I immediately check in with the resident boss. If I am convicted to repent and to thank them for pointing out my error then I know it is Christ using another member of the body to achieve the correction. The sheep know the Shephards voice and follow Him. If I'm just instantly irked, it's usually not the Shephard's voice.

I have received some scathing condemnations not at all delivered in the spirit of love and bowed my head in submission because the word (however poorly delivered) was the "rod and staff" of the Shephard. On the other hand, I have received some flattering lies and deceptively enticing temptations that have left me righteously indignant.

I think the whole of our Christian walk during this short time we have in life is designed and orchestrated to accustom us to only asking for Christ's opinion on any and everything.

Not being able to stuff God in a religious box of our choosing, we do have to be open to hear His voice in whatever vessel or media He chooses to speak. I have been convicted from the most innocent of statements made by vagrant, smelly, drunken reprobates who one would not suspect of being (at the moment) an oracle of the Almighty. What can you do but say "amen"?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


LOL! Ok, I will agree with you that it is dramatized but it's also not too far off the mark in some cases. And in some cases, the real life scenarios are even worse. I saw that video about a week ago and it made me think of some things that are loosely relevant to this thread.

Anti-theists are a tough and venomous crowd. They don't simply disbelieve like atheists do but they disbelieve and hate those who do.

They will not let you walk away. They push, push, push, push, and push waiting for that moment you blow so they can use the line, 'Some Christian you are!' Just last night I finally casually stopped in on a thread in the O&C forum (something I try to avoid like the plague since our post ban lol) and met with one such individual. You can't win with them. Their behavior was very reminiscent of the man's behavior in the video. And under no circumstance are you ever allowed to say, 'I don't know the answer to your question,' 'I have no opinion on the matter,' or 'I refuse to engage in further discussion with you due to your behavior.' They thrive on the conflict. It's sad. And if you dare take the bait or fall into their trap after trying to graciously refuse, Heaven only help you. That's just one example, of course, but it happens every day. It's not even always a matter of you erring- they will just create it in their own mind that you did because that is what they desire the reality to be.

I don't think they are aware they are just as guilty of the behavior Christians are often accused of having (judgmental, holier than thou, self righteous, hypocritical, and preachy).

[edit on 9/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Exactly so BW and AshleyD. The hypocrisy is prevalent in such wranglings.

Another anti-Christian rant is the "You're not tolerant. Shouldn't Christians be tolerant?" What hypocrisy! Those spouting such have no tolerance whatsoever for Christian faith. What they're really saying is, "I want you to be tolerant to; (shut up about) my degeneracy while I ridicule, scorn, belittle and generally don't tolerate at all your life choices."

The Puritans enacted legislation in the infacy of our nations founding to silence the Quakers. Quakers were even put to death for their beliefs. What made this hypocrisy so ironic was that the Puritans escaped to this country to avoid religious persecution!

Now we have an advanced form of it in today's anti Christian movement. They call the evil "good" and the good "evil". The bible warned us of such so I'm not unduly bothered by it. It's not really a surprise.

Contrary to the "health and wealth" gospel being promulgated today, Christ had something very different to say about how we will be regarded in a world that is not our home. "You shall have troubles"; "If they hate me, they will hate you"; "You shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake"; "Take up your cross and follow me", etc. Not exactly the free bubble-up and rainbow stew that the TV evangelists have promised us, eh?

I see so many people in today's world hurting, wandering lost and afraid and my heart aches for them. It's worth getting spit on or worse to bring some light into their life. If they hate us, it's because they've been programmed to do so (and partly because some of us have brought it on ourselves). We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers...against SPIRITUAL wickedness in high places.

Know your enemy, know yourself (SunTzu, not scripture).
Know the Lord (scripture)

That's really all we have to know is who/what we're up against, Who's fighting for us and where we stand in the battle. We're not even allowed to criticize or judge ourselves (does the clay say to the potter....) so why would we succumb to the berating of non-christians or nominal christians?

Originally posted by whitewave
Exactly so BW and AshleyD. The hypocrisy is prevalent in such wranglings.

I just went o hear Frank Turek speak (author of I Don't Have enough Faith tobe an Atheist).

He said if you get called a hypocrite for being a Christian . Say of course we are - and we always have room for one more. So why don't you come on down to church?" We know we are hypocrites that's why we know we need a savior. If you are not hypocrite your standards are too low

Contrary to the "health and wealth" gospel being promulgated today, Christ had something very different to say about how we will be regarded in a world that is not our home. "You shall have troubles"; "If they hate me, they will hate you"; "You shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake"; "Take up your cross and follow me", etc. Not exactly the free bubble-up and rainbow stew that the TV evangelists have promised us, eh?

If you get time this is an amazing message on this topic.

John MacAuthur

[edit on 9/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by AshleyD

Anti-theists are a tough and venomous crowd. They don't simply disbelieve like atheists do but they disbelieve and hate those who do.

After a sermon on the parable of the sower, I decided to stop wasting my time sowing seeds on concrete. That's also part of the reason I've been scarce around here. But I've been bearing fruit in my ministry on youtube. And I developed a lot of my material right here on ATS. Trial by fire will help you to learn to communicate and defend your beliefs.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I will be honest and admit to getting pretty irritated when the, 'Some Christian you are!' card is used

After reading this the first thing that came to mind was...




True, as Christians we set the standard higher, but the loathing that appears upon any perceived weakness or failure is probably related to envy, jealousy, or fear. Basically the anti-Christian crowd loves for you to fail so that they feel better about their state or the condition of their soul. Of course we both know that the failure or success of another has nothing to do with your own personal morals or standards. Not when the standard itself is not another person.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I decided to stop wasting my time sowing seeds on concrete. That's also part of the reason I've been scarce around here.

I disagree. We don't have any idea what effect the "meaningless" posts we make will have. I don't see the quality being any less or greater than an effort made on Youtube. It's just different.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by AshleyD
This is mainly addressed to Christians but everyone's thoughts on the subject are more than welcome.

I have to say, I've played the "Some Christian You Are" card before. When people put forth their way of life as the "right" way to live and everyone else's way of life is "wrong", then I think they're putting themselves in a position of "righteousness". Some (not all) Christians are very SELF-righteous when it comes to their religious or spiritual beliefs and make it no secret that they KNOW the truth and others do not.

I don't have any problem with Christians choosing their way of life. Not at all. I think it's great that people can find something that makes them feel fulfilled and happy. But when they preach a certain set of "Rules" that we all should follow and then don't follow those rules themselves... I think they invite the criticism of "Some Christian You Are", because it becomes a state of hypocrisy.

A person who tries to follow their religion and sometimes fails is hardly the same as a person who preaches to others how "wrong" they are for their choices in life and then makes those same choices themselves. In other words, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Some Christians (and I'm talking about the ones I've played the card with) cast those stones freely, living in self-righteousness, telling others how wrong they are and then think they should be immune from charges of hypocrisy. And I say, if you don't want to be called a hypocrite, stop trying to impose the rules of your religion/beliefs on everyone else.

If you ARE going to take the position that your beliefs are "right" and those who disagree are "wrong", AND you make the choice to impose your religious rules on others, then you're going to hear people call you on the rules you insist they follow. You (generic) can't sit back and tell everyone the "right" way to live and push it on them and then expect to be immune from criticism when you don't follow the rules yourself.

In my experience, people of every belief system are challenged for their beliefs, whether religious or not. It's part of stating your beliefs. Once you put them out there for inspection, likely someone is going to say something about it. And if you take a hard line and say that all people should believe as you do, and follow the rules you do, then you should expect it to be pointed out, when you don't follow them. And I'll go further and say that you should expect criticism even when you do. Because you are setting the rules for everyone, you're placing your beliefs above others'.

On the other hand, if you put your beliefs out there and say that you try hard to live up to your own standards, and don't push them on people, people are more likely to be understanding and even encouraging when you fall short.

Let me ask you, Ashley. What is appropriate to say (or think) when I see a cartoon like the one Dbates posted that shows someone with high standards (in this case Christians) trying hard to meet his standards, but faltering as opposed to someone (in this case non-Christians) supposedly having very low standards, easily met, calling the Christian a hypocrite?

The first thing that comes to mind is "How very Christian of him to judge non-Christians as having low standards." And he completely 100% seems to believe that non-Christians have low standards and Christians have high standards. I can't tell you how messed up I think that is.

The second thing that comes to mind is... If I can see that his assumptions in the cartoon are "not very Christian-like", being judgmental, hateful and contemptuous of non-Christians, and he thinks it's just fine, then whose standards are really low here?

IS that Christian-like behavior? (rhetorical) Because that's not what I learned Christians are about. I mean, I can't see Jesus posting that cartoon. I can't see him boasting about his high standards and blatantly indicating that those who don't follow him are "beneath" him or have low standards. I mean, that's not how Jesus acted. Not with Mary Magdeline, not with Judas, not with any of the "sinners" he knew... He was loving, compassionate and patient.

I'm not going to call Dbates on his cartoon, because his opinion of non-Christians doesn't really matter to me. But I think it's pretty easy to see where the label of "hypocrite" comes from in some cases.

Bottom line, if you (generic) want people to be encouraging and understanding when you miss your mark, stop trying to get everyone on YOUR mark. If you insist on your beliefs being right for everyone, then get used to being called out on it.

That's just how I see it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not going to call Dbates on his cartoon,

Why not? If I put it out there it's fair game for shooting.

I don't think that non-Christians are immoral automatically or that Christians are better for trying to follow Christ's teachings. What I do see is the application of shame to a Christian for acts that are considered acceptable to non-Christians. For example, society praises certain individuals for participating in homosexual activities, yet condemns others for the same act. Ellen DeGeneres obtains hero status by marrying her lover. She's on the cover of every magazine I see in the check-out lines as some sort of status symbol for forward thinking. On the other hand Ted Haggard gets grilled and served up with fries by the main stream media for participating in the same acts.

Haggard admits ‘sexual immorality,’ apologizes

DeGeneres, de Rossi planning ‘dream wedding’

That is exactly the attitude I'm speaking of. On one hand there are 'gay' parades but on the other hand it's a put-down to call someone 'gay'. Swearing is funny when Chris Rock does it, but wrong if a Christian says the same words. Drinking beer is all-American, but guess what I saw brother John doing last week? Drinking a beer.

Which is it? Labels are given the green or red-light depending on who is wearing them or who is using them. That is the essence of being a hypocrite.

EDIT: I think a lot of this is a general misunderstanding of what Christianity is. It IS NOT a club for the elite or a religion for those with higher standards. What it is is a religion that at it's center focuses on how hopeless everyone is. The central theme is that men can NEVER please God. It is impossible, but through the sacrifice of one man. Jesus was the only one who ever met the standard.

The failure of individuals to meet goals is not an indication that the goal is wrong.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by dbates
Ellen DeGeneres obtains hero status by marrying her lover... On the other hand Ted Haggard gets grilled and served up with fries by the main stream media for participating in the same acts.

It's not Haggard's homosexual acts people object to. It's his hypocrisy. He preached against homosexuality, condemning gay people while he, himself was practicing it. That's why he got grilled.

As far as I'm concerned, I feel compassion for the man because he's troubled. He is who he is, but his religious beliefs contradict him. I don't envy the man. He must be in turmoil. But I do think that if he's going to preach that being gay is wrong, then he shouldn't be engaging in homosexual activity. Either that or give up preaching, which I believe he has done. I hope he can get some peace.

Swearing is funny when Chris Rock does it, but wrong if a Christian says the same words.

By whose judgment is it "wrong"? The Christian has said it's wrong. If a person rails against Chris Rock for his language and then turns around and unleashes a string of profanity, it's not what he does that's wrong, but the hypocrisy in his actions.

What it is is a religion that at it's center focuses on how hopeless everyone is.

That's fine. If you choose Christianity for your religion and want to follow it, I have absolutely no problem with it. It's your life, your choice.

I'm far from hopeless. I am joyful. From my perspective, there is much hope and joy and love in which to participate for us all. My moral standards are quite high and I falter sometimes, too. And that's really my business. It's not my place to hold others to my standards, and I don't. But I can be pretty sure that the people who are hearing the "But You're A Christian" card are those who have condemned others for not following the rules of THEIR religion in the past.

The failure of individuals to meet goals is not an indication that the goal is wrong.

I agree completely. But a person's goals are THEIR goals. And if they impose their goals on others, they should be aware that that opens them up for criticism.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thanks so much for your reply. It's always a pleasure to see your thoughts in a thread like this.

First of all, it actually is Christ like behavior and scriptural for a Christian to say my religion is 'right' and yours is 'wrong.' It's not popular, it's not politically correct, but it is in line with Jesus' teachings who said He is the way, the truth, and the life and nobody comes to the Father except through Him. He is the narrow gate. Jesus was the one to say He was the ONLY way so for Christians to say anything else or something along the lines of 'all paths lead to God' is actually against what Jesus Himself said. If I said anything else, I'd be lying about what I believe, not to mention very un-Christ like. Not to mention it wouldn't be doing any favors to those I loved and wanted to lead to Christ. It would be a lie.

The Bible is politically incorrect, Jesus was politically incorrect, and if we truly follow His teachings, we, too, will be very politically incorrect.

However, I think the point where it becomes un-Christ like is when we actually use it as a tool of, like you said, SELF righteousness. Or as a weapon to look down our noses at the unbeliever. Or, as you also implied, not practicing what we preach. Nobody likes a hypocrite, regardless of what banner they're flying. That's for sure.

As for your questions about Dbate's cartoon, I see nothing wrong with it or 'judgmental.' I do not see it as judgmental in the sense of Dbates' looking down his nose at anyone. However, I do see it as (and this is also scripturally allowed), as him having an opinion on behavior he has witnessed.

I mean no offense but I actually take issues with your taking issues with Dbates' cartoon and considering it 'judgmental.' It looks like there is a thin line between 'judgement' and 'opinions.' Christians are absolutely supposed to have opinions, discernment, and make 'judgment' calls. We are also told to, much to the chagrin of nonbelievers, speak out against things we see as wrong. We often get labeled as hypocrites for doing so or end up on the receiving end of the 'judge not lest ye be judged' passage by those who don't understand what Christians are assigned to do here.

Dbates came to a conclusion regarding what he saw. That is something he is absolutely more than entitled to- even commanded to do. Jesus set the bar high for us. It's a hard road and a challenge but that's the way it is. However, the unbeliever is all too often very quick to jump in and say, 'Hypocrite!' just like the cartoon depicts.

That's not looking down my nose at anyone- that is me looking at what I see in the world and coming to a conclusion. Christians are allowed to have opinions and where the 'problem' seems to lie is within Jesus' warning- our opinions are not going to be popular according to the world's standards. In fact, we will be hated for it.

This hasn't happened to me in a while but it does happen from time to time. I've seen Christians on ATS told to 'log off and go to church.' Or blasted for having an opinion on a topic and then become accused of being judgmental (when they weren't remotely). Well, I'm sorry but we are entitled to that and are even encouraged Biblically to do so.

In a recent thread dealing with Jesus' historicity, there was a very hostile member who called several Christians 'idiot' multiple times. When I took issues with this behavior, someone actually had the chutzpah to tell me his behavior was essentially acceptable but the Christians were hypocrites if they did the same. This was because the standard bar was set low for the unbeliever but we all know the standards Christians are set for us. That is pretty much what his statements boiled down to. It was interesting to see how an unbeliever viewed it and was bold enough to admit to it. I'm not complaining, though. To complain about the situation would be to complain about the standard Jesus set.

So I think it all comes back to the attitude and not theopinion. This is an example I left last night in another thread when someone asked me about the 'judge not' passage.

A statement perfectly aligned with scripture: Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. The only options are Jesus and Heaven or denial of Jesus and Hell.
A statement that goes against Christ's teachings: You dirty rotten hell bound heathen.

And just to be sure because I have had to reiterate this a couple times: This thread isn't so much dealing with those incidences where Christians are truly out of line and are displaying an un-Christ like attitude. I'm referring to the incidences where it is completely unjustified because we are bold, standing up for what we believe, speaking out against sin (and not in the manner where we would be considered a hypocrite for doing so and non in an un-Christ like manner), engaging in debate where our opponent is getting owned by the facts, making grounded judgment calls, having an opinion on a controversial issue, etc., only to be told we are a 'bad Christian' when were are doing EXACTLY what Jesus implored us to do.

I have so much more to say but I'll hold off for now.

[edit on 9/22/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by dbates
EDIT: I think a lot of this is a general misunderstanding of what Christianity is. It IS NOT a club for the elite or a religion for those with higher standards. What it is is a religion that at it's center focuses on how hopeless everyone is. The central theme is that men can NEVER please God. It is impossible, but through the sacrifice of one man. Jesus was the only one who ever met the standard.

I totally agree with this. I understand some unbelievers will feel this is a cop-out but it is a biblical principle: Christians are not perfect, only forgiven. We've all heard that saying a million times to the point where it becomes cliche but that is what Christianity is about. Not being perfect but being perfected through Christ. Realizing we all fall short, humbling ourself, and accepting Christ's standards. The challenge becomes living up to them because we love Him even though we will undoubtedly stumble sometimes.

You know how the bible descrbes a "righteous man"? A righteous man falls 7 times and rises again. A righteous man is one who, no matter how many times he falls off the path, rises again on the path and keeps going. It's very frustrating for that falling man to entice others to walk with him. I'm sure he keeps hearing about his failings as a power walker on the path. Still, he was considered "righteous".

The bible is replete with men of God who were scoundrels, blatant sinners, drunkards, etc. yet they kept getting up to walk on the path. Their names are immortalized in the word of God, yet the names of their detractors are not.