Why do people laugh at creationists?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I've been a christian for more than 10 years. I have not seen anything to convince me of anything, just a lot of indoctrination and empty promises.
Now I'm agnostic.

Normally I'm a lot more civil but your bigoted intolerance of atheism angers me.

reply to post by Good Wolf

And what do you christians have?

For all to see?

66 books by over 40 different authors most of whom never met each other - written over a period of almost 2000 years, with an amazing integration of message. Accurately and precisely predicting the future through hundreds of fulfilled Biblical prophecies - proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible's origin is from out side of our space time domain.

I takes very serious study. But it's all there for those who earnestly seek.

There are also very surprising things for those who look deeper....

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I do believe a reverent sincere and humble approach to God will result in him revealing himself to you in a way that is personal and undeniable.

This is about the only thing you've said that I can agree with.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Good Wolf

 

But they have examined the bones of crucification victims and the damage has been found in the feet and wrists. Also, Roman records confirm this.

Well I was just watching a doco on stigmata. They have only found one bone with the nail in it and that was an ankle. They didn't mention and documentation.

They did go over heaps of methods to fake it.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I see. I think I understand now. Christians can perform the miracles of Christ, just not in front of skeptics, because God doesn't want us to have any evidence to help us believe in Him and his Son.

Either we "get it" from the words of a 2000-year-old book, with all of its inconsistencies, contradictions, and gaps, and accept it on faith alone, or we fry in Hell for eternity.

What a wonderful loving "Father!"

The thing is, though, I would think that if Christians could heal the sick when they're among only other Christians - like in Church services - there wouldn't be so many Christians dying of diseases.

Back when I was a Christian I went to a healing service done by a local man who was quite famous. Got up on the stage with some other people, appeared on TV, the whole nine yards. At the time, I sincerely believed and sincerely wanted the healing but the laying on of hands and those thousands of people praying didn't do a thing for me. I guess I didn't have enough faith, or this famous "healer" didn't, or maybe God knew I was going to lose my faith and refused to let me be healed ...

There are always reasons why the answers to these questions aren't what we think they should be, and why God doesn't work according to logic or meet human expectations. Unfortunately, most of the reasons sound about as convincing to me as "my dog ate my homework."

reply to post by Clearskies


I would say he was never really saved or the Holy Spirit would bring him to his knees. Hey I'm outta here I just wanted to reply to you.

I'll u2u you.

Originally posted by Clearskies
I think you are dealing with a lot of anger.

Yes, I do have some anger. But it doesn't rule me. And it's not directed at God. At least not at my concept of God.

I have issues with people who believe that their way is the only 'right' way. I have issues with people who label 70% of the world's population as "heathens." I have issues with people that want to force me to live according to their beliefs and "know" that I am immoral or evil or "deceived by Satan" because I don't share their beliefs. I have issues with people who label me and ostracize me and try to cause me harm just because I am not a Christian. I have issues with people who tell me that I must be angry because I try to apply the logic and reason which you will say are God-given to a religion and find it wanting.

In my various positions working with troubled children, I have met some pretty "bad" kids, and in my participation in 12-step programs I've met some pretty "bad" people. I'm just a flawed human being with lots of problems and an impaired capacity for loving relationships due to neglect in infancy and childhood abuse. BUT, if I were sitting on God's throne, I couldn't sentence any of them to eternal torture. End their existence if I truly believed they were not redeemable .. maybe. But eternal torture? No. So how could a God whose love and compassion are so much greater than mine do it? How could a God who created me and loves me as his child do that to me?
Ultimately, that is the "bottom line" for me. If God's love for me is less than my love (or compassion?) for my fellow man, then he doesn't deserve to be my God.

Men have laws against cruel and unusual punishment, but apparently God doesn't have a problem with it.

reply to post by Heike


That reminds me of a conversion story I heard today on the 700 club.
This guy who had been raped by other children in an orphanage, became a musician and satanist.
He was VERY ANGRY.
He was sitting one morning in a cafe. (Very burly and mean-looking guy)
This guy comes in and sits down next to him, even though there is plenty of space everywhere else. He looks at the stranger guy with a mean look and said hey, dad.(in a smart-alec way)
The other guy said something like how's it going dad, the mean guy gets in his face and calls him a thus-and-so and lots more.
The stranger then tells him that God wanted him to know that He loved him and what had happened to him as a child wasn't God's fault, he even named the offending boys!
It took a little time, but the guy got saved and like me, his life became a new, beautiful experience.

God knows how to let people know of His invitation to His love, it's up to them to accept it or not.

[edit on 25-9-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


No. That's unacceptable. You don't know me, you don't know what I've done or haven't done. I have gone to Church. I have not only read the Book but I've studied the Book. I've attended Bible studies and Sunday School classes. In fact, once upon a time I taught Sunday School classes.

Time for your vocabulary lesson:

Contempt:
1. the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
2. the state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.

I have expressed disagreement, doubt, disbelief, and presented points of discussion that explain my doubt and disbelief. I have not stated or implied scorn or disdain or said that I despise anything.

I have done my investigation, and I do not have contempt.

In good debate the participants discuss the points presented, they do not express negative/derogatory opinions about the person they are debating.

In order to receive any further response from me you will need to return to discussion of the topic instead of your (incorrect) opinions of me.

HI THERE PEOPLE!

...hi...can we please remember to adhere to the usual accepted norms of discussion/debate: Attack the post, not the poster.

Lets keep the personal side-jabs out of it thanks.

I've gone through and editted out some of the jabs and snarky comments - so lets just stick to the topic from now on okay. Hate to have to start pinging people with Warns.


Cheers,
ALIEN

[edit on 25-9-2008 by alien]

reply to post by Clearskies


Pardon me, Clearskies, but I'm confused now.

I asked how a loving God could condemn his children to the cruel and unusual punishment of eternal torture.

You posted a story about a man who needed to be told that God wasn't to blame for his poor treatment at the hands of other humans.



Were they supposed to be related somehow?

reply to post by Clearskies


Psychotherapy could have achieved the same results, in a more controlled fashion. God wasn't necessary for any of that. In fact, it could have massively back-fired, as nothing in his past has been solved - it's just been painted over by an escape labelled 'God'. Brilliant.

And why did God let a bunch of kids rape this guy in the first place? Sick bastard.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
You will be judged on your response to creation and the gospel

If this happens, my response will be to ask God why he gives us no evidence of his words and then sends people to Hell for making logical decisions based on the conclusion of the data.

If he still sends me to eternal torment, then I will know that the problem lies with the judge and no one else.

Tell me, would you send someone to eternal torture for making a logical decision based on facts?

Fact: There is no evidence of the extraordinary events in the Bible.
Fact: Many events such as Noah's ark are impossible.
Fact: There are too many contradictions in God & the Bible to count.
Fact: There is a lack of what Jesus said his followers would do. There is no healing the sick or raising the dead. Only stories. Funny no one has a camera when such things happen. Funny no one can document such things.

If people can perform miracles, then they could document them through science. Why spend the whole time scamming the community of 10% when you can convert everyone through evidence? I and any other atheist I know would recant our beliefs if there was evidence such as this.

[edit on 26-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

Come on guys....

Religion is entirely, absolutely entirely a matter of FAITH.
There is no way anybody who is religious can prove to somebody who is not, that either god exists, that he ever did exist or that he is at work today in the world.

As i always say, he(god) was so active in the bible....Smiting people, warning people and instructing them....then....Nothing for all these years.
never once has he bellowed out of heaven or killed any gays or rapists or evil doers (sodom and gomorrah) or any such thing.

The point is that religion (apart from rituals and doctrines) exist ENTIRELY in the head of the believer, No proof has ever been presented otherwise, There is no way any proof could be presented.

It is a form of mass/mind control, Forced on people, relatively gullible people i might add, thousands of years ago for CONTROL, nothing else.
In this day and age, people are not so easily led and are breaking free from the lie and the deception.
People are able to think critically about almost every aspect of their lives.....except religion...?

Why is that?


Arrrgghh, have to go...but will be back

reply to post by blupblup


Here's a key point, that to me demonstrates that the bible (and therefor god et al) are man-made: The bible tells us of heaven. Surely that should be a secret eternal gift to those who are actually good for the right reasons. Because God blurted it out, it means anyone can get in to heaven if they just act good - meaning the bible is intended to get people to act nicely, not actually to be nice.

That has man written all over it. Because they didn't have a police force or law courts, they concocted a story that would explain why you have to obey these laws. The writers of the bible intended people to conform, not to be good. And here we are, thousands of years later, and people are still clinging to this ridiculous book.

It's sickening.

reply to post by TruthParadox


No, sorry. You are not understanding my point at all. I am not even endorsing the teleological argument at the moment. It is simply an example of a logical argument for the existence of God that I knew you would have some issues with. It was only an example.

While looking through your comments, I kept seeing flawed premises and contradicting logic over and over again. But I'd answer your questions anyways to be met with ten more.... ten more... ten more... then I came to back to the thread only to see two more novel-length comments back to back addressed to me with many new arguments, all logically flawed in some way. Instead of wearing myself out and inducing a migraine with a conversation that would never end, I wanted you to take a step back to contemplate your own logic.

This is just one example. You say that it is some psychological phenomenon that the longer a person believes in God, the more they feel God. You think this means it's all in their head. Sorry but this is not logical. It would be like me saying the longer I know my best friend, the better I know him and the closer we become. By your logic, my friend does not exist. Another example: due to God's infinite nature, He cannot create anything. Sorry but that makes no sense and is a paradox of pantheism, if anything at all.

Instead of answering 20 more questions only to be met with ten more... ten more... ten more.... and breaking down everything in detail to show the false assumptions and illogical premise, I gave you an example of the teleological argument (something I knew you would not agree with) to try to get you to take a step back and actually examine your 'contradictions' yourself instead of killing myself over answering them all.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Sorry, Wolf. You don't have a leg to stand on accusing a Christian of being intolerant of your views without looking hypocritical. I think if you go back and look at some of the posts you have been making to me in this thread as well as some of the jabs you made at me, my faith, and my Bible yesterday in U2U, it seems really silly for you now to get upset with a Christian member who is criticizing your atheistic faith and then label them 'intolerant.' Something to think about.

I'm not judging you at all- I'm just very weary of seeing religious people ridiculed, insulted, and jabbed at left and right around here only to see the 'persecuted atheist' card played when their views come under question.

Let's all try to play nice, is what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Now that is freaking fascinating. lol I watch all your videos as you publish them. No clue how I missed that one when you launched it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
You don't have a leg to stand on accusing a Christian of being intolerant of your views without looking hypocritical.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree and disagree with this statement. Accusing a Christian, no. Accusing Christianity in general, yes. Here's an example of why I feel this way. I have a gay friend named Kevin. He and his partner Paul were together for more than 25 years and truly and deeply loved each other. When Paul came out to his family, who were Christian, they disowned him and never spoke to him again. Not one contact in those 25 years. He kept sending birthday and Christmas cards to them hoping things would change, but they never did. One day Paul just keeled over with a stroke and went into a coma. The hospital had to notify his family, as next of kin. They showed up, banned his 'fag' (the word his brother actually used to Kevin's face) partner, Kevin from visiting him, and did not allow Kevin or any of Paul's 'fag' friends to attend the funeral, which they did not attend either.

The Defense of Marriage Act, and the proposed constitutional amendment which were initiated by the religious right are proof of this. To me it seems downright inhuman. After a life filled with love, Paul died alone. I saw a tee-shirt that to me sums up this whole debate... 'Don't like Gay Marriage, Don't Marry One!'. But this is just one example of religious intolerance. Like I said, I don't judge one Christian, but Christianity, as well as some other religions, do deserve some of the 'intolerance' speak. Jesus said 'Love your neighbor as yourself', something I do agree with. I do completely agree with what you said at the end of the post:

Let's all try to play nice, is what I'm saying.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


That would drag us totally off topic lol so this is all I am going to say: I do NOT believe in what that family did to Kevin.

My brother is also gay and I come from an uber Bible believing family. He is VERY much loved by us all. To us he is just 'Seth' and not 'the gay family black sheep.' He 'came out' about twelve years ago and although it was hard and he knows our beliefs about homosexuality, he is just as much a part of our family as the rest of us.

So your example is not Christianity as a whole- it is that family and other families who treat their gay loved ones like that. I do not agree with their treatment of him at all.

reply to post by AshleyD


Actually, to be quite fair, I find that as a species, we tend to be intolerant of others who believe differently than ourselves, be it in religion, politics or what have you. Character flaw of the masses, not the individual. Maybe that is the ultimate answer to the question posed in this thread.

ED. spelling

[edit on 26-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]